February 2017 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] Pharo bootstrap with Ring and Calypso

by Igor Stasenko

On 24 February 2017 at 21:01, Pavel Krivanek <pavel.krivanek(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > 2017-02-24 17:17 GMT+01:00 Denis Kudriashov <dionisiydk(a)gmail.com>: > >> >> 2017-02-24 16:36 GMT+01:00 Pavel Krivanek <pavel.krivanek(a)gmail.com>: >> >>> The "guest" object memory runs in a special virtual machine simulator >>> during the bootstrapping. That simulator uses AST Interpreter to execute >>> the code inside the guest environment before it is installed for real. It >>> uses own special kind of proxies and tricks to do it. The current bootstrap >>> cannot run without class builder in the guest environment, but... >>> >>> >>>> And how much smaller could the image get if the class builder was >>>> removed. >>>> >>> >>> ...Guille in his thesis tried different approaches and he was able to >>> produce extremely small images (~10 KiB) that did for example only a sum >>> of two numbers. >>> >> >> Is it future approach for bootstrap? >> How faster or slower bootstrap process with it? >> > > That's more question for Guille, but I do not think we will adopt this > approach of bootstrapping in near future because it needs to be updated for > the Spur format and it needs a special VM modifications. And the question > is how much is it really needed because if you want to do something with > the image, you will anyway need most of methods needed for the class > builder like basic strings and collections support. > > I think, you can shrink image even more, by running something after booting it to remove ClassBuilder & co, if you don't need to create classes etc. -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

Feb. 24, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] Catalog loading in Spotter

by stepharong

Guillermo such people do not know what is ti teach in the university with a fucking proxy like you and me. It is super easy when you are not expose to the view of newbies. PHARO IS NOT WELL PACKAGED guys. Try to get out our confort zone. The world is different and working. Stef > As far as I remember, the main problem was not bandwidth but a blocking > and non-responsive UI. > Imagine I'm in the university, or in a company with a proxy. And I > forget to set the proxy. Then, while spotter tries to fetch catalog > entries, it would block the image and throw a timeout error >some > minutes after. > > So, maybe for the future and besides Ben's C option (which I like) I > have a > > D) Load catalog entries in background in a non-blocking way > - and while catalog entries are not yet available, they should not be > shown > > Even further, It would make sense a solution that mixes Ben's caching > with background loading of the catalog entries... > Guille > > On Mon, Feb 20, 2017 at 1:03 AM, Ben Coman <btc(a)openinworld.com> wrote: >> On Mon, Feb 20, 2017 at 4:05 AM, Torsten Bergmann <astares(a)gmx.de> >> wrote: >>> In the past in Pharo it was possible to open Spotter, type in the name >>> of a framework/project to load >>> from catalog, perform a search and just hit ENTER to easily install >>> the project. >>> >>> This was following the Spotter idea that it is easy to access most >>> informations of Pharo >>> with the Spotter tool. >>> >>> There always was and still is a setting in "Settings" -> "Catalog" -> >>> "Display catalog projects in Spotter". >>> This setting is ENABLED BY DEFAULT but could be switched off in the >>> settings tool or custom preference >>> scripts if this is problematic for someone. >>> >>> >>> Now in Pharo 6 there is an additional class >>> "GTSpotterExtensionSettings" to activate/deactivate >>> Spotter extensions. While nearly all of the Spotter extensions are >>> enabled the one for the catalog >>> integration is DISABLED BY DEFAULT. >>> >>> This leads to several effects: >>> >>> 1. While in the past it was possible in a fresh Pharo image to >>> search and install out of >>> the box it is (as of today in the not yet released Pharo 6) not >>> possible anymore to quickly >>> start by searching and installing from catalog using Spotter. >>> >>> 2. It is very confusing that in the settings "Display catalog >>> projects in Spotter" is enabled but a search >>> in Spotter gives no results. Most people will not not know about >>> the second setting and easily >>> get lost and think this behavior is just broken. >>> Also this second setting for the Spotter extension is much more >>> hidden between all the other >>> Spotter extension enablements very and hard to find. >> >> Generally its not good to have two settings for the one thing. >> >>>>> >>> 3. Several of my youtube videos demonstrating Goodies like >>> DesktopManager, QuickAccess, >>> MessageFlowBrowser, ... directly start by loading the tools from >>> Spotter. Anyone newbee who will >>> follow these will not only be confused - but also stuck in trying >>> Pharo when he learns >>> from these videos. >> >> UI things do evolve and videos date. But these seem worthwhile to keep >> current. >> >>>>> >>> I was asked several times on Slack and via Mail from people who >>> were not able to reproduce ... this >>> is really annyoing. Especially this gives the wrong impression to >>> newbees. Things should be easy >>> not complicated. >>> >>> To my knowledge disabling the Spotter search in Pharo 6 came up due to >>> some Pharo teaching in regions >>> with slow internet connection. >> >> This made sense at the time. It is a worse first impression if UI >> lags when this central part of the UI is interfaced. >> How often would it access the network? Every time? Or did it cache >> the result for a day, etc? >> >>> I understand that we would like to support these Pharo users too as >>> best >>> as possible in their out of the box experience ... but (without being >>> able to prove) I think that 90% or >>> more Pharo users have a regular internet connection. Otherwise it >>> would be hard to work with updates, >>> project loading, PharoLauncher, STHub or Iceberg/GitHub. >>> >>> Also my own personal experience is that even on low bandwidth network >>> this Catalog Spotter search for >>> me was always fast enough (as I often use Pharo in trains with slow >>> connections or on a Pi with slow >>> connections and less processing power). I do not know about all others >>> from the community. >>> >>> I invested hours in the past in developing and introducing the initial >>> configuration browser to Pharo, >>> later improved and helped shaping its replacement CatalogBrowser, also >>> contributed this spotter search >>> for the catalog items so things are more accessible, easy and >>> enjoyable. That's why I also invested >>> hours in udpating configs or pushing you to put things into catalog. >>> >>> Because accessibility is key. Only when things are easy to access and >>> understandable people will >>> enjoy Pharo. >>> >>> Currently in an out-of the box image this easy access to the projects >>> via Spotter is blocked. >>> Additionally I have to explain to anyone who asks me that there is a >>> second non-obvious/more hidden setting >>> leaving an unpleasant feeling how many others unknown to me will >>> struggle with this issue. >>> >>> I see two solutions: >>> >>> A) We enable both settings by DEFAULT to bring back the Spotter >>> search and installation >>> of catalog items - with the clear benefit of having >>> - the previous behavior in Pharo back >>> - the out of the box ability to search for catalog projects >>> in any fresh image >>> - no confusion among the user base anymore regarding the >>> settings >>> - we have unbroken Youtube videos that newbees can continue >>> to follow >>> - if a user asks (like often) how to get Seaside, Artefact, >>> Mongo, Teapot or other projects we can >>> just tell him "search in Spotter and you should be fine" as >>> most of them have a config in >>> the catalog. >>> >>> Remember that not all of us know about all the github pages >>> or nice Metacello expressions. >>> So the easier things are found and accessible the better it >>> is. >>> >>> B) If A is still a "No go" for the community we should at a minimum >>> switch the defaults of >>> the two settings: >>> >>> => we ENABLE the Spotter extension (GTSpotterExtensionSettings >>> perform: #GTSpotter_spotterCatalogProjectsFor: with: true) >>> => we DISABLE the catalog setting (CatalogSettings >>> displayCatalogProjectsInSpotter: false) >>> >>> With this at least we have no confusion among the user base >>> anymore regarding the settings. >> >> C) Could a STON file of the catalog be cached in the zip of >> Image/Changes files? >> That zip might be updated daily to keep it current. >> Then in a fresh image Spotter searches the cached file for a instant >> response, >> while the Catalog is updated from the network in the background. >> >> Even with fast Internet the Catalog should only need to auto-update >> once a day, >> with results cached in a common file to be accessed when fresh images >> are started. >> >> The Spotter UI might display the last update date as part of the >> Catalog sub-heading in its results. >> >> cheers -ben >> >>> >>> I would clearly and strongly vote for option A as my preferred one. >>> >>> I agree there are regions/continents with very low bandwidth - but >>> Pharo will rival with state of the art >>> technologies where loading/installation megabytes from the web is >>> often not seen as an issue. There are >>> many package registries out there (from debian packages) up to Maven, >>> npm in JS, ... or look at Docker. >>> Shuffling megabytes around is a reality in todays technologies. >>> >>> So to be honest I never understood this whole "bandwidth" discussion >>> and even if this comes up it could >>> be solved with a note in the download/welcome screen or pointing to a >>> custom preference script for low bandwidth >>> situations. >>> >>> Sorry for having to bring this up again ... but I would like this to >>> be solved BEFORE Pharo 6 will >>> be pushed out of the door. Keeping it like it is without further >>> actions would be really stupid. >>> >>> Thanks for you comments, ideas or votes. >>> >>> Thanks >>> T. >>> >> > -- Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

Feb. 24, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] Catalog loading in Spotter

by stepharong

You are telling me that expert developers cannot have a script that automatically set this. I cannot believe. I hope that your confort zone is not too disruptive. I'm really sad. I'm currently writing a book for newbies and I spent my morning talking to people in liberia. Poor guys. Stef

Feb. 24, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] Catalog loading in Spotter

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

> On 24 Feb 2017, at 18:56, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > >> >> On 24 Feb 2017, at 18:14, Ben Coman <btc(a)openinworld.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> On Mon, Feb 20, 2017 at 6:27 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: >> >>> On 20 Feb 2017, at 10:30, Pavel Krivanek <pavel.krivanek(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> 2017-02-20 10:27 GMT+01:00 Guillermo Polito <guillermopolito(a)gmail.com>: >>> As far as I remember, the main problem was not bandwidth but a blocking and non-responsive UI. >>> Imagine I'm in the university, or in a company with a proxy. And I forget to set the proxy. Then, while spotter tries to fetch catalog entries, it would block the image and throw a timeout error some minutes after. >>> >>> So, maybe for the future and besides Ben's C option (which I like) I have a >>> >>> D) Load catalog entries in background in a non-blocking way >>> - and while catalog entries are not yet available, they should not be shown >>> >>> AFIK the main problem was that there was not possilbe to do it non-blocking way. >> >> Yes that is true. (It is actually DNS resolving that is blocked in some freak case). >> >> In sqUnixSocket.c I read... >> * Notes: >> * Sockets are completely asynchronous, but the resolver is still synchronous. >> >> So does this mean that if for any reason the resolver primitive takes a long time to respond, >> the whole VM is blocked? Thus forking the Catalog loading in another thread would have no benefit? > > Yes and yes. > >> Would having the resolver coded purely in-Image behave better? > > Yes (probably). > >> So a slow name resolution would not hold up the whole image if it happened in a forked thread. > > Yes. > >> I found such an implementation in OpenCobalt and after some minor cleanup basic operations work fine. >> >> http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~BenComan/DNS/ > > Well, I did one myself too (I have not looked at the one above, I will), but my conclusion was that it is not that difficult to get basic lookup working, but edge cases (like concurrent requests with intermixed answers) are not so easy. > > There is also a chicken/egg problem: what DNS resolver (host) will you contact ? How to find out the one configured by your OS ? My idea was to use the Google ones (8.8.8.8), but there is also a more open one (80.80.80.80) and probably others. > > We are often accused of reinventing the wheel and carrying the burden of maintaining all that infrastructure. Doing our own DNS client would add to that. > > But I like the general idea, the question is one about development risk. So Ben, I could not get the code to run (on Pharo 6) using UDP, it remained stuck on sending the UDP packet, which is really weird. I found my old code, turns out it was based on the same message/packets hierarchy. And it still worked. I committed it to your repo: === Name: Net-Protocols-DNS-SvenVanCaekenberghe.15 Author: SvenVanCaekenberghe Time: 24 February 2017, 8:08:54.299786 pm UUID: 9b8fa332-ad05-0d00-8577-5adb00d43870 Ancestors: Net-Protocols-DNS-BenComan.14 Added NeoDNSClient to Net-Protocols-DNS-Experimental === You should be able to do NeoDNSClient default addressForName: 'stfx.eu'. There is no caching yet, but there is a simple #beThreadSafe provided. (My other comments remain valid, also for my own code). Sven >> cheers -ben >> >> But the thing is, the problematic situation only occurs for a very small percentage of people, like less than 1%, probably even much less. (Remember, nobody can produce a repeatable case for it). >> >> So the question is, is that enough reason to act as if we are still in the 90's when internet was a luxury and cut features that depend on it ? If you have no network today, you're in big trouble anyway. (Again, if you turn off your network, no blocking will happen at all, try it). >> >> So what is more important ? The general functionality of the 99.xxx % or the unreproducible freak case ?

Feb. 24, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] Pharo bootstrap with Ring and Calypso

by Pavel Krivanek

2017-02-24 17:17 GMT+01:00 Denis Kudriashov <dionisiydk(a)gmail.com>: > > 2017-02-24 16:36 GMT+01:00 Pavel Krivanek <pavel.krivanek(a)gmail.com>: > >> The "guest" object memory runs in a special virtual machine simulator >> during the bootstrapping. That simulator uses AST Interpreter to execute >> the code inside the guest environment before it is installed for real. It >> uses own special kind of proxies and tricks to do it. The current bootstrap >> cannot run without class builder in the guest environment, but... >> >> >>> And how much smaller could the image get if the class builder was >>> removed. >>> >> >> ...Guille in his thesis tried different approaches and he was able to >> produce extremely small images (~10 KiB) that did for example only a sum >> of two numbers. >> > > Is it future approach for bootstrap? > How faster or slower bootstrap process with it? > That's more question for Guille, but I do not think we will adopt this approach of bootstrapping in near future because it needs to be updated for the Spur format and it needs a special VM modifications. And the question is how much is it really needed because if you want to do something with the image, you will anyway need most of methods needed for the class builder like basic strings and collections support.

Feb. 24, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] Catalog loading in Spotter

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

> On 24 Feb 2017, at 18:14, Ben Coman <btc(a)openinworld.com> wrote: > > > > On Mon, Feb 20, 2017 at 6:27 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > > > On 20 Feb 2017, at 10:30, Pavel Krivanek <pavel.krivanek(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > 2017-02-20 10:27 GMT+01:00 Guillermo Polito <guillermopolito(a)gmail.com>: > > As far as I remember, the main problem was not bandwidth but a blocking and non-responsive UI. > > Imagine I'm in the university, or in a company with a proxy. And I forget to set the proxy. Then, while spotter tries to fetch catalog entries, it would block the image and throw a timeout error some minutes after. > > > > So, maybe for the future and besides Ben's C option (which I like) I have a > > > > D) Load catalog entries in background in a non-blocking way > > - and while catalog entries are not yet available, they should not be shown > > > > AFIK the main problem was that there was not possilbe to do it non-blocking way. > > Yes that is true. (It is actually DNS resolving that is blocked in some freak case). > > In sqUnixSocket.c I read... > * Notes: > * Sockets are completely asynchronous, but the resolver is still synchronous. > > So does this mean that if for any reason the resolver primitive takes a long time to respond, > the whole VM is blocked? Thus forking the Catalog loading in another thread would have no benefit? Yes and yes. > Would having the resolver coded purely in-Image behave better? Yes (probably). > So a slow name resolution would not hold up the whole image if it happened in a forked thread. Yes. > I found such an implementation in OpenCobalt and after some minor cleanup basic operations work fine. > > http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~BenComan/DNS/ Well, I did one myself too (I have not looked at the one above, I will), but my conclusion was that it is not that difficult to get basic lookup working, but edge cases (like concurrent requests with intermixed answers) are not so easy. There is also a chicken/egg problem: what DNS resolver (host) will you contact ? How to find out the one configured by your OS ? My idea was to use the Google ones (8.8.8.8), but there is also a more open one (80.80.80.80) and probably others. We are often accused of reinventing the wheel and carrying the burden of maintaining all that infrastructure. Doing our own DNS client would add to that. But I like the general idea, the question is one about development risk. > cheers -ben > > But the thing is, the problematic situation only occurs for a very small percentage of people, like less than 1%, probably even much less. (Remember, nobody can produce a repeatable case for it). > > So the question is, is that enough reason to act as if we are still in the 90's when internet was a luxury and cut features that depend on it ? If you have no network today, you're in big trouble anyway. (Again, if you turn off your network, no blocking will happen at all, try it). > > So what is more important ? The general functionality of the 99.xxx % or the unreproducible freak case ?

Feb. 24, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] Catalog loading in Spotter

by Ben Coman

On Mon, Feb 20, 2017 at 6:27 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > > > On 20 Feb 2017, at 10:30, Pavel Krivanek <pavel.krivanek(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > > > > > 2017-02-20 10:27 GMT+01:00 Guillermo Polito <guillermopolito(a)gmail.com>: > > As far as I remember, the main problem was not bandwidth but a blocking > and non-responsive UI. > > Imagine I'm in the university, or in a company with a proxy. And I > forget to set the proxy. Then, while spotter tries to fetch catalog > entries, it would block the image and throw a timeout error some minutes > after. > > > > So, maybe for the future and besides Ben's C option (which I like) I > have a > > > > D) Load catalog entries in background in a non-blocking way > > - and while catalog entries are not yet available, they should not be > shown > > > > AFIK the main problem was that there was not possilbe to do it > non-blocking way. > > Yes that is true. (It is actually DNS resolving that is blocked in some > freak case). > In sqUnixSocket.c I read... * Notes: * Sockets are completely asynchronous, but the resolver is still synchronous. So does this mean that if for any reason the resolver primitive takes a long time to respond, the whole VM is blocked? Thus forking the Catalog loading in another thread would have no benefit? Would having the resolver coded purely in-Image behave better? So a slow name resolution would not hold up the whole image if it happened in a forked thread. I found such an implementation in OpenCobalt and after some minor cleanup basic operations work fine. http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~BenComan/DNS/ cheers -ben > But the thing is, the problematic situation only occurs for a very small > percentage of people, like less than 1%, probably even much less. > (Remember, nobody can produce a repeatable case for it). > > So the question is, is that enough reason to act as if we are still in the > 90's when internet was a luxury and cut features that depend on it ? If you > have no network today, you're in big trouble anyway. (Again, if you turn > off your network, no blocking will happen at all, try it). > > So what is more important ? The general functionality of the 99.xxx % or > the unreproducible freak case ? > >

Feb. 24, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] Any idea for a cool name for the remote tool suite?

by Andreas Wacknitz

I second this wholeheartedly! Everything that is used outside Pharo could have a fancy name. For internal tools and frameworks this is IMO really irritating and repellent. It is like talking in argot and creates high walls around Pharo. Andreas Am 24.02.17 um 17:18 schrieb Brad Selfridge: > I understand that if a developer is building a standalone application, (like > Windows, Apache, Slack, Git, ...... PHARO !!! ), then a fuzzy-wuzzy name may > make sense. But, there are so many packages that are built for Pharo/Squeak > use only, that have cryptic names and no descriptions. This drives me crazy. > I see all these package names spewn about and I have no idea what they are. > I look on the Pharo website - no explanation. I look on Git - often times > little to no explanation. I look on SmalltalkHub - little to no > explanation...etc. I look on Catalog Browser - absolutely NO explanation. > The only way to find out is start texting message boards or load the code > and study the crap out of it just trying to figure out that - "oops, I > didn't really want that loaded at all". > > With that said, the creator has the right to name their creation anything > they want. Just understand, that we ARE wanting to grow our exposure and the > we need to make this as easy and pain free as possible. > > > > ----- > Brad Selfridge > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Any-idea-for-a-cool-name-for-the-remote-tool-suite-tp… > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >

Feb. 24, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] Pharo bootstrap with Ring and Calypso

by Ben Coman

On Fri, Feb 24, 2017 at 11:36 PM, Pavel Krivanek <pavel.krivanek(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > 2017-02-24 15:58 GMT+01:00 Ben Coman <btc(a)openinworld.com>: > >> >> >> On Fri, Feb 24, 2017 at 8:36 PM, Pavel Krivanek <pavel.krivanek(a)gmail.com >> > wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> I have published a short video of the Pharo bootstrapping from a Ring >>> model that is browsed and modified by the Calypso browser. >>> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QguZSPKo7-w >>> >>> No audio, please enable subtitles for the description. >>> >>> >> Wow wow wow !! Super-cool !! >> I had to watch it a few times. >> 314k image is pretty impressive. >> >> Just to clarify, Calypso is not connected to a remote image but browses >> the bootstrap source code loaded into a Ring Environment? >> > > > Yes, Calypso browses an off-line source code loaded into the Ring > environment. > > > >> (btw, should we call this a "guest environment"?) >> > > It is possible to open Calypso on a Ring model that takes data from the > current image so in that case it would be confusing:-) > I meant only for the purpose of discussing bootstrap, not Calypso in general. :) The rest of your responses made things clear. Thx. cheers -ben > > > >> >> When you show the previously opened window "Methods with a string aText >> 'Smalltalk run' ..." >> showing PBImageBuilder50 >> initializeImage, >> that was opened before you created the new Ring Environment and Calypso >> was opened, >> so can I presume it was opened on a similar Ring Environment created >> earlier? >> > > It is a standard Nautilus window on the code in the image that does the > bootstrapping. For the standard bootstrap it does much more things. See: > https://github.com/guillep/pharo-core/blob/dfbfb77844a31701da6e49691af2a0 > 5ad55b4bc6/bootstrap/src/Pharo30Bootstrap.package/PBImageBuilder50.class/ > instance/initializeImage.st > > >> >> There were no processes in the guest image prior to doing this... >> process := objectSpace >> createProcessWithPriority: 40 >> doing: ('Smalltalk primitiveGarbageCollect. Smalltalk run'). >> objectSpace installActiveProcess: process. >> so this was a single process Image? >> > > Yes, see the method above > > >> >> You say "The image must contain support for the class builder to be able >> to be bootstrapped." >> When you create the SmalltalkImage>>run method in the guest environment, >> is that actually *running* to compiled as normal using its class builder? >> > > No, when I create the method, only the source code is set in the Ring > model. The model is "dead". The real installation of the method into the > generated object memory is done during the bootstrapping. > > >> >> How difficult would it be for the guest image to invoke class builder via >> seamless in the host image? >> > > The "guest" object memory runs in a special virtual machine simulator > during the bootstrapping. That simulator uses AST Interpreter to execute > the code inside the guest environment before it is installed for real. It > uses own special kind of proxies and tricks to do it. The current bootstrap > cannot run without class builder in the guest environment, but... > > >> And how much smaller could the image get if the class builder was removed. >> > > ...Guille in his thesis tried different approaches and he was able to > produce extremely small images (~10 KiB) that did for example only a sum > of two numbers. > > https://guillep.github.io/files/publications/Poli15Thesis.pdf > > >> >> It could be cool if this bootstrap creation process was integrated in >> PharoLauncher as a GUI tool. Then later the ability to download these >> mini-image to an embedded controller could be added. >> > >> cheers -ben >> >> P.S. Could you maybe blog this also, to make it easier to replicate and >> copy-paste the Playground text. >> > >

Feb. 24, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] Any idea for a cool name for the remote tool suite?

by Brad Selfridge

I understand that if a developer is building a standalone application, (like Windows, Apache, Slack, Git, ...... PHARO !!! ), then a fuzzy-wuzzy name may make sense. But, there are so many packages that are built for Pharo/Squeak use only, that have cryptic names and no descriptions. This drives me crazy. I see all these package names spewn about and I have no idea what they are. I look on the Pharo website - no explanation. I look on Git - often times little to no explanation. I look on SmalltalkHub - little to no explanation...etc. I look on Catalog Browser - absolutely NO explanation. The only way to find out is start texting message boards or load the code and study the crap out of it just trying to figure out that - "oops, I didn't really want that loaded at all". With that said, the creator has the right to name their creation anything they want. Just understand, that we ARE wanting to grow our exposure and the we need to make this as easy and pain free as possible. ----- Brad Selfridge -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Any-idea-for-a-cool-name-for-the-remote-tool-suite-tp… Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Feb. 24, 2017