April 2016 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] TxText model

by philippe.back＠highoctane.be

On Apr 4, 2016 3:54 PM, "Igor Stasenko" <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On 4 April 2016 at 16:41, Stephan Eggermont <stephan(a)stack.nl> wrote: >> >> On 04-04-16 14:49, Igor Stasenko wrote: >>> >>> Oh, and aside all of that.. Making a full-fledged word processor is not >>> just a regular engineering task. You need an expert of publishing, expert >>> in fonts and typography. That's right from the beginning. >>> And i am not that expert in this domain(s). >>> So, next time, when we start talking about things like page layouts, >>> columns, margins, tabs, references and other stuff, first find an expert >>> who will be able to transform these terms into technical requirements. >>> If you think it so simple, it is not: because all those terms came from >>> paper-publishing domain, that existed even before first computer came to >>> existence. >>> The capabilities of TxText and whether it will be capable to handle well >>> complexities of full-fledged word processing features, at this point, >>> without having an expert is nothing but just a speculation. >> >> >> I know enough about typesetting and producing technical documentation. >> > And i have no idea what typesetting means. I can only guess , since it is compound from familiar 'type' and 'setting' words. > And technical documentation.. now i start having a headache :) Is TxText part of the image? Any configuration? Phil > >> >> Stephan >> >> > > > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko.

April 4, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] TxText model

by Igor Stasenko

On 4 April 2016 at 16:41, Stephan Eggermont <stephan(a)stack.nl> wrote: > On 04-04-16 14:49, Igor Stasenko wrote: > >> Oh, and aside all of that.. Making a full-fledged word processor is not >> just a regular engineering task. You need an expert of publishing, expert >> in fonts and typography. That's right from the beginning. >> And i am not that expert in this domain(s). >> So, next time, when we start talking about things like page layouts, >> columns, margins, tabs, references and other stuff, first find an expert >> who will be able to transform these terms into technical requirements. >> If you think it so simple, it is not: because all those terms came from >> paper-publishing domain, that existed even before first computer came to >> existence. >> The capabilities of TxText and whether it will be capable to handle well >> complexities of full-fledged word processing features, at this point, >> without having an expert is nothing but just a speculation. >> > > I know enough about typesetting and producing technical documentation. > > And i have no idea what typesetting means. I can only guess , since it is compound from familiar 'type' and 'setting' words. And technical documentation.. now i start having a headache :) > Stephan > > > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

April 4, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] TxText model

by Thierry Goubier

2016-04-04 15:41 GMT+02:00 Stephan Eggermont <stephan(a)stack.nl>: > > I know enough about typesetting and producing technical documentation. Are you thinking of writing a text typesetting engine in Pharo? Thierry

April 4, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] TxText model

by Igor Stasenko

On 4 April 2016 at 16:32, Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > 2016-04-04 15:23 GMT+02:00 Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com>: > >> >> >>> Analogies don't work. Right :) I never used Pillar and have remote ideas >> about what it does or requires. From that perspective you appeal to wrong >> person. On your place i would be asking a guy who knows Pillar innards >> about it. >> Forgive my ignorance.. but i am not omniscient. >> > > False humility doesn't work there, Igor :) > But i don't know what Pillar is. Never used it. I'm not lying here. I seen people doing something with it time to time.. but never got my eyes on it. Or would you prefer that i would pretend that i know something and can continue discussion about things related to it? Waving hands, pointing to milestones, drawing diagrams? :) > > >> >> >>> Second is: Pharo (and all smalltalks) is the place where supposedly >>> impossible stuff can be developed, simply because it takes far less lines >>> than anywhere else. No guarantees, but, at the rate we're dropping projects >>> by the side of the road (and reinventing stuff multiple times over), we >>> have manpower to spare :) >>> >>> But that is orthogonal. It is possible to do anything on turing-complete >> environment. Taking shortcuts etc etc yadda yadda. Now do such statements >> alone can bring us anywhere closer to grand goals and grand projects? >> Nope. Only hard day to day work could bring us there.. Not talks about >> how cool we are. >> > > Hard day to day work, yes. But if you make it that uninteresting, yes, I'm > sure we will never get there :) > > Okay, let me elaborate what was the whole point behind TxText project. It was part of work we were doing to migrate from old Canvas & BitBlt Morphic rendering towards vector-based rendering using Athens. Basically in a nutshell TxText is a model and rendering engine for text rendering. Does it means it can serve as a base of full-fledged word processing software in a future? Sure thing. Why not? But does it means i should care or have interest in pursuing that direction? No. It is not on my radar and not among my interests. > Regards, > > Thierry > >> > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

April 4, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] TxText model

by Stephan Eggermont

On 04-04-16 14:49, Igor Stasenko wrote: > Oh, and aside all of that.. Making a full-fledged word processor is not > just a regular engineering task. You need an expert of publishing, expert > in fonts and typography. That's right from the beginning. > And i am not that expert in this domain(s). > So, next time, when we start talking about things like page layouts, > columns, margins, tabs, references and other stuff, first find an expert > who will be able to transform these terms into technical requirements. > If you think it so simple, it is not: because all those terms came from > paper-publishing domain, that existed even before first computer came to > existence. > The capabilities of TxText and whether it will be capable to handle well > complexities of full-fledged word processing features, at this point, > without having an expert is nothing but just a speculation. I know enough about typesetting and producing technical documentation. Stephan

April 4, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] TxText model

by Igor Stasenko

On 4 April 2016 at 16:31, Stephan Eggermont <stephan(a)stack.nl> wrote: > On 04-04-16 14:14, Igor Stasenko wrote: > >> If you have doubts about model, feel free to point it out and we can >> discuss details. >> > > As a text storage model it works pretty well. My major concerns are with > the line-breaking. > > Go on.. elaborate your concern. I will gladly answer. > Stephan > > > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

April 4, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] TxText model

by Thierry Goubier

2016-04-04 15:23 GMT+02:00 Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com>: > > >> Analogies don't work. Right :) I never used Pillar and have remote ideas > about what it does or requires. From that perspective you appeal to wrong > person. On your place i would be asking a guy who knows Pillar innards > about it. > Forgive my ignorance.. but i am not omniscient. > False humility doesn't work there, Igor :) > > >> Second is: Pharo (and all smalltalks) is the place where supposedly >> impossible stuff can be developed, simply because it takes far less lines >> than anywhere else. No guarantees, but, at the rate we're dropping projects >> by the side of the road (and reinventing stuff multiple times over), we >> have manpower to spare :) >> >> But that is orthogonal. It is possible to do anything on turing-complete > environment. Taking shortcuts etc etc yadda yadda. Now do such statements > alone can bring us anywhere closer to grand goals and grand projects? > Nope. Only hard day to day work could bring us there.. Not talks about how > cool we are. > Hard day to day work, yes. But if you make it that uninteresting, yes, I'm sure we will never get there :) Regards, Thierry >

April 4, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] TxText model

by Stephan Eggermont

On 04-04-16 14:14, Igor Stasenko wrote: > If you have doubts about model, feel free to point it out and we can > discuss details. As a text storage model it works pretty well. My major concerns are with the line-breaking. Stephan

April 4, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] TxText model

by Igor Stasenko

On 4 April 2016 at 16:14, philippe.back(a)highoctane.be < philippe.back(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Is there a doc explaining TxText somewhere? > > One of first things I wanted to do in Pharo (was 1.2 or 1.3 at the time) > was to have text with clickable links, pictures etc. > And not in a web page. > > So, I ended up in ParagraphEditor, Text attributes etc. > > I still want to make that work and I think that TxText is suitable from > what I saw. > > Any pointers? > Most of it in class comments i guess. I did not created any sort of other documentation for TxText. Apologies. And i don't know what is state of it since year i have left. Did it picked up by someone in community, or it stays at same stage where i left it? > Phil > > > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

April 4, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] TxText model

by Igor Stasenko

On 4 April 2016 at 16:14, Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > 2016-04-04 15:02 GMT+02:00 Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com>: > >> >> >> On 4 April 2016 at 15:44, Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> 2016-04-04 14:24 GMT+02:00 Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com>: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 4 April 2016 at 14:28, Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 2016-04-04 13:18 GMT+02:00 Stephan Eggermont <stephan(a)stack.nl>: >>>>> >>>>>> On 04-04-16 11:58, Igor Stasenko wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Apart from being 'cool to have', full-fledged word processing is not >>>>>>> a thing, that you dealing with on a daily basis in environment, like Pharo. >>>>>>> >>>>>> I'm sure that is the case for you. I wonder if that is the case for >>>>>> many Pharo users. >>>>>> AFAIK there are a lot of pillar users. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> If it is for Pillar, then you don't really need a full-fledged, paper >>>>> oriented layout engine. A web-like layout environment is probably enough, >>>>> and much less costly to build. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Now count, how much world-wide resources are dedicated to web-based and >>>> browser-based technology development and compare with our resource base. I >>>> think it is foolish to set an unrealistic goals. >>>> >>> >>> I think that if we didn't have unrealistic goals, we wouldn't be in that >>> community :) >>> >>> >>>> >>>>> For me the problem with the TxText model is that it blocks the >>>>>> possibility of doing >>>>>> that later, if and when there is enough development capacity to >>>>>> invest in this. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> There is enough technology in the Pharo universe to do it (or at least >>>>> something approaching). Sometimes, what you need is the ideas / the >>>>> rationale from a project to do it. And I do believe TxText has some of it, >>>>> even if you consider that TxText can't be extended to do it (and I'll >>>>> consider that you are right on this). >>>>> >>>>> Now, it's on nobody's roadmap, so it may take a while to emerge (if it >>>>> does at all). >>>>> >>>>> Last time, i installed LaTex package on my mac, it took maybe hour or >>>> so.. About 1Gb of files, tools, compilers, GUI, text editors.. >>>> Now think, how much years it would take to get remotely close to such >>>> level of development? And where are those people or money that would allow >>>> us to think this is viable path and we should throw everything into it to >>>> get there? >>>> >>> >>> Have you really looked into what is the core of the TeX algorithm? The >>> fact that an interactive version of it was done multiple times in history? >>> (Self / InterViews to cite the ones I know and have used) >>> >>> >>>> It is nice to dream time to time, but let us be realistic. >>>> >>> >>> I'd say that we have an environment where we can dream; where >>> reinventions can be done at low cost (or at lower cost than others), that >>> we can even afford to be wrong and throw a project away. Otherwise we >>> wouldn't have Athens / TxText / GT ... >>> >>> Mind you, I'm not asking you to do it :) I simply know that some of >>> TxText stuff is usable in that context. And that given the goal, shortcuts >>> are possible. >>> >>> >> But do you realising that we talking here about different scales of >> things? >> Let me drive an analogy: >> - you found an engineer that created a rocket engine in his garage. >> Engine is perfect, stable, works well etc etc etc.. >> And you asking him: >> - can we fly to the Moon tomorrow? >> >> Huh? >> >> Okay, if you find specialist, who can plan the mission, find the producer >> of solar panels, find specialist of long range communications, find >> specialists of long-range observations to determine the landing site, find >> god know how many other specialist and experts in various areas, only then >> you could possibly find and answer to your question. >> But asking such question to just a rocket engine specialist.. is just >> foolish. >> > > Don't do analogies, they don't work. > > First I said: for Pillar users, a word processing software is not that > useful. If you're using Pillar, you're not looking for a Microsoft Word > GUI, otherwise you'd be using Microsoft Word and not Pillar :) > > Analogies don't work. Right :) I never used Pillar and have remote ideas about what it does or requires. From that perspective you appeal to wrong person. On your place i would be asking a guy who knows Pillar innards about it. Forgive my ignorance.. but i am not omniscient. > Second is: Pharo (and all smalltalks) is the place where supposedly > impossible stuff can be developed, simply because it takes far less lines > than anywhere else. No guarantees, but, at the rate we're dropping projects > by the side of the road (and reinventing stuff multiple times over), we > have manpower to spare :) > > But that is orthogonal. It is possible to do anything on turing-complete environment. Taking shortcuts etc etc yadda yadda. Now do such statements alone can bring us anywhere closer to grand goals and grand projects? Nope. Only hard day to day work could bring us there.. Not talks about how cool we are. > Regards, > > Thierry > > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

April 4, 2016