April 2017 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] Smalltalk Internet Browser

by nacho

A thoughtful description Mr. Kilon, couldn't agree more. Even if the solution is based in node/v8 or derivate technologies like electron it will be a nightmare to integrate that. And IMHO, electron should be killed!! It's really a bad bad idea. You have like 10 single apps that run a full V8/node stack. Atom, Discord, LightTable, Chrome itself...it's so RAM & CPU consuming. For me it is like saying that a desktop application is pure front-end development. best ----- Nacho Smalltalker apprentice. Buenos Aires, Argentina. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Smalltalk-Internet-Browser-tp4944879p4944954.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

April 30, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] Smalltalk Internet Browser

by Dimitris Chloupis

Beyond the barrier of this being a huge vaporware effort, bare in mind that a large percentage of Browsers are implemented in C/C++ for performance reasons. In the cases of Firefox and Chrome its 50% in both cases that is made in C/C++. https://www.openhub.net/p/firefox https://www.openhub.net/p/chrome So immediately that means you have 3 options 1) Code it yourself/ your team in C/C++ that 50% 2) Use the existing code bases of either Firefox or Chrome 3) Code it all in pure Pharo (3) is the most attracting for Pharo devs and it will really prove that Pharo can make a Internet browser but you can forget about it. Pharo is around 10-50 times slower than C/C++ and if we take into account that Firefox alone can easily eat alive a quad core cpu and 1GB of memory , numbers that are unheard of to Pharo developer in large , it make the use of Pharo a non choice. So he erase (3) from the list. (1) Code it yourself C/C++ is again not doable since we are talking about milions and millions of lines of code , that means your browser will end up being 3-10 times larger to Pharo itself. Good luck with that. (2) is your realistic options that 50% that is coded in C/C++ will save you quite a lot of developing time and give you the performance you need but even this option comes with huge drawbacks of having to wrap millions and millions of lines of code so Pharo can have access to it, you could automate it to an extend but still A TON of work. Also do not be misled by that 50% if you think it covers 50% of the features, it does not. I would not be surprised if it covers 80-90% of the features so its not the 50% you can ignore or not focus on. Simply put Pharo is not a language designed for high performance coding. Bare in mind that we only recently got 64 bit support , something that would make C/C++ developers laugh. Not to exclude the sheer number of tools that C/C++ have that can debug and optimise code especially when it comes to memory management. We talking here not about 5-10 tools/libraries but an entire universe of options. I am not saying that Pharo is a bad language by any means. We would laugh at C/C++ coders with the way they try to implement OOP or dynamic coding. Pharo is amazing for low performance coding and if you want to quickly put together applications on the fly. If you want to do something realistic then your best bet will be to assist the PharoJS folks because the number one thing you need to even got the attention of web devs is excellent JS , HTML and CSS support out of the box. An area that I have worked with Pharo is IPC (Inter Process Communication) that makes it possible for Pharo to communicate with any software and language and use any tool, any library of any language etc. Embedding a browser inside Pharo could be beneficial for the community under a single scenario. Abandoning Morphic and Bloc and moving to QT. I know this is enough to start people throwing tomatoes at me but I do believe it would be of immense value to Pharo. QT is de facto THE KING of GUIs , not only QT can embed a browser , OpenGL contexts it can also embed itself inside mobile apps and web apps. Its an extremely powerful API that will open the doors for us to all enviroments and OSes, web dev, iOS, Android, Macos, Windows, Linux etc. But realistically this will never happen because it will require for Pharo devs to start coding in C++ to wrap QT for Pharo (its a C++ lib) and then they will stop throwing tomatoes at me and start throwing knifes and I would not even blame them. Good luck with anything you decide doing you are going needs tons of it and tons of patience.

April 30, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] Problem with FileSystem in WIndows

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

> On 30 Apr 2017, at 09:48, Max Leske <maxleske(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi Casimiro, > > have you tried using normal slashes in the path name? FileSystem should convert those to system path delimiters automatically. So: > > C:/temp/e8720bb4-b90a-0d00-9b1f-008709e5552b.txt > > And possibly you'll need a leading slash, as "C:" is a reference to the root of the file system: > > /C:/temp/e8720bb4-b90a-0d00-9b1f-008709e5552b.txt There is also the following option: FileLocator C / 'temp' / 'e8720bb4-b90a-0d00-9b1f-008709e5552b.txt' > Cheers, > Max > >> On 30 Apr 2017, at 03:15, Casimiro de Almeida Barreto <casimiro.barreto(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Good night all. >> >> IÂ´ve had trouble in windows concerning FileSystem. >> >> ((FileSystem disk root) / âC:\temp\e8720bb4-b90a-0d00-9b1f-008709e5552b.txtâ) delete >> >> Fails as if the file didnÂ´t exist. Message: >> >> FileDoesNotExist: Path / âC:\temp\e8720bb4-b90a-0d00-9b1f-008709e5552b.txtâ >> >> And I wonder whatÂ´s wrong. Because it works in linux and MacOS. >> >> Trasncript show: ((FileSYstem disk root) / âC:\temp\e8720bb4-b90a-0d00-9b1f-008709e5552b.txtâ) >> >> Returns: >> >> File @ C:\temp\e8720bb4-b90a-0d00-9b1f-008709e5552b.txt\ >> >> And I wonder where the last \ came from and if is it that is messing all and how to fix things. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Casimiro Barreto >> >> Livre de vÃrus. www.avast.com. >

April 30, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] Smalltalk Internet Browser

by phil＠highoctane.be

An interesting way would rather do something like electron. https://electron.atom.io/ In fact, I would even go so far as to add Pharo to electron. Phil On Sun, Apr 30, 2017 at 1:34 AM, nacho <0800nacho(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Did you tried Amber? > Is Smalltalk on the browser. > I believe that what you mean is embedding the V8 engine into Pharo. But > man, thats a huge work. Really... > my 2c. > > > *Lic. Ignacio Sniechowski, MBA* > *Prosavic SRL* > â* (5411) 4542-6712* > ð±* (54911) 6749-4721* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 7:53 PM, askoh [via Smalltalk] <[hidden email] > <http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=4944920&i=0>> wrote: > >> We means all communities of Smalltalk environments. Pharo is of course >> the biggest, hence my post here first. I am verifying the soundness of the >> idea of SIB and then do a student project on it. I am from the VisualWork >> community. I look forward to porting freeCAD: 3D CAD with Motion Simulation >> to Pharo when it has 64bit version on Windows. >> >> Aik-Siong Koh >> >> Denis Kudriashov wrote >> 2017-04-29 19:00 GMT+02:00 askoh <[hidden email] >> <http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=4944919&i=0>>: >> >> > We start out by embedding Chrome inside the IDE. Make them communicate >> > well. >> > We then port bit by bit to Smalltalk based on needs and priorities. >> > >> >> I am wondering, when you said "we" what you mean? Did you found team to >> work on such project? >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion >> below: >> http://forum.world.st/Smalltalk-Internet-Browser-tp4944879p4944919.html >> To start a new topic under Pharo Smalltalk Developers, email [hidden >> email] <http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=4944920&i=1> >> To unsubscribe from Pharo Smalltalk Developers, click here. >> NAML >> <http://forum.world.st/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=macro_viewer&id=instan…> >> > > Nacho Smalltalker apprentice. Buenos Aires, Argentina. > > ------------------------------ > View this message in context: Re: Smalltalk Internet Browser > <http://forum.world.st/Smalltalk-Internet-Browser-tp4944879p4944920.html> > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive > <http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html> at > Nabble.com. >

April 30, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] Problem with FileSystem in WIndows

by Max Leske

Hi Casimiro, have you tried using normal slashes in the path name? FileSystem should convert those to system path delimiters automatically. So: C:/temp/e8720bb4-b90a-0d00-9b1f-008709e5552b.txt And possibly you'll need a leading slash, as "C:" is a reference to the root of the file system: /C:/temp/e8720bb4-b90a-0d00-9b1f-008709e5552b.txt Cheers, Max > On 30 Apr 2017, at 03:15, Casimiro de Almeida Barreto <casimiro.barreto(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Good night all. > > IÂ´ve had trouble in windows concerning FileSystem. > > ((FileSystem disk root) / âC:\temp\e8720bb4-b90a-0d00-9b1f-008709e5552b.txtâ) delete > > Fails as if the file didnÂ´t exist. Message: > > FileDoesNotExist: Path / âC:\temp\e8720bb4-b90a-0d00-9b1f-008709e5552b.txtâ > > And I wonder whatÂ´s wrong. Because it works in linux and MacOS. > > Trasncript show: ((FileSYstem disk root) / âC:\temp\e8720bb4-b90a-0d00-9b1f-008709e5552b.txtâ) > > Returns: > > File @ C:\temp\e8720bb4-b90a-0d00-9b1f-008709e5552b.txt\ > > And I wonder where the last \ came from and if is it that is messing all and how to fix things. > > Best regards, > > Casimiro Barreto > > <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campai…> Livre de vÃrus. www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campai…>.

April 30, 2017

Problem with FileSystem in WIndows

by Casimiro de Almeida Barreto

Good night all. IÂ´ve had trouble in windows concerning FileSystem. ((FileSystem disk root) / âC:\temp\e8720bb4-b90a-0d00-9b1f-008709e5552b.txtâ) delete Fails as if the file didnÂ´t exist. Message: FileDoesNotExist: Path / âC:\temp\e8720bb4-b90a-0d00-9b1f-008709e5552b.txtâ And I wonder whatÂ´s wrong. Because it works in linux and MacOS. Trasncript show: ((FileSYstem disk root) / âC:\temp\e8720bb4-b90a-0d00-9b1f-008709e5552b.txtâ) Returns: File @ C:\temp\e8720bb4-b90a-0d00-9b1f-008709e5552b.txt\ And I wonder where the last \ came from and if is it that is messing all and how to fix things. Best regards, Casimiro Barreto --- Este email foi escaneado pelo Avast antivÃrus. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

April 30, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] Smalltalk Internet Browser

by nacho

Did you tried Amber? Is Smalltalk on the browser. I believe that what you mean is embedding the V8 engine into Pharo. But man, thats a huge work. Really... my 2c. *Lic. Ignacio Sniechowski, MBA* *Prosavic SRL* â* (5411) 4542-6712* ð±* (54911) 6749-4721* On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 7:53 PM, askoh [via Smalltalk] < ml+s1294792n4944919h82(a)n4.nabble.com> wrote: > We means all communities of Smalltalk environments. Pharo is of course the > biggest, hence my post here first. I am verifying the soundness of the idea > of SIB and then do a student project on it. I am from the VisualWork > community. I look forward to porting freeCAD: 3D CAD with Motion Simulation > to Pharo when it has 64bit version on Windows. > > Aik-Siong Koh > > Denis Kudriashov wrote > 2017-04-29 19:00 GMT+02:00 askoh <[hidden email] > <http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=4944919&i=0>>: > > > We start out by embedding Chrome inside the IDE. Make them communicate > > well. > > We then port bit by bit to Smalltalk based on needs and priorities. > > > > I am wondering, when you said "we" what you mean? Did you found team to > work on such project? > > > > ------------------------------ > If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion > below: > http://forum.world.st/Smalltalk-Internet-Browser-tp4944879p4944919.html > To start a new topic under Pharo Smalltalk Developers, email > ml+s1294792n1294837h40(a)n4.nabble.com > To unsubscribe from Pharo Smalltalk Developers, click here > <http://forum.world.st/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=unsubscribe_by_code&no…> > . > NAML > <http://forum.world.st/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=macro_viewer&id=instan…> > ----- Nacho Smalltalker apprentice. Buenos Aires, Argentina. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Smalltalk-Internet-Browser-tp4944879p4944920.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

April 29, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] Smalltalk Internet Browser

by askoh

We means all communities of Smalltalk environments. Pharo is of course the biggest, hence my post here first. I am verifying the soundness of the idea of SIB and then do a student project on it. I am from the VisualWork community. I look forward to porting freeCAD: 3D CAD with Motion Simulation to Pharo when it has 64bit version on Windows. Aik-Siong Koh Denis Kudriashov wrote > 2017-04-29 19:00 GMT+02:00 askoh < > askoh@ > >: > >> We start out by embedding Chrome inside the IDE. Make them communicate >> well. >> We then port bit by bit to Smalltalk based on needs and priorities. >> > > I am wondering, when you said "we" what you mean? Did you found team to > work on such project? -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Smalltalk-Internet-Browser-tp4944879p4944919.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

April 29, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] Smalltalk Internet Browser

by Denis Kudriashov

2017-04-29 19:00 GMT+02:00 askoh <askoh(a)askoh.com>: > We start out by embedding Chrome inside the IDE. Make them communicate > well. > We then port bit by bit to Smalltalk based on needs and priorities. > I am wondering, when you said "we" what you mean? Did you found team to work on such project?

April 29, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] Smalltalk Internet Browser

by Stephane Ducasse

What you can try is to resurrect the old web browser plugin. Now if you want to help why don;t you join the community and help? Stef On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 7:00 PM, askoh <askoh(a)askoh.com> wrote: > Let me clarify that this browser is to enhance software development and not > for mainstream use - at least not yet. > > Imagine have the full power of Smalltalk IDE while browsing the internet. I > click on a photo and run image processing on it to see if it is natural or > artificial, recognize objects or people, etc. I can have my own algorithm > to > suppress ads or popups. I can invent and test security models. I can > download and upload from within the environment. I can search the > environment and web at the same time. > > Indeed, Smalltalk lacks many technologies. But internet technologies are so > so important we must have them ASAP. Having a GOAL to create a Smalltalk > native Internet Browser (SIB) inside the environment will ensure we are not > left behind. The synergy (IDE+SIB) will bring software development to the > next level. Again it's something Smalltalk can pioneer. Every Smalltalk > application will be web enabled automatically. > > Javascript is popular because it is embedded into all internet browsers. > Google intentionally embed Dart into Chrome. We can have Smalltalk in SIB. > SIB will improve Smalltalk programming productivity. > > We start out by embedding Chrome inside the IDE. Make them communicate > well. > We then port bit by bit to Smalltalk based on needs and priorities. > > All the best, > Aik-Siong Koh > > > > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/ > Smalltalk-Internet-Browser-tp4944879p4944902.html > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at > Nabble.com. > >

April 29, 2017