September 2016 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] macOS Sierra support

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

> On 27 Sep 2016, at 13:41, ClÃ©ment Bera <bera.clement(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 11:43 AM, Max Leske <maxleske(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Sven, > > An experimental build of the VM works again on Sierra (Iâve tested this one: https://bintray.com/estebanlm/pharo-vm/build/201609201407#files) The problem was with the bundle code and a change from Appleâs side to Cocoa. The new VM is a Spur VM of course. If you need a Cog VM, you can try a Squeak VM (e.g. 'Croquet Closure Cog VM [CoInterpreterPrimitives VMMaker.oscog-eem.1095] Squeak Cog 4.0.3282â) or run the current PharoVM in a virtual machine on Linux (as Iâve done). > > Concerning Fuel: the versioning problem is a known and big issue I have to admit. Which Fuel versions does your problem concern? There were some big changes for Fuel from Pharo 4 to 5, e.g. MethodContext was renamed to Context. Depending on the objects you store however, you may be able to load the file simply by removing the version check in Fuel, as most things should be identical. > > > From Pharo 5 to Pharo 6, likely there will be the change from BlockClosure to FullBlockClosure that will have some impact... We'll keep for Pharo 6 the BlockClosure support for migration purpose then. The problem is not so much that if there is a change there is an incompatibility, that would be understandable. [ And then supporting some backward compatibility is good ] The problem is that FUEL moves forward in version number, and it refuses to load unless the versions match, even if all you do is, say, safe a collection of strings. It should only fail when it really encounters something that changed. > Cheers, > Max > > >> On 27 Sep 2016, at 11:26, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: >> >> >>> On 27 Sep 2016, at 11:21, Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name> wrote: >>> >>> Sven, >>> >>>> Am 27.09.2016 um 11:15 schrieb Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu>: >>>> >>>> PS2: Another really annoying problem is the following: he saved all his (really important) scripts using Script Manager as a FUEL. Moving between 4.0 and 5.0 FUEL stops working (version incompatibility) - this is really not cool, why would a newer FUEL not be able to read older FUEL. He ended up copying string data by opening the binary FUEL file in a text editor. >>> >>> it is like that from the beginning. I guess there was the fear keeping everything compatible would be a huge amount of work. But it is indeed an annoying thing. The usual way to deal with it is open pharo4 and materialize the fuel file then upgrade fuel to the version pharo5 uses and save again. >>> >>> Norbert >> >> Yeah, but this is silly: it goes against the principle of a persistence format: to save data for future use. [ I knew this already, I never agreed with this principle ]. >> >> Like I described in the email, after upgrading, we were unable to run the old image - catch 22.

Sept. 27, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] macOS Sierra support

by ClÃ©ment Bera

On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 11:43 AM, Max Leske <maxleske(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Sven, > > An experimental build of the VM works again on Sierra (Iâve tested this > one: https://bintray.com/estebanlm/pharo-vm/build/201609201407#files) > The problem was with the bundle code and a change from Appleâs side to > Cocoa. The new VM is a Spur VM of course. If you need a Cog VM, you can try > a Squeak VM (e.g. 'Croquet Closure Cog VM [CoInterpreterPrimitives > VMMaker.oscog-eem.1095] Squeak Cog 4.0.3282â) or run the current PharoVM in > a virtual machine on Linux (as Iâve done). > > Concerning Fuel: the versioning problem is a known and big issue I have to > admit. Which Fuel versions does your problem concern? There were some big > changes for Fuel from Pharo 4 to 5, e.g. MethodContext was renamed to > Context. Depending on the objects you store however, you may be able to > load the file simply by removing the version check in Fuel, as most things > should be identical. > > >From Pharo 5 to Pharo 6, likely there will be the change from BlockClosure to FullBlockClosure that will have some impact... We'll keep for Pharo 6 the BlockClosure support for migration purpose then. > Cheers, > Max > > > On 27 Sep 2016, at 11:26, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > > > On 27 Sep 2016, at 11:21, Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name> wrote: > > Sven, > > Am 27.09.2016 um 11:15 schrieb Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu>: > > PS2: Another really annoying problem is the following: he saved all his > (really important) scripts using Script Manager as a FUEL. Moving between > 4.0 and 5.0 FUEL stops working (version incompatibility) - this is really > not cool, why would a newer FUEL not be able to read older FUEL. He ended > up copying string data by opening the binary FUEL file in a text editor. > > > it is like that from the beginning. I guess there was the fear keeping > everything compatible would be a huge amount of work. But it is indeed an > annoying thing. The usual way to deal with it is open pharo4 and > materialize the fuel file then upgrade fuel to the version pharo5 uses and > save again. > > Norbert > > > Yeah, but this is silly: it goes against the principle of a persistence > format: to save data for future use. [ I knew this already, I never agreed > with this principle ]. > > Like I described in the email, after upgrading, we were unable to run the > old image - catch 22. > > > > >

Sept. 27, 2016

[IMPORTANT] Tech meeting 27/09 16UTC - WE WILL USE DISCORD

by Esteban Lorenzano

Hi, Since I failed to configure the thing correctly (and then streaming breaks after some minutes), we will handle the meeting using discord. This has the advantage that we can all talk, so my idea of having a conversation will work better (ideal world would be to mix both, but for now, this has to work). Here the discord link: https://discord.gg/RRfqj <https://discord.gg/RRfqj> cheers, Esteban > On 26 Sep 2016, at 16:42, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Ah yes, I forget the âsmall detailâ of linking my channel :) > > https://www.livecoding.tv/estebanlm/ <https://www.livecoding.tv/estebanlm/> > > (I never tried, so this can fail ;) > > cheers, > Esteban > >> On 26 Sep 2016, at 16:40, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> Hello, >> >> I will handle the first tech meeting tomorrow, as preview. >> After several considerations, I will be trying âlivecoding.tvâ (no idea if this is worst or better than twitchâ¦ and Iâm not very happy with the fact that this is a âtv formatâ and not a âconversation formatâ, but well, weâll see how it goes, maybe weâll need to review this later). >> >> Subject of meeting tomorrow is a general overview about current work on PharoVM, so prepare your questions, and see you there! >> >> cheers, >> Esteban >

Sept. 27, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] macOS Sierra support

by Esteban Lorenzano

> On 27 Sep 2016, at 11:15, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > > Hi, > > Can someone who really knows/understand please describe where to find the necessary Pharo VM's to run on the newly released macOS Sierra (10.12) ? Iâm in the process of producing compatible VMs. Today or tomorrow they will be ready. Esteban ps: in the mean time, you can use this one: cog_macos32x86_pharo.cog.spur_201609231453.tar.gz <https://bintray.com/estebanlm/pharo-vm/download_file?file_path=cog_macos32x…> (is not yet 100% compatible with Pharo but is working fineâ¦ just command line â-â vs. â--" is not compatible and some othersâ¦) > > In particular it seems old VM's just stop working and recent VM's that do work either have issues or cannot run older (3.0, 4.0) images. > > Thanks, > > Sven > > PS: I have not yet upgraded, but one of my colleagues did and he got stuck: even after we found a VM that worked, it could only run 5.0 images, not his production 4.0 images. Needless to say, this is not good. > > PS2: Another really annoying problem is the following: he saved all his (really important) scripts using Script Manager as a FUEL. Moving between 4.0 and 5.0 FUEL stops working (version incompatibility) - this is really not cool, why would a newer FUEL not be able to read older FUEL. He ended up copying string data by opening the binary FUEL file in a text editor.

Sept. 27, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] macOS Sierra support

by stepharo

>>> Am 27.09.2016 um 11:15 schrieb Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu>: >>> >>> PS2: Another really annoying problem is the following: he saved all his (really important) scripts using Script Manager as a FUEL. Moving between 4.0 and 5.0 FUEL stops working (version incompatibility) - this is really not cool, why would a newer FUEL not be able to read older FUEL. He ended up copying string data by opening the binary FUEL file in a text editor. >> it is like that from the beginning. I guess there was the fear keeping everything compatible would be a huge amount of work. But it is indeed an annoying thing. The usual way to deal with it is open pharo4 and materialize the fuel file then upgrade fuel to the version pharo5 uses and save again. >> >> Norbert > Yeah, but this is silly: it goes against the principle of a persistence format: to save data for future use. [ I knew this already, I never agreed with this principle ]. Me too - believe but my scenario was not really heard. I think that it would be good to have some strategies to represent different objects representation but fuel will be slower. Mariano was fighting against speed and speed and speed. and he did it well. > Like I described in the email, after upgrading, we were unable to run the old image - catch 22.

Sept. 27, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] macOS Sierra support

by Max Leske

Hi Sven, An experimental build of the VM works again on Sierra (Iâve tested this one: https://bintray.com/estebanlm/pharo-vm/build/201609201407#files <https://bintray.com/estebanlm/pharo-vm/build/201609201407#files>). The problem was with the bundle code and a change from Appleâs side to Cocoa. The new VM is a Spur VM of course. If you need a Cog VM, you can try a Squeak VM (e.g. 'Croquet Closure Cog VM [CoInterpreterPrimitives VMMaker.oscog-eem.1095] Squeak Cog 4.0.3282â) or run the current PharoVM in a virtual machine on Linux (as Iâve done). Concerning Fuel: the versioning problem is a known and big issue I have to admit. Which Fuel versions does your problem concern? There were some big changes for Fuel from Pharo 4 to 5, e.g. MethodContext was renamed to Context. Depending on the objects you store however, you may be able to load the file simply by removing the version check in Fuel, as most things should be identical. Cheers, Max > On 27 Sep 2016, at 11:26, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > > >> On 27 Sep 2016, at 11:21, Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name> wrote: >> >> Sven, >> >>> Am 27.09.2016 um 11:15 schrieb Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu>: >>> >>> PS2: Another really annoying problem is the following: he saved all his (really important) scripts using Script Manager as a FUEL. Moving between 4.0 and 5.0 FUEL stops working (version incompatibility) - this is really not cool, why would a newer FUEL not be able to read older FUEL. He ended up copying string data by opening the binary FUEL file in a text editor. >> >> it is like that from the beginning. I guess there was the fear keeping everything compatible would be a huge amount of work. But it is indeed an annoying thing. The usual way to deal with it is open pharo4 and materialize the fuel file then upgrade fuel to the version pharo5 uses and save again. >> >> Norbert > > Yeah, but this is silly: it goes against the principle of a persistence format: to save data for future use. [ I knew this already, I never agreed with this principle ]. > > Like I described in the email, after upgrading, we were unable to run the old image - catch 22. > > >

Sept. 27, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] macOS Sierra support

by stepharo

Hi Sven > Hi, > > Can someone who really knows/understand please describe where to find the necessary Pharo VM's to run on the newly released macOS Sierra (10.12) ? I will let Esteban reply. > In particular it seems old VM's just stop working and recent VM's that do work either have issues or cannot run older (3.0, 4.0) images. But you see Pharo 50 got all the internal object representation changed. It happens only every 15 years or more. This is not an easy changes. We did not rewrote a new FFI just because we did not know what to do. The new format open so many future opportunities but it has a cost. Well if mac changes some important low-level entries why the VM would not be impacted. Esteban is working on - 64 bits support - ARM VM - after he should work on the FT plugin Now I think that he is quite efficient as engineers and it means that the community should help or put more money on the table to get more engineers. > Thanks, > > Sven > > PS: I have not yet upgraded, but one of my colleagues did and he got stuck: even after we found a VM that worked, it could only run 5.0 images, not his production 4.0 images. Needless to say, this is not good. > > PS2: Another really annoying problem is the following: he saved all his (really important) scripts using Script Manager as a FUEL. Moving between 4.0 and 5.0 FUEL stops working (version incompatibility) - this is really not cool, why would a newer FUEL not be able to read older FUEL. He ended up copying string data by opening the binary FUEL file in a text editor. I was really concerned by that since Fuel inception. I agree with you. I think that a serialization format should live over multiple versions. Now this is difficult to achieve when the serializer is drastically optimised and rely on internal representation logic. And manpower of course. What the Script Manager should do is to provide a textual output too like using STON.

Sept. 27, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] macOS Sierra support

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

> On 27 Sep 2016, at 11:21, Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name> wrote: > > Sven, > >> Am 27.09.2016 um 11:15 schrieb Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu>: >> >> PS2: Another really annoying problem is the following: he saved all his (really important) scripts using Script Manager as a FUEL. Moving between 4.0 and 5.0 FUEL stops working (version incompatibility) - this is really not cool, why would a newer FUEL not be able to read older FUEL. He ended up copying string data by opening the binary FUEL file in a text editor. > > it is like that from the beginning. I guess there was the fear keeping everything compatible would be a huge amount of work. But it is indeed an annoying thing. The usual way to deal with it is open pharo4 and materialize the fuel file then upgrade fuel to the version pharo5 uses and save again. > > Norbert Yeah, but this is silly: it goes against the principle of a persistence format: to save data for future use. [ I knew this already, I never agreed with this principle ]. Like I described in the email, after upgrading, we were unable to run the old image - catch 22.

Sept. 27, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] macOS Sierra support

by Norbert Hartl

Sven, > Am 27.09.2016 um 11:15 schrieb Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu>: > > PS2: Another really annoying problem is the following: he saved all his (really important) scripts using Script Manager as a FUEL. Moving between 4.0 and 5.0 FUEL stops working (version incompatibility) - this is really not cool, why would a newer FUEL not be able to read older FUEL. He ended up copying string data by opening the binary FUEL file in a text editor. it is like that from the beginning. I guess there was the fear keeping everything compatible would be a huge amount of work. But it is indeed an annoying thing. The usual way to deal with it is open pharo4 and materialize the fuel file then upgrade fuel to the version pharo5 uses and save again. Norbert

Sept. 27, 2016

macOS Sierra support

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

Hi, Can someone who really knows/understand please describe where to find the necessary Pharo VM's to run on the newly released macOS Sierra (10.12) ? In particular it seems old VM's just stop working and recent VM's that do work either have issues or cannot run older (3.0, 4.0) images. Thanks, Sven PS: I have not yet upgraded, but one of my colleagues did and he got stuck: even after we found a VM that worked, it could only run 5.0 images, not his production 4.0 images. Needless to say, this is not good. PS2: Another really annoying problem is the following: he saved all his (really important) scripts using Script Manager as a FUEL. Moving between 4.0 and 5.0 FUEL stops working (version incompatibility) - this is really not cool, why would a newer FUEL not be able to read older FUEL. He ended up copying string data by opening the binary FUEL file in a text editor.

Sept. 27, 2016