June 2016 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] bloc status update: june 2016

by Dimitris Chloupis

I am not the kind of guy to tell other people what is acceptable and what is not Actually its perfectly acceptable because its your code and your entitled to do whatever you want with it. You ask me how many open source and even commercial projects there are out there that have partial or bad documentation. I will say the vast majority. However Tudor said that feedback is very important for the team and I am willing to assume here that they would not complain if more joined their effort to further speed up the replacement of Morphic with Bloc. People cannot contribute or provide feedback to something they dont understand. Its a high standard to write a few lines per class and spend no more than 20 seconds when the benefits in doing so will be massive ? Sorry but I dont agree, writting class comments is super simple and super fast there are no excuses. And no it does not matter if your library is 1 billion methods. Seriously you think that anyone will actually be motivated when you end up with 1 00 classes to write comments for it ? This exactly why documentation always suffer because you live it last and it looks like a mountain to climb. One of the best quotes I have read is the following "Documentation is not mandatory by itself, its mandatory only when you want your project to succeed" But if the majority of pharo users agree with your opinion that writing code is more important than documenting it, so be it, I will have to live with that. On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 11:46 AM Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > You are right, code without comments is not acceptable. > > But, but. > > How many serious, non-trivial, public code bases consisting of 10s or 100s > of classes and 1000s or 10000s of methods have you, or anyone else giving > remarks, written and FULLY documented according to those high standards ? > > I prefer for people to actually write code and hope that they will > eventually document it all. > > > On 21 Jun 2016, at 10:22, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > One day I will find out why developers hate documentation so much , or > at least why they think features and code is more important than its > documentation. > > > > In the mean time, personally I wont give feedback to something that I > have to waste my time reading code because spending 10 seconds per class is > a second or third priority for you. > > > > No examples are not enough, actually I take class comments over examples > any day. > > > > Wish you good luck in your effort and thank you for trying to make Pharo > better , I may be annoyed with the Pharo documentation problem, but that > does not mean I dont appreciate the efforts to improve Pharo. > > > > On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 11:11 AM Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> > wrote: > > Hi Clement, > > > > Thanks for looking at it. > > > > Indeed, there arenât many comments. A large part of the engine got > rewritten twice over the last months, and many of the previous comments > were no longer up to date. > > > > And no, the policy is not to not write comments :), but right now the > priority is on building examples. which you will find in the > Bloc-Core-Examples classes and their subclasses. > > > > Cheers, > > Doru > > > > > > > > > On Jun 21, 2016, at 9:39 AM, ClÃ©ment Bera <bera.clement(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Doru, > > > > > > I downloaded the image, opened Nautilus, clicked on the package named > 'Bloc-Core' and all the classes I can see have no class comments (See > screenshot below). Is there a 'No class comment' policy in Bloc ? Or maybe > the top classes shown are just non representative of the class comments of > the overall framework. > > > > > > <Screen Shot 2016-06-21 at 9.33.31 AM.png> > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 7:42 AM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> > wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > Here is a brief update on the status of Bloc. > > > > > > Several of us came together to form a team and work to see Bloc in > Pharo 6 at least as a preview. The team communication happens via Slack in > a dedicated team, and the goal is to have regular progress/feedback > communication on this mailing list. > > > > > > Just because we have a dedicated team does not mean that your feedback > is important. In fact, over the last months, Bloc was redesigned again to > include the feedback we got here. So, now we have: > > > - Element is responsible for drawing (no more shape) > > > - Interaction area and clipping area are now distinct > > > > > > You can find the current build on top of Pharo 6 here: > > > > https://ci.inria.fr/moose/job/bloc/PHARO=alpha,VERSION=development,VM=vmLat… > > > > > > The current team focus goes like this: > > > - Alain is looking at events, > > > - Glenn is playing with creating new elements in Bloc and refactoring > the way we can manage , > > > - Alex (Syrel) and Esteban are working on the backend to make > rendering faster, > > > - Doru is pretending to do something useful. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Doru > > > > > > > > > -- > > > www.tudorgirba.com > > > www.feenk.com > > > > > > "What we can governs what we wish." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > www.tudorgirba.com > > www.feenk.com > > > > "Presenting is storytelling." > > > > > > >

June 21, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Better #haltOnce: per haltOnce state, auto-enable

by Tudor Girba

Awesome! Doru > On Jun 21, 2016, at 11:19 AM, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr> wrote: > > Hi, > > Another small iteration: now you can mouse over the Icon of #halOnce and #haltOnCount: and the > current state is displayed (if the haltOnce is active, the count of the #haltOnCount:). > > this is in 60 update 101 > > Marcus -- www.tudorgirba.com www.feenk.com "It's not how it is, it is how we see it."

June 21, 2016

[pharo-project/pharo-core] 54018e: 60101

by GitHub

Branch: refs/heads/6.0 Home: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-core Commit: 54018e830c145b3cdbb74c7cf6b6bbdd83acf56b https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-core/commit/54018e830c145b3cdbb74c7c… Author: Jenkins Build Server <board(a)pharo-project.org> Date: 2016-06-21 (Tue, 21 Jun 2016) Changed paths: R Kernel-Rules.package/FloatReferencesRule.class/instance/running/check_forCriticsDo_ifNone_.st A Kernel-Rules.package/FloatReferencesRule.class/instance/running/check_forCritiquesDo_ifNone_.st A Kernel-Rules.package/OverridesDeprecatedMethodRule.class/README.md A Kernel-Rules.package/OverridesDeprecatedMethodRule.class/class/accessing/uniqueIdentifierName.st A Kernel-Rules.package/OverridesDeprecatedMethodRule.class/class/testing/checksMethod.st A Kernel-Rules.package/OverridesDeprecatedMethodRule.class/definition.st A Kernel-Rules.package/OverridesDeprecatedMethodRule.class/instance/accessing/group.st A 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ScriptLoader60.package/ScriptLoader.class/instance/pharo - updates/update60101.st M ScriptLoader60.package/ScriptLoader.class/instance/public/commentForCurrentUpdate.st M Spec-Tools.package/MessageBrowser.class/instance/initialization/initializePresenter.st M Tool-Diff.package/PSMCChangesGrouper.class/instance/visitor/visitScriptDefinition_.st Log Message: ----------- 60101 18546 haltOnce and haltOnCount: Icon label should provide information https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18546 18325 Deprecation critiques https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18325 18491 Cannot show changes in packages with postscript (like Alien) https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18491 http://files.pharo.org/image/60/60101.zip

June 21, 2016

[pharo-project/pharo-core]

by GitHub

Branch: refs/tags/60101 Home: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-core

June 21, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Better #haltOnce: per haltOnce state, auto-enable

by Marcus Denker

Hi, Another small iteration: now you can mouse over the Icon of #halOnce and #haltOnCount: and the current state is displayed (if the haltOnce is active, the count of the #haltOnCount:). this is in 60 update 101 Marcus

June 21, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] bloc status update: june 2016

by Thierry Goubier

Hi Sven, 2016-06-21 10:45 GMT+02:00 Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu>: > You are right, code without comments is not acceptable. > > But, but. > > How many serious, non-trivial, public code bases consisting of 10s or 100s > of classes and 1000s or 10000s of methods have you, or anyone else giving > remarks, written and FULLY documented according to those high standards ? > That many classes undocumented is not justified by any standard, be it work in progress or not. Generated classes, ok. Last few created classes, ok. A complete hierarchy of classes without a single line of comment? Sorry, no, not justified. > I prefer for people to actually write code and hope that they will > eventually document it all. > Given the lack of comments, I'd suspect this is considered as 'could be rewritten entirely' anytime soon. Not something one should invest on to understand or follow. The problem I see there is the investment one has to make to participate (or just have a look). Creating barriers like an apparent lack of comment (or a 'work in progress : not stable' tag) increase the necessary investment to put into (taking in account GUI toolkits are never 'simple', 'easy' stuff to start with). Hum, in that latest Bloc as far as I could see: nothing else than layout examples? Hard to get around in that stuff with Nautilus. Thierry > > > On 21 Jun 2016, at 10:22, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > One day I will find out why developers hate documentation so much , or > at least why they think features and code is more important than its > documentation. > > > > In the mean time, personally I wont give feedback to something that I > have to waste my time reading code because spending 10 seconds per class is > a second or third priority for you. > > > > No examples are not enough, actually I take class comments over examples > any day. > > > > Wish you good luck in your effort and thank you for trying to make Pharo > better , I may be annoyed with the Pharo documentation problem, but that > does not mean I dont appreciate the efforts to improve Pharo. > > > > On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 11:11 AM Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> > wrote: > > Hi Clement, > > > > Thanks for looking at it. > > > > Indeed, there arenât many comments. A large part of the engine got > rewritten twice over the last months, and many of the previous comments > were no longer up to date. > > > > And no, the policy is not to not write comments :), but right now the > priority is on building examples. which you will find in the > Bloc-Core-Examples classes and their subclasses. > > > > Cheers, > > Doru > > > > > > > > > On Jun 21, 2016, at 9:39 AM, ClÃ©ment Bera <bera.clement(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Doru, > > > > > > I downloaded the image, opened Nautilus, clicked on the package named > 'Bloc-Core' and all the classes I can see have no class comments (See > screenshot below). Is there a 'No class comment' policy in Bloc ? Or maybe > the top classes shown are just non representative of the class comments of > the overall framework. > > > > > > <Screen Shot 2016-06-21 at 9.33.31 AM.png> > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 7:42 AM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> > wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > Here is a brief update on the status of Bloc. > > > > > > Several of us came together to form a team and work to see Bloc in > Pharo 6 at least as a preview. The team communication happens via Slack in > a dedicated team, and the goal is to have regular progress/feedback > communication on this mailing list. > > > > > > Just because we have a dedicated team does not mean that your feedback > is important. In fact, over the last months, Bloc was redesigned again to > include the feedback we got here. So, now we have: > > > - Element is responsible for drawing (no more shape) > > > - Interaction area and clipping area are now distinct > > > > > > You can find the current build on top of Pharo 6 here: > > > > https://ci.inria.fr/moose/job/bloc/PHARO=alpha,VERSION=development,VM=vmLat… > > > > > > The current team focus goes like this: > > > - Alain is looking at events, > > > - Glenn is playing with creating new elements in Bloc and refactoring > the way we can manage , > > > - Alex (Syrel) and Esteban are working on the backend to make > rendering faster, > > > - Doru is pretending to do something useful. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Doru > > > > > > > > > -- > > > www.tudorgirba.com > > > www.feenk.com > > > > > > "What we can governs what we wish." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > www.tudorgirba.com > > www.feenk.com > > > > "Presenting is storytelling." > > > > > > >

June 21, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] bloc status update: june 2016

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

You are right, code without comments is not acceptable. But, but. How many serious, non-trivial, public code bases consisting of 10s or 100s of classes and 1000s or 10000s of methods have you, or anyone else giving remarks, written and FULLY documented according to those high standards ? I prefer for people to actually write code and hope that they will eventually document it all. > On 21 Jun 2016, at 10:22, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > One day I will find out why developers hate documentation so much , or at least why they think features and code is more important than its documentation. > > In the mean time, personally I wont give feedback to something that I have to waste my time reading code because spending 10 seconds per class is a second or third priority for you. > > No examples are not enough, actually I take class comments over examples any day. > > Wish you good luck in your effort and thank you for trying to make Pharo better , I may be annoyed with the Pharo documentation problem, but that does not mean I dont appreciate the efforts to improve Pharo. > > On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 11:11 AM Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: > Hi Clement, > > Thanks for looking at it. > > Indeed, there arenât many comments. A large part of the engine got rewritten twice over the last months, and many of the previous comments were no longer up to date. > > And no, the policy is not to not write comments :), but right now the priority is on building examples. which you will find in the Bloc-Core-Examples classes and their subclasses. > > Cheers, > Doru > > > > > On Jun 21, 2016, at 9:39 AM, ClÃ©ment Bera <bera.clement(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Hi Doru, > > > > I downloaded the image, opened Nautilus, clicked on the package named 'Bloc-Core' and all the classes I can see have no class comments (See screenshot below). Is there a 'No class comment' policy in Bloc ? Or maybe the top classes shown are just non representative of the class comments of the overall framework. > > > > <Screen Shot 2016-06-21 at 9.33.31 AM.png> > > > > On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 7:42 AM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Here is a brief update on the status of Bloc. > > > > Several of us came together to form a team and work to see Bloc in Pharo 6 at least as a preview. The team communication happens via Slack in a dedicated team, and the goal is to have regular progress/feedback communication on this mailing list. > > > > Just because we have a dedicated team does not mean that your feedback is important. In fact, over the last months, Bloc was redesigned again to include the feedback we got here. So, now we have: > > - Element is responsible for drawing (no more shape) > > - Interaction area and clipping area are now distinct > > > > You can find the current build on top of Pharo 6 here: > > https://ci.inria.fr/moose/job/bloc/PHARO=alpha,VERSION=development,VM=vmLat… > > > > The current team focus goes like this: > > - Alain is looking at events, > > - Glenn is playing with creating new elements in Bloc and refactoring the way we can manage , > > - Alex (Syrel) and Esteban are working on the backend to make rendering faster, > > - Doru is pretending to do something useful. > > > > Cheers, > > Doru > > > > > > -- > > www.tudorgirba.com > > www.feenk.com > > > > "What we can governs what we wish." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > www.feenk.com > > "Presenting is storytelling." > >

June 21, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] bloc status update: june 2016

by ClÃ©ment Bera

Hi Doru, Ok I understand I have issues keeping comments updated in my projects too :-). Do your best. I tried to run the examples from Bloc-Core-Examples but they didn't work. I downloaded the latest Pharo-Spur32 VM from files.pharo.org and retried and it still didn't work. How can I have the examples running ? Here is the errors I have for the first two examples of BlExampleElementWithBorderAndFill. [image: Inline image 2] Here are the examples: [image: Inline image 1] Best, Clement On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 10:09 AM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: > Hi Clement, > > Thanks for looking at it. > > Indeed, there arenât many comments. A large part of the engine got > rewritten twice over the last months, and many of the previous comments > were no longer up to date. > > And no, the policy is not to not write comments :), but right now the > priority is on building examples. which you will find in the > Bloc-Core-Examples classes and their subclasses. > > Cheers, > Doru > > > > > On Jun 21, 2016, at 9:39 AM, ClÃ©ment Bera <bera.clement(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > Hi Doru, > > > > I downloaded the image, opened Nautilus, clicked on the package named > 'Bloc-Core' and all the classes I can see have no class comments (See > screenshot below). Is there a 'No class comment' policy in Bloc ? Or maybe > the top classes shown are just non representative of the class comments of > the overall framework. > > > > <Screen Shot 2016-06-21 at 9.33.31 AM.png> > > > > On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 7:42 AM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> > wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Here is a brief update on the status of Bloc. > > > > Several of us came together to form a team and work to see Bloc in Pharo > 6 at least as a preview. The team communication happens via Slack in a > dedicated team, and the goal is to have regular progress/feedback > communication on this mailing list. > > > > Just because we have a dedicated team does not mean that your feedback > is important. In fact, over the last months, Bloc was redesigned again to > include the feedback we got here. So, now we have: > > - Element is responsible for drawing (no more shape) > > - Interaction area and clipping area are now distinct > > > > You can find the current build on top of Pharo 6 here: > > > https://ci.inria.fr/moose/job/bloc/PHARO=alpha,VERSION=development,VM=vmLat… > > > > The current team focus goes like this: > > - Alain is looking at events, > > - Glenn is playing with creating new elements in Bloc and refactoring > the way we can manage , > > - Alex (Syrel) and Esteban are working on the backend to make rendering > faster, > > - Doru is pretending to do something useful. > > > > Cheers, > > Doru > > > > > > -- > > www.tudorgirba.com > > www.feenk.com > > > > "What we can governs what we wish." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > www.feenk.com > > "Presenting is storytelling." > > >

June 21, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] bloc status update: june 2016

by Dimitris Chloupis

One day I will find out why developers hate documentation so much , or at least why they think features and code is more important than its documentation. In the mean time, personally I wont give feedback to something that I have to waste my time reading code because spending 10 seconds per class is a second or third priority for you. No examples are not enough, actually I take class comments over examples any day. Wish you good luck in your effort and thank you for trying to make Pharo better , I may be annoyed with the Pharo documentation problem, but that does not mean I dont appreciate the efforts to improve Pharo. On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 11:11 AM Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: > Hi Clement, > > Thanks for looking at it. > > Indeed, there arenât many comments. A large part of the engine got > rewritten twice over the last months, and many of the previous comments > were no longer up to date. > > And no, the policy is not to not write comments :), but right now the > priority is on building examples. which you will find in the > Bloc-Core-Examples classes and their subclasses. > > Cheers, > Doru > > > > > On Jun 21, 2016, at 9:39 AM, ClÃ©ment Bera <bera.clement(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > Hi Doru, > > > > I downloaded the image, opened Nautilus, clicked on the package named > 'Bloc-Core' and all the classes I can see have no class comments (See > screenshot below). Is there a 'No class comment' policy in Bloc ? Or maybe > the top classes shown are just non representative of the class comments of > the overall framework. > > > > <Screen Shot 2016-06-21 at 9.33.31 AM.png> > > > > On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 7:42 AM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> > wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Here is a brief update on the status of Bloc. > > > > Several of us came together to form a team and work to see Bloc in Pharo > 6 at least as a preview. The team communication happens via Slack in a > dedicated team, and the goal is to have regular progress/feedback > communication on this mailing list. > > > > Just because we have a dedicated team does not mean that your feedback > is important. In fact, over the last months, Bloc was redesigned again to > include the feedback we got here. So, now we have: > > - Element is responsible for drawing (no more shape) > > - Interaction area and clipping area are now distinct > > > > You can find the current build on top of Pharo 6 here: > > > https://ci.inria.fr/moose/job/bloc/PHARO=alpha,VERSION=development,VM=vmLat… > > > > The current team focus goes like this: > > - Alain is looking at events, > > - Glenn is playing with creating new elements in Bloc and refactoring > the way we can manage , > > - Alex (Syrel) and Esteban are working on the backend to make rendering > faster, > > - Doru is pretending to do something useful. > > > > Cheers, > > Doru > > > > > > -- > > www.tudorgirba.com > > www.feenk.com > > > > "What we can governs what we wish." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > www.feenk.com > > "Presenting is storytelling." > > >

June 21, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] bloc status update: june 2016

by Tudor Girba

Hi Clement, Thanks for looking at it. Indeed, there arenât many comments. A large part of the engine got rewritten twice over the last months, and many of the previous comments were no longer up to date. And no, the policy is not to not write comments :), but right now the priority is on building examples. which you will find in the Bloc-Core-Examples classes and their subclasses. Cheers, Doru > On Jun 21, 2016, at 9:39 AM, ClÃ©ment Bera <bera.clement(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi Doru, > > I downloaded the image, opened Nautilus, clicked on the package named 'Bloc-Core' and all the classes I can see have no class comments (See screenshot below). Is there a 'No class comment' policy in Bloc ? Or maybe the top classes shown are just non representative of the class comments of the overall framework. > > <Screen Shot 2016-06-21 at 9.33.31 AM.png> > > On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 7:42 AM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: > Hi, > > Here is a brief update on the status of Bloc. > > Several of us came together to form a team and work to see Bloc in Pharo 6 at least as a preview. The team communication happens via Slack in a dedicated team, and the goal is to have regular progress/feedback communication on this mailing list. > > Just because we have a dedicated team does not mean that your feedback is important. In fact, over the last months, Bloc was redesigned again to include the feedback we got here. So, now we have: > - Element is responsible for drawing (no more shape) > - Interaction area and clipping area are now distinct > > You can find the current build on top of Pharo 6 here: > https://ci.inria.fr/moose/job/bloc/PHARO=alpha,VERSION=development,VM=vmLat… > > The current team focus goes like this: > - Alain is looking at events, > - Glenn is playing with creating new elements in Bloc and refactoring the way we can manage , > - Alex (Syrel) and Esteban are working on the backend to make rendering faster, > - Doru is pretending to do something useful. > > Cheers, > Doru > > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > www.feenk.com > > "What we can governs what we wish." > > > > > > -- www.tudorgirba.com www.feenk.com "Presenting is storytelling."

June 21, 2016