December 2016 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] Redline: Talking Runtime basics ...

by Stefan Marr

Hi James: > On 30 Dec 2016, at 22:50, James Ladd <ladd.james(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > I even tried to find the old Potatoe Smalltalk which was a port of an old Smalltalk-80 image as it had a working ide and yet the smallest count of classes. Did you find it? https://news.squeak.org/2008/07/07/potato-version-of-jsqueak-from-hpi/ Best regards Stefan -- Stefan Marr Johannes Kepler UniversitÃ¤t Linz http://stefan-marr.de/research/

Dec. 31, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Redline: Talking Runtime basics ...

by philippe.back＠highoctane.be

Isn't there a typo in the first exptession? Also the list contains a lot of RB things. What purpose do they have in a bootstrap image? Same for RelationSlot and X11 something. Is there a scope and purpose statement for the bootstrap somewhere? Phil Le 31 dÃ©c. 2016 05:47, "Ben Coman" <btc(a)openinworld.com> a Ã©crit : > So for curiosity... > > $ $PHARO bootstrap.image eval "Object allSubclasses size" > 1677 > > $ $PHARO bootstrap.image eval "Object allSubclasses size" > 837 > > $ $PHARO bootstrap.image eval "Object class printHierarchy" > > /tmp/60334-bootstrap-hierarchy.txt > (see attached) > > cheers -ben > > > On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 4:42 AM, Pavel Krivanek > <pavel.krivanek(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > It is better to use smaller bootstrapped image without Monticello but it > is > > still quite big. > > > > https://ci.inria.fr/pharo/view/6.0-SysConf/job/Pharo-6. > 0-Step-01-00-Bootstrap/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/bootstrap.zip > > > > -- Pavel > > > > 2016-12-30 18:13 GMT+01:00 Ben Coman <btc(a)openinworld.com>: > >> > >> On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 7:51 AM, James Ladd <ladd.james(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > >> > Hi Pharo People, > >> > > >> > I have continued work on Redline Smalltalk and I'm wanting to discuss > >> > what > >> > the absolute minimum > >> > set of Classes and method should be included in the Redline Runtime. > >> > > >> > Would anyone here like to participate in that discussion? > >> > > >> > - James. > >> > Redline Smalltalk <http://redline.st> > >> > >> Nice to hear you are continuing. > >> I'm not very knowledgable on this, but I'll show you how to pull some > >> data from the work on producing a minimal image. > >> > >> 1. From PharoLauncher > Templates > Pharo 6.0(beta) > >> download/create an image of build "60334-minimal". > >> 2. Right-click on the image and choose [Copy pathname] > >> 3. In a shell, change to that directory, and execute the following > >> $ ../../VMs/spur/pharo 60334-minimal.image eval "Object > allSubclasses > >> size" > >> ==> 2801 > >> $ ../../VMs/spur/pharo 60334-minimal.image eval "Object class > >> allSubclasses size" > >> ==> 1399. > >> $ ../../VMs/spur/pharo 60334-minimal.image eval "Object class > >> printHierarchy" > /tmp/60334-minimal-class-hierarchy.txt > >> > >> I've attached the output of that last one. > >> > >> 4. For comparison, in a standard 60334 image, > >> Object allSubclasses size "==>11923". > >> Object class allSubclasses size "==>5959". > >> > >> Now in Pharo 6, the minimal image starts with a standard image and > >> strips these things out... > >> > >> https://ci.inria.fr/pharo/job/Pharo-6.0-Update-Step-3.2- > Minimal/ws/output.txt > >> > >> In Pharo 7, there will be a new build system that it will start with a > >> minimal image and build it up to a normal image. So this may provide > >> a better way to understand the order that things need to be > >> implemented. > >> > >> cheers -ben > > > > >

Dec. 31, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Redline: Talking Runtime basics ...

by Ben Coman

So for curiosity... $ $PHARO bootstrap.image eval "Object allSubclasses size" 1677 $ $PHARO bootstrap.image eval "Object allSubclasses size" 837 $ $PHARO bootstrap.image eval "Object class printHierarchy" > /tmp/60334-bootstrap-hierarchy.txt (see attached) cheers -ben On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 4:42 AM, Pavel Krivanek <pavel.krivanek(a)gmail.com> wrote: > It is better to use smaller bootstrapped image without Monticello but it is > still quite big. > > https://ci.inria.fr/pharo/view/6.0-SysConf/job/Pharo-6.0-Step-01-00-Bootstr… > > -- Pavel > > 2016-12-30 18:13 GMT+01:00 Ben Coman <btc(a)openinworld.com>: >> >> On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 7:51 AM, James Ladd <ladd.james(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> > Hi Pharo People, >> > >> > I have continued work on Redline Smalltalk and I'm wanting to discuss >> > what >> > the absolute minimum >> > set of Classes and method should be included in the Redline Runtime. >> > >> > Would anyone here like to participate in that discussion? >> > >> > - James. >> > Redline Smalltalk <http://redline.st> >> >> Nice to hear you are continuing. >> I'm not very knowledgable on this, but I'll show you how to pull some >> data from the work on producing a minimal image. >> >> 1. From PharoLauncher > Templates > Pharo 6.0(beta) >> download/create an image of build "60334-minimal". >> 2. Right-click on the image and choose [Copy pathname] >> 3. In a shell, change to that directory, and execute the following >> $ ../../VMs/spur/pharo 60334-minimal.image eval "Object allSubclasses >> size" >> ==> 2801 >> $ ../../VMs/spur/pharo 60334-minimal.image eval "Object class >> allSubclasses size" >> ==> 1399. >> $ ../../VMs/spur/pharo 60334-minimal.image eval "Object class >> printHierarchy" > /tmp/60334-minimal-class-hierarchy.txt >> >> I've attached the output of that last one. >> >> 4. For comparison, in a standard 60334 image, >> Object allSubclasses size "==>11923". >> Object class allSubclasses size "==>5959". >> >> Now in Pharo 6, the minimal image starts with a standard image and >> strips these things out... >> >> https://ci.inria.fr/pharo/job/Pharo-6.0-Update-Step-3.2-Minimal/ws/output.t… >> >> In Pharo 7, there will be a new build system that it will start with a >> minimal image and build it up to a normal image. So this may provide >> a better way to understand the order that things need to be >> implemented. >> >> cheers -ben > >

Dec. 31, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] [Ann] Calypso system browser

by Denis Kudriashov

2016-12-30 17:04 GMT+01:00 Ben Coman <btc(a)openinworld.com>: > > So you think existence of "Class variables" is also confusing because it > > looks like parent group for instance variables? > > Yes its confusing. I didn't even notice that "Class variables" could > be expanded to show > DependentsFields. I just assumed "Class variables" was the expanded > parent of > MultiByteBinaryOrTextStream, isBinary, converter. Hence my comment > that "class variables" item should be renamed "instance variables". > Now I see my comment was off target. I think the best fix is to have > a parent "instance variables" as well as "class variables", and on the > class side the parent should be "class instance variables." Such > labels educate newbies. > > > > >> > >> > >> Now I wonder if we can do without the Methods/Vars buttons by having > >> the following top level tree items. Also as a newbie before developing > >> the instinct to *know* which instance/class-side I was on, I got burnt > >> a few times following tutorials accidentally putting methods on the > >> wrong side. It would be interesting to try deprecating the > >> Inst-Side/Class-Side buttons, and have something like the following > >> items... > >> + instance-side methods > >> - accessing > >> - initialization > >> - extensions > >> - GT-InspectorExtensions > >> + class-side methods > >> - instance creation > >> - extensions > >> + variables > >> - instance variables > >> - class variables > >> - class instance variables > >> > > > > It could be good or not. > > Problem with this approach is same as why we use 4-column panes instead > of > > single tree menu for everything like other IDE does. > > We don't want to scroll to achieve some group element. > > Imaging that you browse some morph subclass which have a lot of > protocols. > > You are in some middle protocol and not see parent expanded group in > list. > > And now you want to look at class side or variables. Tree view will force > > you to scroll instead of simple press on switch button like it is now. > > okay. It would still be useful to at least have "Instance methods" parent > at the same level as "inherited methods" and "extensions" > * its disconcerting to have the protocols floating without a parent > * currently nowhere to select "All methods" - it seems you need to > deselect to see all methods. So with > * it could give another visual indication of which side you are on, by > changing to "class methods" when the <Class side> button is pushed. Personally I do not like it. I not understand why "accessing" under "inherited methods" is looks like child inside parent but "instance methods" under it will not confuse you too. Also in Calypso protocol is not exists anymore. There is just specific kind of method group which shows methods marked with given tag. Group "extensions" is another kind of method group which shows class extensions. In future we will have much more groups from old nice project "dynamic protocols" (there are github issues for them). So in general my idea that tagged method groups is not something special comparing to any other method groups. Not need for special parent for them. (In Pharo7 we will try to move to tags idea and remove protocols and class/method categories. New API for tags is already in Pharo 6 19341 <https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19341/New-class-and-method-tags-API>. User will be able to mark method or class with set of tags. Each tag is just symbol)

Dec. 30, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] [Ann] Calypso system browser

by Denis Kudriashov

> okay. I can see how that works. But I can't work out the display logic. > Selecting... Collections-Streams > ReadWriteStream > inherited methods > asBinaryOrTextStream(PositionableStream) is shown normal > asZLibReadStream(PositionableStream) is shown grey > Can you explain? It's easy. Class extension is shown with grey and #asZLibReadStream is from Compression package. Actually this logic is a bit different. If method *not* belongs to selected package (from package view) then it will be shown with grey. It is current logic of Nautilus.

Dec. 30, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Redline: Talking Runtime basics ...

by James Ladd

I have been looking at Amber :) Sent from my Commodore 64 > On 31 Dec 2016, at 6:26 am, philippe.back(a)highoctane.be <philippe.back(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Amber took a bunch of classes and this could be a nice starting point for fundamentals. > > Phil > > Le 30 dÃ©c. 2016 18:14, "Ben Coman" <btc(a)openinworld.com> a Ã©crit : >> On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 7:51 AM, James Ladd <ladd.james(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> > Hi Pharo People, >> > >> > I have continued work on Redline Smalltalk and I'm wanting to discuss what >> > the absolute minimum >> > set of Classes and method should be included in the Redline Runtime. >> > >> > Would anyone here like to participate in that discussion? >> > >> > - James. >> > Redline Smalltalk <http://redline.st> >> >> Nice to hear you are continuing. >> I'm not very knowledgable on this, but I'll show you how to pull some >> data from the work on producing a minimal image. >> >> 1. From PharoLauncher > Templates > Pharo 6.0(beta) >> download/create an image of build "60334-minimal". >> 2. Right-click on the image and choose [Copy pathname] >> 3. In a shell, change to that directory, and execute the following >> $ ../../VMs/spur/pharo 60334-minimal.image eval "Object allSubclasses size" >> ==> 2801 >> $ ../../VMs/spur/pharo 60334-minimal.image eval "Object class >> allSubclasses size" >> ==> 1399. >> $ ../../VMs/spur/pharo 60334-minimal.image eval "Object class >> printHierarchy" > /tmp/60334-minimal-class-hierarchy.txt >> >> I've attached the output of that last one. >> >> 4. For comparison, in a standard 60334 image, >> Object allSubclasses size "==>11923". >> Object class allSubclasses size "==>5959". >> >> Now in Pharo 6, the minimal image starts with a standard image and >> strips these things out... >> https://ci.inria.fr/pharo/job/Pharo-6.0-Update-Step-3.2-Minimal/ws/output.t… >> >> In Pharo 7, there will be a new build system that it will start with a >> minimal image and build it up to a normal image. So this may provide >> a better way to understand the order that things need to be >> implemented. >> >> cheers -ben

Dec. 30, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Redline: Talking Runtime basics ...

by James Ladd

This is very helpful thank you. Maybe I can rephrase things to help capture what I'm trying to do. In the Smalltalk-80 blue book there is a set of Kernel-Object/Kernel-Classes defined and I'm trying to find a full running implementation of these classes in a Smalltalk environment OR recreate Sent from my Commodore 64 > On 31 Dec 2016, at 4:13 am, Ben Coman <btc(a)openinworld.com> wrote: > >> On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 7:51 AM, James Ladd <ladd.james(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> Hi Pharo People, >> >> I have continued work on Redline Smalltalk and I'm wanting to discuss what >> the absolute minimum >> set of Classes and method should be included in the Redline Runtime. >> >> Would anyone here like to participate in that discussion? >> >> - James. >> Redline Smalltalk <http://redline.st> > > Nice to hear you are continuing. > I'm not very knowledgable on this, but I'll show you how to pull some > data from the work on producing a minimal image. > > 1. From PharoLauncher > Templates > Pharo 6.0(beta) > download/create an image of build "60334-minimal". > 2. Right-click on the image and choose [Copy pathname] > 3. In a shell, change to that directory, and execute the following > $ ../../VMs/spur/pharo 60334-minimal.image eval "Object allSubclasses size" > ==> 2801 > $ ../../VMs/spur/pharo 60334-minimal.image eval "Object class > allSubclasses size" > ==> 1399. > $ ../../VMs/spur/pharo 60334-minimal.image eval "Object class > printHierarchy" > /tmp/60334-minimal-class-hierarchy.txt > > I've attached the output of that last one. > > 4. For comparison, in a standard 60334 image, > Object allSubclasses size "==>11923". > Object class allSubclasses size "==>5959". > > Now in Pharo 6, the minimal image starts with a standard image and > strips these things out... > https://ci.inria.fr/pharo/job/Pharo-6.0-Update-Step-3.2-Minimal/ws/output.t… > > In Pharo 7, there will be a new build system that it will start with a > minimal image and build it up to a normal image. So this may provide > a better way to understand the order that things need to be > implemented. > > cheers -ben > <60334-minimal-class-hierarchy.txt>

Dec. 30, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Redline: Talking Runtime basics ...

by James Ladd

Thanks Tim. I even tried to find the old Potatoe Smalltalk which was a port of an old Smalltalk-80 image as it had a working ide and yet the smallest count of classes. Sent from my Commodore 64 > On 31 Dec 2016, at 1:01 am, Tim Mackinnon <tim(a)testit.works> wrote: > > I think we've gone off topic - James would simply like advice on what a minimal image could/should be composed of. > > That doesn't sound like a lot of work to help with that. > > I know there is a minimal image project in Pharo, but I'm not sure how minimal it got. I recall Marcus once telling me that the trick might be to get things to a place where you could bootstrap metacello and load in whatever you needed. I'm not sure if that is still the goal? But that would strike me as the core library he's interested in? > > Equally there was some work around having a scripting language using a command line Pharo for build type things. I don't recall its name - but again I'm sure it relies on a core set of classes that are used to bootstrap stuff as well. > > If someone can point to either of those two things that might help James enough. > > I know his actual project is hosted in GitHub and doesn't really distract anything going on here. It's on my todo list to check it out. > > Tim > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On 30 Dec 2016, at 13:49, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> The problem for an open source community as this one is time and money >> >> As Stef says "give me a million dollars and I will give you a Pharo million times better" >> >> that's the dream world >> >> in real world we all have very limited time that we focus on the sides of Pharo that interest us the most. Obviously we are here to help people use Pharo under any condition and requirement. As such I think and hope that I speak for everyone that we are more than happy to offer advice to help Pharo extend its influence on other platforms. >> >> To actually contribute code will need Pharo developers that are experienced Java developers too (I am not). >> >> Problem is that neither Java nor Javascript have good reputation and as such people who can avoid them do so. >> >> For example even though we can justify the freeze of a project like Redline Smalltalk because of the tiny size of the Smalltalk community but take something huge in popularity like Python, the official release of Python is CPython with an estimate of over 2 million developers world wide , Jython which is the port of Python in JVM has actually smaller community than we have at least last time I checked few gears ago. Just think about it for a minute. >> >> Its super hard to convince a python developer to switch to jython and so is for a java developer. >> >> This applies for all languages, I think the reasoning is that each language is not just a tool but an entire culture and people pick them for specific reasons, >> >> Javascript situation is more or less the same, python has no actively supported javascript equivelant. >> >> Again I am using Python as an example, different languages same or similar scenario. >> >> This is why I suggested to bring Redline closer to Pharo rather than porting some Pharo classes to JVM. >> >> Amber failed to gain traction because it did the opposite of what I am suggesting , tried to convince people to give up Pharo and move completely to Amber (for the JS part) which is why it implemented its own IDE etc. Obviously it did not work and Amber is barely alive. >> >> PharoJS seem on the right path , at least for me, so maybe there is still hope. >> >> In any case its not hard to use libraries from other programming language in Pharo with some form of IPC, I do this for using python libraries from Pharo and I making something similar for C++. Took me only a few hundred lines of code to do it for both and works pretty well. IPC can work with pretty much any language and as many languages at the same time as you want or your processor can handle. >> >> There are a ton of projects out there that use multiple languages that work together as one unit. Problem is that you can approach this through a billion diffirent angles and it will depend on the specific problem you want to solve. I build my own IPC tools to fit my specific needs which are Unreal (game engine) and Blender (3d application). >> >> There was a cool idea from a presentation a Smalltalker once gave about moving a DigiTalk implementation to JVM whithout changing a thing inside the image. Instead they ported the bytecode from smalltalk to JVM and used JNI for the C libraries. Sound too good to be true, they supposed to release it open source ages ago but that turned out to be another vaporware. >> >> I also agree that Cuis is a very good start to find the most essential libraries for Pharo. There is also a minimal image for pharo on the dowload section of the website which should give a good idea. But as it is to be expected its impossible to predict what is essential for each Pharo user and there lies the challenge. >> >>> On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 1:59 PM Tim Mackinnon <tim(a)testit.works> wrote: >>> Actually I think James is on to something and we should try and support him. >>> >>> Having recently played with AWS Lambda and written a few Alexa services in JS, I was intrigued how you would approach such end points in Smalltalk and whether it would be a productive language and environment to run them in. (Btw - the lambda environment is very interesting - scalable infrastructure that is peanuts to run). >>> >>> To try this, the basic building blocks provided by these services are either JS or Java - so for Smalltalkers that sounds like Smalltalk running on Amber or Redline. >>> >>> I find Amber and all the JS infrastructure very daunting - gulp, amd etc. And for Lambda you also get caught into this world of package management and loading up JS dependencies. >>> >>> I'm intrigued how a jvm Smalltalk might approach this problem (as well as many others I'm sure). We seem to achieve a lot with quite a small image of building blocks. >>> >>> As pharo is a research community, can we help James explore this a bit more? Certainly there is a drive to a minimal Smalltalk image - so that work can immediately feed into this. >>> >>> To add to the research'y side context - these service infrastructures seem to feel a lot like callable blocks of code. We are used to thinking in this way in our image - we use blocks everywhere. How might they run in a scaleable environment vs straight function call languages? >>> >>> Tim >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On 30 Dec 2016, at 09:31, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> I think what most people would want is to use Java libraries from inside Pharo. You seem to want to bring Pharo classes to Redline Runtime . >>>> >>>> I have the opposite idea of bringing Redline Runtime inside Pharo and give us Pharo developers an easy way to use Java libraries and mix pharo with java code. I think also Pharo would serve great as an IDE for Redline Smalltalk. >>>> >>>> I already have JNIPort thats does that but none will complain to have another tool around, I am sure it will come very handy. >>>> >>>> On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 2:08 AM James Ladd <ladd.james(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>> Hi Pharo People, >>>> >>>> I have continued work on Redline Smalltalk and I'm wanting to discuss what >>>> the absolute minimum >>>> set of Classes and method should be included in the Redline Runtime. >>>> >>>> Would anyone here like to participate in that discussion? >>>> >>>> - James. >>>> Redline Smalltalk <http://redline.st> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Redline-Talking-Runtime-basics-tp4928375.html >>>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >>>>

Dec. 30, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Redline: Talking Runtime basics ...

by James Ladd

Dimitris, To contribute you do not need to code Java at all, never, period. Sent from my Commodore 64 > On 30 Dec 2016, at 11:49 pm, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > The problem for an open source community as this one is time and money > > As Stef says "give me a million dollars and I will give you a Pharo million times better" > > that's the dream world > > in real world we all have very limited time that we focus on the sides of Pharo that interest us the most. Obviously we are here to help people use Pharo under any condition and requirement. As such I think and hope that I speak for everyone that we are more than happy to offer advice to help Pharo extend its influence on other platforms. > > To actually contribute code will need Pharo developers that are experienced Java developers too (I am not). > > Problem is that neither Java nor Javascript have good reputation and as such people who can avoid them do so. > > For example even though we can justify the freeze of a project like Redline Smalltalk because of the tiny size of the Smalltalk community but take something huge in popularity like Python, the official release of Python is CPython with an estimate of over 2 million developers world wide , Jython which is the port of Python in JVM has actually smaller community than we have at least last time I checked few gears ago. Just think about it for a minute. > > Its super hard to convince a python developer to switch to jython and so is for a java developer. > > This applies for all languages, I think the reasoning is that each language is not just a tool but an entire culture and people pick them for specific reasons, > > Javascript situation is more or less the same, python has no actively supported javascript equivelant. > > Again I am using Python as an example, different languages same or similar scenario. > > This is why I suggested to bring Redline closer to Pharo rather than porting some Pharo classes to JVM. > > Amber failed to gain traction because it did the opposite of what I am suggesting , tried to convince people to give up Pharo and move completely to Amber (for the JS part) which is why it implemented its own IDE etc. Obviously it did not work and Amber is barely alive. > > PharoJS seem on the right path , at least for me, so maybe there is still hope. > > In any case its not hard to use libraries from other programming language in Pharo with some form of IPC, I do this for using python libraries from Pharo and I making something similar for C++. Took me only a few hundred lines of code to do it for both and works pretty well. IPC can work with pretty much any language and as many languages at the same time as you want or your processor can handle. > > There are a ton of projects out there that use multiple languages that work together as one unit. Problem is that you can approach this through a billion diffirent angles and it will depend on the specific problem you want to solve. I build my own IPC tools to fit my specific needs which are Unreal (game engine) and Blender (3d application). > > There was a cool idea from a presentation a Smalltalker once gave about moving a DigiTalk implementation to JVM whithout changing a thing inside the image. Instead they ported the bytecode from smalltalk to JVM and used JNI for the C libraries. Sound too good to be true, they supposed to release it open source ages ago but that turned out to be another vaporware. > > I also agree that Cuis is a very good start to find the most essential libraries for Pharo. There is also a minimal image for pharo on the dowload section of the website which should give a good idea. But as it is to be expected its impossible to predict what is essential for each Pharo user and there lies the challenge. > >> On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 1:59 PM Tim Mackinnon <tim(a)testit.works> wrote: >> Actually I think James is on to something and we should try and support him. >> >> Having recently played with AWS Lambda and written a few Alexa services in JS, I was intrigued how you would approach such end points in Smalltalk and whether it would be a productive language and environment to run them in. (Btw - the lambda environment is very interesting - scalable infrastructure that is peanuts to run). >> >> To try this, the basic building blocks provided by these services are either JS or Java - so for Smalltalkers that sounds like Smalltalk running on Amber or Redline. >> >> I find Amber and all the JS infrastructure very daunting - gulp, amd etc. And for Lambda you also get caught into this world of package management and loading up JS dependencies. >> >> I'm intrigued how a jvm Smalltalk might approach this problem (as well as many others I'm sure). We seem to achieve a lot with quite a small image of building blocks. >> >> As pharo is a research community, can we help James explore this a bit more? Certainly there is a drive to a minimal Smalltalk image - so that work can immediately feed into this. >> >> To add to the research'y side context - these service infrastructures seem to feel a lot like callable blocks of code. We are used to thinking in this way in our image - we use blocks everywhere. How might they run in a scaleable environment vs straight function call languages? >> >> Tim >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On 30 Dec 2016, at 09:31, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> I think what most people would want is to use Java libraries from inside Pharo. You seem to want to bring Pharo classes to Redline Runtime . >>> >>> I have the opposite idea of bringing Redline Runtime inside Pharo and give us Pharo developers an easy way to use Java libraries and mix pharo with java code. I think also Pharo would serve great as an IDE for Redline Smalltalk. >>> >>> I already have JNIPort thats does that but none will complain to have another tool around, I am sure it will come very handy. >>> >>> On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 2:08 AM James Ladd <ladd.james(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> Hi Pharo People, >>> >>> I have continued work on Redline Smalltalk and I'm wanting to discuss what >>> the absolute minimum >>> set of Classes and method should be included in the Redline Runtime. >>> >>> Would anyone here like to participate in that discussion? >>> >>> - James. >>> Redline Smalltalk <http://redline.st> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Redline-Talking-Runtime-basics-tp4928375.html >>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >>>

Dec. 30, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Redline: Talking Runtime basics ...

by James Ladd

Hi Tim, Thank you for the support. With Redline you will be able to deploy Smalltalk to AWS Lambda Smalltalk source can be packaged into a STar (Smalltalk archive) which is actually a Java jar and deployed. See jaws-maven-plugin for an approach to getting Java code deployed easily as a Lambda Sent from my Commodore 64 > On 30 Dec 2016, at 10:25 pm, Tim Mackinnon <tim(a)testit.works> wrote: > > Actually I think James is on to something and we should try and support him. > > Having recently played with AWS Lambda and written a few Alexa services in JS, I was intrigued how you would approach such end points in Smalltalk and whether it would be a productive language and environment to run them in. (Btw - the lambda environment is very interesting - scalable infrastructure that is peanuts to run). > > To try this, the basic building blocks provided by these services are either JS or Java - so for Smalltalkers that sounds like Smalltalk running on Amber or Redline. > > I find Amber and all the JS infrastructure very daunting - gulp, amd etc. And for Lambda you also get caught into this world of package management and loading up JS dependencies. > > I'm intrigued how a jvm Smalltalk might approach this problem (as well as many others I'm sure). We seem to achieve a lot with quite a small image of building blocks. > > As pharo is a research community, can we help James explore this a bit more? Certainly there is a drive to a minimal Smalltalk image - so that work can immediately feed into this. > > To add to the research'y side context - these service infrastructures seem to feel a lot like callable blocks of code. We are used to thinking in this way in our image - we use blocks everywhere. How might they run in a scaleable environment vs straight function call languages? > > Tim > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On 30 Dec 2016, at 09:31, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> I think what most people would want is to use Java libraries from inside Pharo. You seem to want to bring Pharo classes to Redline Runtime . >> >> I have the opposite idea of bringing Redline Runtime inside Pharo and give us Pharo developers an easy way to use Java libraries and mix pharo with java code. I think also Pharo would serve great as an IDE for Redline Smalltalk. >> >> I already have JNIPort thats does that but none will complain to have another tool around, I am sure it will come very handy. >> >>> On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 2:08 AM James Ladd <ladd.james(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> Hi Pharo People, >>> >>> I have continued work on Redline Smalltalk and I'm wanting to discuss what >>> the absolute minimum >>> set of Classes and method should be included in the Redline Runtime. >>> >>> Would anyone here like to participate in that discussion? >>> >>> - James. >>> Redline Smalltalk <http://redline.st> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Redline-Talking-Runtime-basics-tp4928375.html >>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >>>

Dec. 30, 2016