August 2016 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] Interrupting process which hangs on recursion

by Dale Henrichs

+1 on not logging by default, but when using images as servers and/or running headless it seems that logging interrupts would be desirable. Sven, I think that Pharo already does some truncation of the stacks and frankly IMHO, if you are going to truncate the stack don't bother writing it at all .... Nothing more frustrating that reading down a printed stack only to find the bit that you NEED has been truncated! If there are folks who prefer truncated stacks, then perhaps that needs to be an option as well ... It seems that the debugger in Pharo5.0 truncates the number of frames supplied when you copy the stack as well - I assume it is using the stack logger code that is already truncating stacks :) Dale On 8/14/16 12:24 AM, Tudor Girba wrote: > Hi, > >> On Aug 14, 2016, at 9:14 AM, Max Leske <maxleske(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Awesome Denis! >> >>> On 13 Aug 2016, at 10:54, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: >>> >>> Very cool analysis! >>> >>> What would your proposal be in this case? >> Some ideas: >> >> - perform logging in a separate process >> - only log user interrupt once for any given time interval, i.e., while a previous interrupt is being logged, ignore logging for further interrupts. >> >> Alternatively: donât log user interrupts. I donât really see the value anyway. > I kind of like the idea of not logging user interrupts. What do others think? > > Cheers, > Doru > >> Cheers, >> Max >> >>> Doru >>> >>> >>>> On Aug 13, 2016, at 10:42 AM, Denis Kudriashov <dionisiydk(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> We had discussion on reasons why cmd+. is not always working. >>>> I made simple test which shows that VM is not issue. Following code normally stops after 20 seconds: >>>> >>>> hanging := [1 seconds wait. 1 recursionTest] newProcess. >>>> hanging priority: Processor activePriority + 10. >>>> interruptor := [ 20 seconds wait. hanging suspend] newProcess. >>>> interruptor priority: Processor activePriority + 11. >>>> >>>> hanging resume. >>>> interruptor resume. >>>> >>>> Recursion method: >>>> Integer>>recursionTest >>>> self recursionTest >>>> >>>> Hanging process produces 7 million contexts on my machine: >>>> >>>> c := hanging suspendedContext. >>>> count := 1. >>>> [ c notNil ] whileTrue: [ c := c sender. count := count + 1 ]. >>>> count Â«7395279" >>>> >>>> But if you try to debug it by "hanging debug" you will see how it is slow. It's caused by printing stack to file. >>>> Interesting that logging is performed before opening debugger. So every time we press cmd+. we are waiting logging to see debugger. >>>> >>>> We need to change this logic. >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> Denis >>>> >>> -- >>> www.tudorgirba.com >>> www.feenk.com >>> >>> "One cannot do more than one can do." >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > www.feenk.com > > "Yesterday is a fact. > Tomorrow is a possibility. > Today is a challenge." > > > > >

Aug. 14, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Interrupting process which hangs on recursion

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

But the slowness comes from printing a too large stack, no ? Why not just limit the size of the stack being printed ? > On 14 Aug 2016, at 09:24, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: > > Hi, > >> On Aug 14, 2016, at 9:14 AM, Max Leske <maxleske(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Awesome Denis! >> >>> On 13 Aug 2016, at 10:54, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: >>> >>> Very cool analysis! >>> >>> What would your proposal be in this case? >> >> Some ideas: >> >> - perform logging in a separate process >> - only log user interrupt once for any given time interval, i.e., while a previous interrupt is being logged, ignore logging for further interrupts. >> >> Alternatively: donât log user interrupts. I donât really see the value anyway. > > I kind of like the idea of not logging user interrupts. What do others think? > > Cheers, > Doru > >> Cheers, >> Max >> >>> >>> Doru >>> >>> >>>> On Aug 13, 2016, at 10:42 AM, Denis Kudriashov <dionisiydk(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> We had discussion on reasons why cmd+. is not always working. >>>> I made simple test which shows that VM is not issue. Following code normally stops after 20 seconds: >>>> >>>> hanging := [1 seconds wait. 1 recursionTest] newProcess. >>>> hanging priority: Processor activePriority + 10. >>>> interruptor := [ 20 seconds wait. hanging suspend] newProcess. >>>> interruptor priority: Processor activePriority + 11. >>>> >>>> hanging resume. >>>> interruptor resume. >>>> >>>> Recursion method: >>>> Integer>>recursionTest >>>> self recursionTest >>>> >>>> Hanging process produces 7 million contexts on my machine: >>>> >>>> c := hanging suspendedContext. >>>> count := 1. >>>> [ c notNil ] whileTrue: [ c := c sender. count := count + 1 ]. >>>> count Â«7395279" >>>> >>>> But if you try to debug it by "hanging debug" you will see how it is slow. It's caused by printing stack to file. >>>> Interesting that logging is performed before opening debugger. So every time we press cmd+. we are waiting logging to see debugger. >>>> >>>> We need to change this logic. >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> Denis >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> www.tudorgirba.com >>> www.feenk.com >>> >>> "One cannot do more than one can do." >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > www.feenk.com > > "Yesterday is a fact. > Tomorrow is a possibility. > Today is a challenge."

Aug. 14, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Interrupting process which hangs on recursion

by Tudor Girba

Hi, > On Aug 14, 2016, at 9:14 AM, Max Leske <maxleske(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Awesome Denis! > >> On 13 Aug 2016, at 10:54, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: >> >> Very cool analysis! >> >> What would your proposal be in this case? > > Some ideas: > > - perform logging in a separate process > - only log user interrupt once for any given time interval, i.e., while a previous interrupt is being logged, ignore logging for further interrupts. > > Alternatively: donât log user interrupts. I donât really see the value anyway. I kind of like the idea of not logging user interrupts. What do others think? Cheers, Doru > Cheers, > Max > >> >> Doru >> >> >>> On Aug 13, 2016, at 10:42 AM, Denis Kudriashov <dionisiydk(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> We had discussion on reasons why cmd+. is not always working. >>> I made simple test which shows that VM is not issue. Following code normally stops after 20 seconds: >>> >>> hanging := [1 seconds wait. 1 recursionTest] newProcess. >>> hanging priority: Processor activePriority + 10. >>> interruptor := [ 20 seconds wait. hanging suspend] newProcess. >>> interruptor priority: Processor activePriority + 11. >>> >>> hanging resume. >>> interruptor resume. >>> >>> Recursion method: >>> Integer>>recursionTest >>> self recursionTest >>> >>> Hanging process produces 7 million contexts on my machine: >>> >>> c := hanging suspendedContext. >>> count := 1. >>> [ c notNil ] whileTrue: [ c := c sender. count := count + 1 ]. >>> count Â«7395279" >>> >>> But if you try to debug it by "hanging debug" you will see how it is slow. It's caused by printing stack to file. >>> Interesting that logging is performed before opening debugger. So every time we press cmd+. we are waiting logging to see debugger. >>> >>> We need to change this logic. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> Denis >>> >> >> -- >> www.tudorgirba.com >> www.feenk.com >> >> "One cannot do more than one can do." >> >> >> >> >> > > -- www.tudorgirba.com www.feenk.com "Yesterday is a fact. Tomorrow is a possibility. Today is a challenge."

Aug. 14, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Interrupting process which hangs on recursion

by Max Leske

Awesome Denis! > On 13 Aug 2016, at 10:54, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: > > Very cool analysis! > > What would your proposal be in this case? Some ideas: - perform logging in a separate process - only log user interrupt once for any given time interval, i.e., while a previous interrupt is being logged, ignore logging for further interrupts. Alternatively: donât log user interrupts. I donât really see the value anyway. Cheers, Max > > Doru > > >> On Aug 13, 2016, at 10:42 AM, Denis Kudriashov <dionisiydk(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> We had discussion on reasons why cmd+. is not always working. >> I made simple test which shows that VM is not issue. Following code normally stops after 20 seconds: >> >> hanging := [1 seconds wait. 1 recursionTest] newProcess. >> hanging priority: Processor activePriority + 10. >> interruptor := [ 20 seconds wait. hanging suspend] newProcess. >> interruptor priority: Processor activePriority + 11. >> >> hanging resume. >> interruptor resume. >> >> Recursion method: >> Integer>>recursionTest >> self recursionTest >> >> Hanging process produces 7 million contexts on my machine: >> >> c := hanging suspendedContext. >> count := 1. >> [ c notNil ] whileTrue: [ c := c sender. count := count + 1 ]. >> count Â«7395279" >> >> But if you try to debug it by "hanging debug" you will see how it is slow. It's caused by printing stack to file. >> Interesting that logging is performed before opening debugger. So every time we press cmd+. we are waiting logging to see debugger. >> >> We need to change this logic. >> >> Best regards, >> Denis >> > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > www.feenk.com > > "One cannot do more than one can do." > > > > >

Aug. 14, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] missing message pattern in pharo 5.0 gives misleading error message:

by Nicolai Hess

2016-08-13 2:54 GMT+02:00 Dale Henrichs <dale.henrichs(a)gemtalksystems.com>: > Actually I'm just suggesting that the error message is ambiguous and I > that an error message that acknowledged the ambiguity would be useful. ... > pretty simple change I would think ... > > If one WERE writing a method using the | message selector, the existing > error messages make perfect sense. For everyone else making the mistake of > missing the message pattern, the additional information takes away the > confusion ... > > Changing the error message for this case is all that I'm suggesting .... > and it is just a suggestion to make things easier for beginners who do not > have a Smalltalk compiler in the their heads ... > > Dale > > I opened an issue 18932 <https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18932/better-error-message-for-missing-me…> better error message for missing message pattern > > On 08/12/2016 03:36 PM, Nicolas Cellier wrote: > > But the bar is a valid binary selector which takes a text parameter > > | text > | text '|' expected -> > := self requestPassword > > You seem to suggest that the parser should use formatting, > presence/absence or spaces/newlines, but it never did so, it just > skips/ignores spaces. > The parser process as much as possible until the first error. It never did > a global analysis to find the minimal error. That's a far more difficult > problem. > > Note that for the same kind of reason, while we could make ^ a binary > selector as I proposed once, we didn't yet by fear of interpreting things > differently in case of missing period: > > self seeThePeriodMissingAtEndOfThisSentence > ^self > > > 2016-08-13 0:02 GMT+02:00 Dale Henrichs <dale.henrichs(a)gemtalksystems.com> > : > >> >> >> On 08/12/2016 11:40 AM, Nicolai Hess wrote: >> >> >> >> 2016-08-12 20:30 GMT+02:00 Dale Henrichs <dale.henrichs@gemtalksystems. >> com>: >> >>> `'|' expected` is not the error message I would expect when the message >>> pattern is missing from a method and I try to accept in browser: >>> >>> >>> | text | >>> text '|' expected ->:= self requestPassword >>> ifTrue: [ UIManager default requestPassword: self prompt ] >>> ifFalse: [ UIManager default request: self prompt initialAnswer: >>> self template ]. >>> ^ (text isNil or: [ text isEmpty ]) >>> ifTrue: [ nil ] >>> ifFalse: [ text ] >>> >>> The highlighter was also confused turning red at the `->` instead at the >>> very beginning of the method ... >>> >> >> yeah, this is a funny one. >> I onced debugged the parser to find out why that's happening. Can you >> spot why this is a valid method : >> >> | text | >> | ^ text >> >> :) >> >> I cheated and used the syntax highlighting to give me subtle but import >> clues :) Things I missed when initially trying to figure out what I had >> done wrong ... perhaps an error message that special cases this would be >> called for: "'|' expected or missing message message pattern" ... There are >> at least two developers who expected the syntax highlighter to do a better >> job ... and I sent this thinking about newbies running into what I assume >> would be a common mistake ... >> >> Dale >> >> >> > >

Aug. 13, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Interrupting process which hangs on recursion

by Tudor Girba

Very cool analysis! What would your proposal be in this case? Doru > On Aug 13, 2016, at 10:42 AM, Denis Kudriashov <dionisiydk(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > We had discussion on reasons why cmd+. is not always working. > I made simple test which shows that VM is not issue. Following code normally stops after 20 seconds: > > hanging := [1 seconds wait. 1 recursionTest] newProcess. > hanging priority: Processor activePriority + 10. > interruptor := [ 20 seconds wait. hanging suspend] newProcess. > interruptor priority: Processor activePriority + 11. > > hanging resume. > interruptor resume. > > Recursion method: > Integer>>recursionTest > self recursionTest > > Hanging process produces 7 million contexts on my machine: > > c := hanging suspendedContext. > count := 1. > [ c notNil ] whileTrue: [ c := c sender. count := count + 1 ]. > count Â«7395279" > > But if you try to debug it by "hanging debug" you will see how it is slow. It's caused by printing stack to file. > Interesting that logging is performed before opening debugger. So every time we press cmd+. we are waiting logging to see debugger. > > We need to change this logic. > > Best regards, > Denis > -- www.tudorgirba.com www.feenk.com "One cannot do more than one can do."

Aug. 13, 2016

Interrupting process which hangs on recursion

by Denis Kudriashov

We had discussion on reasons why cmd+. is not always working. I made simple test which shows that VM is not issue. Following code normally stops after 20 seconds: hanging := [1 seconds wait. 1 recursionTest] newProcess. hanging priority: Processor activePriority + 10. interruptor := [ 20 seconds wait. hanging suspend] newProcess. interruptor priority: Processor activePriority + 11. hanging resume. interruptor resume. Recursion method: Integer>>recursionTest self recursionTest Hanging process produces 7 million contexts on my machine: c := hanging suspendedContext. count := 1. [ c notNil ] whileTrue: [ c := c sender. count := count + 1 ]. count Â«7395279" But if you try to debug it by "hanging debug" you will see how it is slow. It's caused by printing stack to file. Interesting that logging is performed before opening debugger. So every time we press cmd+. we are waiting logging to see debugger. We need to change this logic. Best regards, Denis

Aug. 13, 2016

[pharo-project/pharo-core]

by GitHub

Branch: refs/tags/60180 Home: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-core

Aug. 13, 2016

[pharo-project/pharo-core] e265d1: 60180

by GitHub

Branch: refs/heads/6.0 Home: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-core Commit: e265d16daf788f4dfdc917ccb1be150ca35d8c19 https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-core/commit/e265d16daf788f4dfdc917cc… Author: Jenkins Build Server <board(a)pharo-project.org> Date: 2016-08-13 (Sat, 13 Aug 2016) Changed paths: A Collections-Grid-Tests.package/CTGridTest.class/README.md A Collections-Grid-Tests.package/CTGridTest.class/definition.st A Collections-Grid-Tests.package/CTGridTest.class/instance/old setup/grid22.st A Collections-Grid-Tests.package/CTGridTest.class/instance/old setup/grid228.st A Collections-Grid-Tests.package/CTGridTest.class/instance/old setup/grid2x3.st A Collections-Grid-Tests.package/CTGridTest.class/instance/setup/grid22WithPointLocationCreatedWithRows.st A Collections-Grid-Tests.package/CTGridTest.class/instance/setup/grid3x2BooksCreatedWithRows.st A Collections-Grid-Tests.package/CTGridTest.class/instance/setup/grid6x2.st A Collections-Grid-Tests.package/CTGridTest.class/instance/setup/gridClass.st A Collections-Grid-Tests.package/CTGridTest.class/instance/setup/setUp.st A Collections-Grid-Tests.package/CTGridTest.class/instance/tests - accessing/testColumnCount.st A Collections-Grid-Tests.package/CTGridTest.class/instance/tests - copying/testCopy.st A Collections-Grid-Tests.package/CTGridTest.class/instance/tests - filling/testSwap.st A Collections-Grid-Tests.package/CTGridTest.class/instance/tests - filling/testSwapPointAPI.st A Collections-Grid-Tests.package/CTGridTest.class/instance/tests - instance creation/testAnotherCreationWithRows.st A Collections-Grid-Tests.package/CTGridTest.class/instance/tests - instance creation/testCreationGridCreationWithColumnsRows.st A Collections-Grid-Tests.package/CTGridTest.class/instance/tests - instance creation/testCreationGridCreationWithRowsColumns.st A Collections-Grid-Tests.package/CTGridTest.class/instance/tests - instance creation/testCreationWithRows.st A Collections-Grid-Tests.package/CTGridTest.class/instance/tests - instance creation/testDifferentCreationGridAreEqual.st A Collections-Grid-Tests.package/CTGridTest.class/instance/tests - iterating/testRows.st A Collections-Grid-Tests.package/CTGridTest.class/instance/tests - 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accessing/testReplaceAll.st A Collections-Grid-Tests.package/CTGridTest.class/instance/torevisit- tests - accessing/testSquaredWithAllElement.st A Collections-Grid-Tests.package/CTGridTest.class/instance/torevisit- tests - accessing/testTransposed.st A Collections-Grid-Tests.package/CTGridTest.class/instance/torevisit-tests - instance creation/testWithColumns.st A Collections-Grid-Tests.package/CTGridTest.class/instance/torevisit-tests - instance creation/testWithRows.st R Collections-Tests.package/CTGridTest.class/README.md R Collections-Tests.package/CTGridTest.class/definition.st R Collections-Tests.package/CTGridTest.class/instance/old setup/grid22.st R Collections-Tests.package/CTGridTest.class/instance/old setup/grid228.st R Collections-Tests.package/CTGridTest.class/instance/old setup/grid2x3.st R Collections-Tests.package/CTGridTest.class/instance/setup/grid22WithPointLocationCreatedWithRows.st R Collections-Tests.package/CTGridTest.class/instance/setup/grid3x2BooksCreatedWithRows.st R Collections-Tests.package/CTGridTest.class/instance/setup/grid6x2.st R Collections-Tests.package/CTGridTest.class/instance/setup/gridClass.st R Collections-Tests.package/CTGridTest.class/instance/setup/setUp.st R Collections-Tests.package/CTGridTest.class/instance/tests - accessing/testColumnCount.st R Collections-Tests.package/CTGridTest.class/instance/tests - copying/testCopy.st R Collections-Tests.package/CTGridTest.class/instance/tests - filling/testSwap.st R Collections-Tests.package/CTGridTest.class/instance/tests - filling/testSwapPointAPI.st R Collections-Tests.package/CTGridTest.class/instance/tests - instance creation/testAnotherCreationWithRows.st R Collections-Tests.package/CTGridTest.class/instance/tests - instance creation/testCreationGridCreationWithColumnsRows.st R Collections-Tests.package/CTGridTest.class/instance/tests - instance creation/testCreationGridCreationWithRowsColumns.st R Collections-Tests.package/CTGridTest.class/instance/tests - instance creation/testCreationWithRows.st R Collections-Tests.package/CTGridTest.class/instance/tests - instance creation/testDifferentCreationGridAreEqual.st R Collections-Tests.package/CTGridTest.class/instance/tests - iterating/testRows.st R Collections-Tests.package/CTGridTest.class/instance/tests - testing/testExtent.st R Collections-Tests.package/CTGridTest.class/instance/tests - testing/testTabulate.st R Collections-Tests.package/CTGridTest.class/instance/tests - testing/testTabulateEquals.st R Collections-Tests.package/CTGridTest.class/instance/torevisit- tests - accessing/testAtAllPut.st R Collections-Tests.package/CTGridTest.class/instance/torevisit- tests - accessing/testAtAt.st R Collections-Tests.package/CTGridTest.class/instance/torevisit- tests - accessing/testAtColumn.st R Collections-Tests.package/CTGridTest.class/instance/torevisit- tests - accessing/testAtRow.st R Collections-Tests.package/CTGridTest.class/instance/torevisit- tests - accessing/testCollectCreatesANewGrid.st R Collections-Tests.package/CTGridTest.class/instance/torevisit- tests - accessing/testContentsEncodings.st R Collections-Tests.package/CTGridTest.class/instance/torevisit- tests - accessing/testIncludes.st R Collections-Tests.package/CTGridTest.class/instance/torevisit- tests - accessing/testReplaceAll.st R Collections-Tests.package/CTGridTest.class/instance/torevisit- tests - 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updates/update60179.st A ScriptLoader60.package/ScriptLoader.class/instance/pharo - updates/update60180.st M ScriptLoader60.package/ScriptLoader.class/instance/public/commentForCurrentUpdate.st M System-Support.package/SystemNavigation.class/instance/query/allReferencesTo_.st M Traits.package/TBehavior.class/instance/traits/addTraitSelector_withMethod_.st Log Message: ----------- 60180 18920 optional work with sources in TBehavior>>#addTraitSelector:withMethod: https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18920 18927 Komitter throws up if it has committed everything https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18927 18919 GridTests should not be part of CollectionsTests https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18919 18924 Small demo: type feedback using meta links https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18924 18913 simplify #allReferencesTo: https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18913 http://files.pharo.org/image/60/60180.zip

Aug. 13, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] missing message pattern in pharo 5.0 gives misleading error message:

by Dale Henrichs

Actually I'm just suggesting that the error message is ambiguous and I that an error message that acknowledged the ambiguity would be useful. ... pretty simple change I would think ... If one WERE writing a method using the | message selector, the existing error messages make perfect sense. For everyone else making the mistake of missing the message pattern, the additional information takes away the confusion ... Changing the error message for this case is all that I'm suggesting .... and it is just a suggestion to make things easier for beginners who do not have a Smalltalk compiler in the their heads ... Dale On 08/12/2016 03:36 PM, Nicolas Cellier wrote: > But the bar is a valid binary selector which takes a text parameter > > | text > | text '|' expected -> > := self requestPassword > > You seem to suggest that the parser should use formatting, > presence/absence or spaces/newlines, but it never did so, it just > skips/ignores spaces. > The parser process as much as possible until the first error. It never > did a global analysis to find the minimal error. That's a far more > difficult problem. > > Note that for the same kind of reason, while we could make ^ a binary > selector as I proposed once, we didn't yet by fear of interpreting > things differently in case of missing period: > > self seeThePeriodMissingAtEndOfThisSentence > ^self > > > 2016-08-13 0:02 GMT+02:00 Dale Henrichs > <dale.henrichs(a)gemtalksystems.com > <mailto:dale.henrichs@gemtalksystems.com>>: > > > > On 08/12/2016 11:40 AM, Nicolai Hess wrote: >> >> >> 2016-08-12 20:30 GMT+02:00 Dale Henrichs >> <dale.henrichs(a)gemtalksystems.com >> <mailto:dale.henrichs@gemtalksystems.com>>: >> >> `'|' expected` is not the error message I would expect when >> the message pattern is missing from a method and I try to >> accept in browser: >> >> >> | text | >> text '|' expected ->:= self requestPassword >> ifTrue: [ UIManager default requestPassword: self >> prompt ] >> ifFalse: [ UIManager default request: self prompt >> initialAnswer: self template ]. >> ^ (text isNil or: [ text isEmpty ]) >> ifTrue: [ nil ] >> ifFalse: [ text ] >> >> The highlighter was also confused turning red at the `->` >> instead at the very beginning of the method ... >> >> >> yeah, this is a funny one. >> I onced debugged the parser to find out why that's happening. Can >> you spot why this is a valid method : >> >> | text | >> | ^ text >> >> :) > I cheated and used the syntax highlighting to give me subtle but > import clues :) Things I missed when initially trying to figure > out what I had done wrong ... perhaps an error message that > special cases this would be called for: "'|' expected or missing > message message pattern" ... There are at least two developers who > expected the syntax highlighter to do a better job ... and I sent > this thinking about newbies running into what I assume would be a > common mistake ... > > Dale > > >

Aug. 13, 2016