December 2016 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] Berlin 2016-12-19

by phil＠highoctane.be

This is perfectly relevant to Pharo, given we have Grafoscopio http://mutabit.com/grafoscopio/index.en.html and have the tooling necessary to produce the maps with a toolchain owned and made by the people. That we should move this to Pharo-Users, yep. At the bottom of the Grafoscopio page: lots of cases Phil On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 11:36 AM, Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name> wrote: > I don't think this list is the proper place for discussing politics. So > can we please not do it? > > thanks, > > Norbert > > Am 22.12.2016 um 11:20 schrieb Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com>: > > I completely agree with you Phil, the real tragedy is this Berlin tragedy > will be the excuse to funnel billion of euros into a war that will bring > zero results , billions that could be invested not only to save 30 or even > a thousand lives but millions of lives. > > To talk about regression is to not be aware of how extremely lucky and > privileged we are to live in a time that experts call "the long peace" . > Never in the recorded human history there were so few wars worldwide and as > much poverty and it continuously gets better even in this time of global > economic crisis. > > As a matter of fact the biggest problems we face are the result of this > long peace and prosperity . Top ones being over population and climate > change. > > In both cases of positives and negative we experience the profound effects > of exponential growth. This crazy curve of constant growth that start small > and much later increases in insane rates which has massive positive and > negative effects. Its a crazy ride and will only get massively more crazy > soon enough, especially now with the coming of the AI revolution. > > I wonder the role Pharo will play in all this :) > > On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 1:56 AM phil(a)highoctane.be <phil(a)highoctane.be> > wrote: > >> Regression? Consider that 1 human on 5 is under the poverty line vs 1 on >> 2 not so many years ago and that a large percentage of the human population >> has been schooled in elementary matters (again, not the case not so far in >> the past). >> >> That is a massive improvement! >> >> Despite terrorist casualties, which compared to flu or car crashes, or >> even toddlers shooting relatives with guns is two orders of magnitude less, >> we live in the safest environment we have ever had. Not a regression at all. >> >> http://www.fayard.fr/histoire-du-terrorisme-9782213687308 has a pretty >> useful background on their logic. Terrorism is the weapon of the weak in >> terms of fighting force, otherwise they would engage in a full on war to >> conquer the territory. >> >> The psychological impact is just out of proportions vs the number of >> casualties. >> >> I got rammed into by a truck last week and could have been killed. That's >> just a mundane occurence that statistically kills more people than any >> terrorist attack would. >> >> Ref: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accident_de_la_route_en_France "Et >> depuis 1945, les chiffres sont aussi Ã©difiants, car il faut parler d'au >> moins 500 000 morts, soit l'Ã©quivalent d'un grand conflit majeur, ou >> l'Ã©quivalent des pertes humaines subies en France lors de la Seconde Guerre >> mondiale." >> >> Not to mention domestic accidents: "Chaque annÃ©e en France, prÃ¨s de >> 20 000 personnes dÃ©cÃ¨dent dans un accident domestique, c'est trois fois >> plus que sur la route."" Plus de la moitiÃ© des accidents de la vie >> courante concerne des enfants de 0 Ã 16 ans. Et malgrÃ© les progrÃ¨s >> accomplis depuis les annÃ©es 80, c'est pour eux une des principales causes >> de dÃ©cÃ¨s prÃ©maturÃ©s. Produits mÃ©nagers ou mÃ©dicaments accessibles, chaise >> haute non sanglÃ©e, table Ã langer instable. en quelques minutes, la vie >> peut tourner au drame. Il faut savoir que chez les tout-petits, c'est Ã >> l'intÃ©rieur de la maison que se situe le danger" >> >> Best course of action is to keep on trucking and be a productive element >> of society. No matter what. YOLO after all. >> >> Phil >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 9:44 PM, stepharong <stepharong(a)free.fr> wrote: >> >> Indeed, immensely sad. Humanity is under regression. >> When you see that in Mali they destroyed the oldest world library. >> What sadden me the most is that in case of attacks in France, these >> attacks were made by brainwashed french >> citezen against french citizen contrary to what ugly "politician" would >> like that we think. >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Berlin_attack >> >> It is really sad that these things happen, that so many innocent people >> are killed and hurt. It makes me even more sad that I seem to be getting >> used to this, that should not be the case, at all. >> >> Sven >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ >> >> >> >

Dec. 22, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Berlin 2016-12-19

by Dimitris Chloupis

On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 1:21 PM Peter Uhnak <i.uhnak(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 10:20:36AM +0000, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: > > To talk about regression is to not be aware of how extremely lucky and > > privileged we are to live in a time that experts call "the long peace" . > > Never in the recorded human history there were so few wars worldwide and > as > > much poverty and it continuously gets better even in this time of global > > economic crisis. > > Global Peace Index assesment for 2016 just came out, I recommend going > through it. > > > http://static.visionofhumanity.org/sites/default/files/GPI%202016%20Report_… > > > https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/800/0*y_hOa2btFnCSq9YO.jpg

Dec. 22, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Berlin 2016-12-19

by Peter Uhnak

On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 10:48:28AM +0000, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: > I don't see anywhere me mentioning my support for a political party or > ideology or even mention politics at all. > > You must have a very abstract definition of "politics". Rather you have a very narrow definition of politics. > > Funny thing is that you could not quote the most inappropriate case because > I am completely against any form of politics including anarchism. You cannot not have politics. > > I don't think this list is the proper place for discussing politics. So > > can we please not do it? Sorry. Peter

Dec. 22, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Berlin 2016-12-19

by Peter Uhnak

On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 10:20:36AM +0000, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: > To talk about regression is to not be aware of how extremely lucky and > privileged we are to live in a time that experts call "the long peace" . > Never in the recorded human history there were so few wars worldwide and as > much poverty and it continuously gets better even in this time of global > economic crisis. Global Peace Index assesment for 2016 just came out, I recommend going through it. http://static.visionofhumanity.org/sites/default/files/GPI%202016%20Report_… In other news: "Terrorism is also at an all-time high, battle deaths from conflict are at a 25 year high, and the number of refugees and displaced people are at a level not seen in sixty years" Nevertheless, Europe still remains the most peaceful region (certainly makes it easier to have biased perception... I now also live in the 6th most peaceful country :)) > I wonder the role Pharo will play in all this :) Maybe next year instead of 100 dead pages, the GPI can be released as interactive Pharo image that would aid policymakers (and everyone) with understanding the data, relations between it etc. :) (Bret Victor anyone?) > > On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 1:56 AM phil(a)highoctane.be <phil(a)highoctane.be> > wrote: > > > Regression? Consider that 1 human on 5 is under the poverty line vs 1 on 2 > > not so many years ago and that a large percentage of the human population > > has been schooled in elementary matters (again, not the case not so far in > > the past). As linked above, Europe certainly does regress in some aspects. For example the attacks (albeit rare) already created enough fear that people are willingly giving up their rights and liberties in exchange of the promise of security (e.g. UK's IP bill that treats every citizen as assumed criminal, increased data collection and surveillance in one state after another, etc.; (ECJ ruled the UK's bill unlawful & not democratic, but unlikely it will have any impact). > > otherwise they would engage in a full on war to conquer the territory. ... there is a full on war in their homeland > > > > The psychological impact is just out of proportions vs the number of > > casualties. precisely, so you don't need to do that daily or weekly (like in middle east / northern Africa) > > I got rammed into by a truck last week and could have been killed. That's > > just a mundane occurence that statistically kills more people than any > > terrorist attack would. There is a difference between violent death and willingly engaging with risky situations. > > Best course of action is to keep on trucking I think the moral of your story should be: we should finally stop trucking and give that job to machines. :) Peter

Dec. 22, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Berlin 2016-12-19

by Mark Bestley

Well it is definitely not about Pharo and it is politics whic is (from Greek: ÏÎ¿Î»Î¹ÏÎ¹ÎºÏÏ politikos, definition "of, for, or relating to citizens") Mark On 22/12/2016 10:48, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: > I don't see anywhere me mentioning my support for a political party or > ideology or even mention politics at all. > > You must have a very abstract definition of "politics". > > Funny thing is that you could not quote the most inappropriate case > because I am completely against any form of politics including anarchism. > > So please don't make assumptions about people who you know very little > about. > > Accuse me that my reply is not Pharo development based , guilty as > charged, but then so is not the topic of the discussion. > On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 at 12:37, Norbert Hartl > <norbert(a)hartl.name > <mailto:norbert@hartl.name>> wrote: > > I don't think this list is the proper place for discussing politics. > So can we please not do it? > > thanks, > > Norbert > >> Am 22.12.2016 um 11:20 schrieb Dimitris Chloupis >> <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com >> <mailto:kilon.alios@gmail.com>>: >> >> I completely agree with you Phil, the real tragedy is this Berlin >> tragedy will be the excuse to funnel billion of euros into a war >> that will bring zero results , billions that could be invested not >> only to save 30 or even a thousand lives but millions of lives. >> >> To talk about regression is to not be aware of how extremely lucky >> and privileged we are to live in a time that experts call "the >> long peace" . Never in the recorded human history there were so >> few wars worldwide and as much poverty and it continuously gets >> better even in this time of global economic crisis. >> >> As a matter of fact the biggest problems we face are the result of >> this long peace and prosperity . Top ones being over population >> and climate change. >> >> In both cases of positives and negative we experience the profound >> effects of exponential growth. This crazy curve of constant growth >> that start small and much later increases in insane rates which >> has massive positive and negative effects. Its a crazy ride and >> will only get massively more crazy soon enough, especially now >> with the coming of the AI revolution. >> >> I wonder the role Pharo will play in all this :) >> >> On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 1:56 AM >> phil(a)highoctane.be >> <mailto:phil@highoctane.be> >> <phil(a)highoctane.be >> <mailto:phil@highoctane.be>> wrote: >> >> Regression? Consider that 1 human on 5 is under the poverty >> line vs 1 on 2 not so many years ago and that a large >> percentage of the human population has been schooled in >> elementary matters (again, not the case not so far in the past). >> >> That is a massive improvement! >> >> Despite terrorist casualties, which compared to flu or car >> crashes, or even toddlers shooting relatives with guns is two >> orders of magnitude less, we live in the safest environment we >> have ever had. Not a regression at all. >> >> http://www.fayard.fr/histoire-du-terrorisme-9782213687308 has >> a pretty useful background on their logic. Terrorism is the >> weapon of the weak in terms of fighting force, otherwise they >> would engage in a full on war to conquer the territory. >> >> The psychological impact is just out of proportions vs the >> number of casualties. >> >> I got rammed into by a truck last week and could have been >> killed. That's just a mundane occurence that statistically >> kills more people than any terrorist attack would. >> >> Ref: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accident_de_la_route_en_France >> "Et depuis 1945, les chiffres sont aussi Ã©difiants, car il >> faut parler d'au moins 500 000 morts, soit l'Ã©quivalent d'un >> grand conflit majeur, ou l'Ã©quivalent des pertes humaines >> subies en France lors de la Seconde Guerre mondiale." >> >> Not to mention domestic accidents: "Chaque annÃ©e en France, >> prÃ¨s de 20 000 personnes dÃ©cÃ¨dent dans un accident domestique, >> c'est trois fois plus que sur la route."" Plus de la moitiÃ© >> des accidents de la vie courante concerne des enfants de 0 Ã >> 16 ans. Et malgrÃ© les progrÃ¨s accomplis depuis les annÃ©es 80, >> c'est pour eux une des principales causes de dÃ©cÃ¨s prÃ©maturÃ©s. >> Produits mÃ©nagers ou mÃ©dicaments accessibles, chaise haute non >> sanglÃ©e, table Ã langer instable. en quelques minutes, la vie >> peut tourner au drame. Il faut savoir que chez les >> tout-petits, c'est Ã l'intÃ©rieur de la maison que se situe le >> danger" >> >> Best course of action is to keep on trucking and be a >> productive element of society. No matter what. YOLO after all. >> >> Phil >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 9:44 PM, stepharong >> <stepharong(a)free.fr >> <mailto:stepharong@free.fr>> wrote: >> >> Indeed, immensely sad. Humanity is under regression. >> When you see that in Mali they destroyed the oldest world >> library. >> What sadden me the most is that in case of attacks in >> France, these attacks were made by brainwashed french >> citezen against french citizen contrary to what ugly >> "politician" would like that we think. >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Berlin_attack >> >> It is really sad that these things happen, that so >> many innocent people are killed and hurt. It makes me >> even more sad that I seem to be getting used to this, >> that should not be the case, at all. >> >> Sven >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ >> >> > -- Mark

Dec. 22, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Berlin 2016-12-19

by Dimitris Chloupis

I don't see anywhere me mentioning my support for a political party or ideology or even mention politics at all. You must have a very abstract definition of "politics". Funny thing is that you could not quote the most inappropriate case because I am completely against any form of politics including anarchism. So please don't make assumptions about people who you know very little about. Accuse me that my reply is not Pharo development based , guilty as charged, but then so is not the topic of the discussion. On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 at 12:37, Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name> wrote: > I don't think this list is the proper place for discussing politics. So > can we please not do it? > > thanks, > > Norbert > > Am 22.12.2016 um 11:20 schrieb Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com>: > > I completely agree with you Phil, the real tragedy is this Berlin tragedy > will be the excuse to funnel billion of euros into a war that will bring > zero results , billions that could be invested not only to save 30 or even > a thousand lives but millions of lives. > > To talk about regression is to not be aware of how extremely lucky and > privileged we are to live in a time that experts call "the long peace" . > Never in the recorded human history there were so few wars worldwide and as > much poverty and it continuously gets better even in this time of global > economic crisis. > > As a matter of fact the biggest problems we face are the result of this > long peace and prosperity . Top ones being over population and climate > change. > > In both cases of positives and negative we experience the profound effects > of exponential growth. This crazy curve of constant growth that start small > and much later increases in insane rates which has massive positive and > negative effects. Its a crazy ride and will only get massively more crazy > soon enough, especially now with the coming of the AI revolution. > > I wonder the role Pharo will play in all this :) > > On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 1:56 AM phil(a)highoctane.be <phil(a)highoctane.be> > wrote: > > Regression? Consider that 1 human on 5 is under the poverty line vs 1 on 2 > not so many years ago and that a large percentage of the human population > has been schooled in elementary matters (again, not the case not so far in > the past). > > That is a massive improvement! > > Despite terrorist casualties, which compared to flu or car crashes, or > even toddlers shooting relatives with guns is two orders of magnitude less, > we live in the safest environment we have ever had. Not a regression at all. > > http://www.fayard.fr/histoire-du-terrorisme-9782213687308 has a pretty > useful background on their logic. Terrorism is the weapon of the weak in > terms of fighting force, otherwise they would engage in a full on war to > conquer the territory. > > The psychological impact is just out of proportions vs the number of > casualties. > > I got rammed into by a truck last week and could have been killed. That's > just a mundane occurence that statistically kills more people than any > terrorist attack would. > > Ref: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accident_de_la_route_en_France "Et > depuis 1945, les chiffres sont aussi Ã©difiants, car il faut parler d'au > moins 500 000 morts, soit l'Ã©quivalent d'un grand conflit majeur, ou > l'Ã©quivalent des pertes humaines subies en France lors de la Seconde Guerre > mondiale." > > Not to mention domestic accidents: "Chaque annÃ©e en France, prÃ¨s de > 20 000 personnes dÃ©cÃ¨dent dans un accident domestique, c'est trois fois > plus que sur la route."" Plus de la moitiÃ© des accidents de la vie > courante concerne des enfants de 0 Ã 16 ans. Et malgrÃ© les progrÃ¨s > accomplis depuis les annÃ©es 80, c'est pour eux une des principales causes > de dÃ©cÃ¨s prÃ©maturÃ©s. Produits mÃ©nagers ou mÃ©dicaments accessibles, chaise > haute non sanglÃ©e, table Ã langer instable. en quelques minutes, la vie > peut tourner au drame. Il faut savoir que chez les tout-petits, c'est Ã > l'intÃ©rieur de la maison que se situe le danger" > > Best course of action is to keep on trucking and be a productive element > of society. No matter what. YOLO after all. > > Phil > > > > > > > On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 9:44 PM, stepharong <stepharong(a)free.fr> wrote: > > Indeed, immensely sad. Humanity is under regression. > When you see that in Mali they destroyed the oldest world library. > What sadden me the most is that in case of attacks in France, these > attacks were made by brainwashed french > citezen against french citizen contrary to what ugly "politician" would > like that we think. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Berlin_attack > > It is really sad that these things happen, that so many innocent people > are killed and hurt. It makes me even more sad that I seem to be getting > used to this, that should not be the case, at all. > > Sven > > > > > -- > Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ > > > >

Dec. 22, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Berlin 2016-12-19

by Norbert Hartl

I don't think this list is the proper place for discussing politics. So can we please not do it? thanks, Norbert > Am 22.12.2016 um 11:20 schrieb Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com>: > > I completely agree with you Phil, the real tragedy is this Berlin tragedy will be the excuse to funnel billion of euros into a war that will bring zero results , billions that could be invested not only to save 30 or even a thousand lives but millions of lives. > > To talk about regression is to not be aware of how extremely lucky and privileged we are to live in a time that experts call "the long peace" . Never in the recorded human history there were so few wars worldwide and as much poverty and it continuously gets better even in this time of global economic crisis. > > As a matter of fact the biggest problems we face are the result of this long peace and prosperity . Top ones being over population and climate change. > > In both cases of positives and negative we experience the profound effects of exponential growth. This crazy curve of constant growth that start small and much later increases in insane rates which has massive positive and negative effects. Its a crazy ride and will only get massively more crazy soon enough, especially now with the coming of the AI revolution. > > I wonder the role Pharo will play in all this :) > > On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 1:56 AM phil(a)highoctane.be <mailto:phil@highoctane.be> <phil(a)highoctane.be <mailto:phil@highoctane.be>> wrote: > Regression? Consider that 1 human on 5 is under the poverty line vs 1 on 2 not so many years ago and that a large percentage of the human population has been schooled in elementary matters (again, not the case not so far in the past). > > That is a massive improvement! > > Despite terrorist casualties, which compared to flu or car crashes, or even toddlers shooting relatives with guns is two orders of magnitude less, we live in the safest environment we have ever had. Not a regression at all. > > http://www.fayard.fr/histoire-du-terrorisme-9782213687308 <http://www.fayard.fr/histoire-du-terrorisme-9782213687308> has a pretty useful background on their logic. Terrorism is the weapon of the weak in terms of fighting force, otherwise they would engage in a full on war to conquer the territory. > > The psychological impact is just out of proportions vs the number of casualties. > > I got rammed into by a truck last week and could have been killed. That's just a mundane occurence that statistically kills more people than any terrorist attack would. > > Ref: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accident_de_la_route_en_France <https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accident_de_la_route_en_France> "Et depuis 1945, les chiffres sont aussi Ã©difiants, car il faut parler d'au moins 500 000 morts, soit l'Ã©quivalent d'un grand conflit majeur, ou l'Ã©quivalent des pertes humaines subies en France lors de la Seconde Guerre mondiale." > > Not to mention domestic accidents: "Chaque annÃ©e en France, prÃ¨s de 20 000 personnes dÃ©cÃ¨dent dans un accident domestique, c'est trois fois plus que sur la route."" Plus de la moitiÃ© des accidents de la vie courante concerne des enfants de 0 Ã 16 ans. Et malgrÃ© les progrÃ¨s accomplis depuis les annÃ©es 80, c'est pour eux une des principales causes de dÃ©cÃ¨s prÃ©maturÃ©s. Produits mÃ©nagers ou mÃ©dicaments accessibles, chaise haute non sanglÃ©e, table Ã langer instable. en quelques minutes, la vie peut tourner au drame. Il faut savoir que chez les tout-petits, c'est Ã l'intÃ©rieur de la maison que se situe le danger" > > Best course of action is to keep on trucking and be a productive element of society. No matter what. YOLO after all. > > Phil > > > > > > > On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 9:44 PM, stepharong <stepharong(a)free.fr <mailto:stepharong@free.fr>> wrote: > Indeed, immensely sad. Humanity is under regression. > When you see that in Mali they destroyed the oldest world library. > What sadden me the most is that in case of attacks in France, these attacks were made by brainwashed french > citezen against french citizen contrary to what ugly "politician" would like that we think. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Berlin_attack <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Berlin_attack> > > It is really sad that these things happen, that so many innocent people are killed and hurt. It makes me even more sad that I seem to be getting used to this, that should not be the case, at all. > > Sven > > > > > -- > Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ <http://www.opera.com/mail/> > >

Dec. 22, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Berlin 2016-12-19

by Dimitris Chloupis

I completely agree with you Phil, the real tragedy is this Berlin tragedy will be the excuse to funnel billion of euros into a war that will bring zero results , billions that could be invested not only to save 30 or even a thousand lives but millions of lives. To talk about regression is to not be aware of how extremely lucky and privileged we are to live in a time that experts call "the long peace" . Never in the recorded human history there were so few wars worldwide and as much poverty and it continuously gets better even in this time of global economic crisis. As a matter of fact the biggest problems we face are the result of this long peace and prosperity . Top ones being over population and climate change. In both cases of positives and negative we experience the profound effects of exponential growth. This crazy curve of constant growth that start small and much later increases in insane rates which has massive positive and negative effects. Its a crazy ride and will only get massively more crazy soon enough, especially now with the coming of the AI revolution. I wonder the role Pharo will play in all this :) On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 1:56 AM phil(a)highoctane.be <phil(a)highoctane.be> wrote: > Regression? Consider that 1 human on 5 is under the poverty line vs 1 on 2 > not so many years ago and that a large percentage of the human population > has been schooled in elementary matters (again, not the case not so far in > the past). > > That is a massive improvement! > > Despite terrorist casualties, which compared to flu or car crashes, or > even toddlers shooting relatives with guns is two orders of magnitude less, > we live in the safest environment we have ever had. Not a regression at all. > > http://www.fayard.fr/histoire-du-terrorisme-9782213687308 has a pretty > useful background on their logic. Terrorism is the weapon of the weak in > terms of fighting force, otherwise they would engage in a full on war to > conquer the territory. > > The psychological impact is just out of proportions vs the number of > casualties. > > I got rammed into by a truck last week and could have been killed. That's > just a mundane occurence that statistically kills more people than any > terrorist attack would. > > Ref: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accident_de_la_route_en_France "Et > depuis 1945, les chiffres sont aussi Ã©difiants, car il faut parler d'au > moins 500 000 morts, soit l'Ã©quivalent d'un grand conflit majeur, ou > l'Ã©quivalent des pertes humaines subies en France lors de la Seconde Guerre > mondiale." > > Not to mention domestic accidents: "Chaque annÃ©e en France, prÃ¨s de > 20 000 personnes dÃ©cÃ¨dent dans un accident domestique, c'est trois fois > plus que sur la route."" Plus de la moitiÃ© des accidents de la vie > courante concerne des enfants de 0 Ã 16 ans. Et malgrÃ© les progrÃ¨s > accomplis depuis les annÃ©es 80, c'est pour eux une des principales causes > de dÃ©cÃ¨s prÃ©maturÃ©s. Produits mÃ©nagers ou mÃ©dicaments accessibles, chaise > haute non sanglÃ©e, table Ã langer instable. en quelques minutes, la vie > peut tourner au drame. Il faut savoir que chez les tout-petits, c'est Ã > l'intÃ©rieur de la maison que se situe le danger" > > Best course of action is to keep on trucking and be a productive element > of society. No matter what. YOLO after all. > > Phil > > > > > > > On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 9:44 PM, stepharong <stepharong(a)free.fr> wrote: > > Indeed, immensely sad. Humanity is under regression. > When you see that in Mali they destroyed the oldest world library. > What sadden me the most is that in case of attacks in France, these > attacks were made by brainwashed french > citezen against french citizen contrary to what ugly "politician" would > like that we think. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Berlin_attack > > It is really sad that these things happen, that so many innocent people > are killed and hurt. It makes me even more sad that I seem to be getting > used to this, that should not be the case, at all. > > Sven > > > > > -- > Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ > > >

Dec. 22, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Berlin 2016-12-19

by phil＠highoctane.be

Regression? Consider that 1 human on 5 is under the poverty line vs 1 on 2 not so many years ago and that a large percentage of the human population has been schooled in elementary matters (again, not the case not so far in the past). That is a massive improvement! Despite terrorist casualties, which compared to flu or car crashes, or even toddlers shooting relatives with guns is two orders of magnitude less, we live in the safest environment we have ever had. Not a regression at all. http://www.fayard.fr/histoire-du-terrorisme-9782213687308 has a pretty useful background on their logic. Terrorism is the weapon of the weak in terms of fighting force, otherwise they would engage in a full on war to conquer the territory. The psychological impact is just out of proportions vs the number of casualties. I got rammed into by a truck last week and could have been killed. That's just a mundane occurence that statistically kills more people than any terrorist attack would. Ref: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accident_de_la_route_en_France "Et depuis 1945, les chiffres sont aussi Ã©difiants, car il faut parler d'au moins 500 000 morts, soit l'Ã©quivalent d'un grand conflit majeur, ou l'Ã©quivalent des pertes humaines subies en France lors de la Seconde Guerre mondiale." Not to mention domestic accidents: "Chaque annÃ©e en France, prÃ¨s de 20 000 personnes dÃ©cÃ¨dent dans un accident domestique, c'est trois fois plus que sur la route."" Plus de la moitiÃ© des accidents de la vie courante concerne des enfants de 0 Ã 16 ans. Et malgrÃ© les progrÃ¨s accomplis depuis les annÃ©es 80, c'est pour eux une des principales causes de dÃ©cÃ¨s prÃ©maturÃ©s. Produits mÃ©nagers ou mÃ©dicaments accessibles, chaise haute non sanglÃ©e, table Ã langer instable. en quelques minutes, la vie peut tourner au drame. Il faut savoir que chez les tout-petits, c'est Ã l'intÃ©rieur de la maison que se situe le danger" Best course of action is to keep on trucking and be a productive element of society. No matter what. YOLO after all. Phil On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 9:44 PM, stepharong <stepharong(a)free.fr> wrote: > Indeed, immensely sad. Humanity is under regression. > When you see that in Mali they destroyed the oldest world library. > What sadden me the most is that in case of attacks in France, these > attacks were made by brainwashed french > citezen against french citizen contrary to what ugly "politician" would > like that we think. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Berlin_attack >> >> It is really sad that these things happen, that so many innocent people >> are killed and hurt. It makes me even more sad that I seem to be getting >> used to this, that should not be the case, at all. >> >> Sven >> >> >> > > -- > Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ > >

Dec. 21, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] MQTT for Pharo

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

> On 21 Dec 2016, at 18:19, Henrik Johansen <henrik.s.johansen(a)veloxit.no> wrote: > >> >> On 21 Dec 2016, at 16:52 , Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: >> >>> >>> On 21 Dec 2016, at 16:04, Henrik Johansen <henrik.s.johansen(a)veloxit.no> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> On 21 Dec 2016, at 14:57 , Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hendrik, >>>> >>>> Thank you for this detailed feedback. >>>> >>>>> On 21 Dec 2016, at 12:44, Henrik Johansen <henrik.s.johansen(a)veloxit.no> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Sven! >>>>> One thing I noticed when testing the RabbitMQ client with keepalive > 0, was connection being closed and all subscriptions lost when receiving large payloads, due to timeout before the keepalive packet could be sent before waiting to receive next object. >>>> >>>> Indeed, I used my Stamp (STOMP) Rabbit MQ client as a model for the MQTT one - there is a lot of similarity, especially in concept. >>>> >>>> Keep alive processing is not that easy. I tried to do it by using read timeouts as a source of regular opportunities to check for the need to process keep alive logic. But of course, if you have no outstanding read (in a loop), that won't work. >>>> >>>> The fact that receiving a large payload would trigger an actual keep alive time out is not something that I have seen myself. It seems weird that the reading/transferring of incoming data would not count as activity against keep alive, no ? >>> >>> I never had a chance to investigate fully, but I distinctly remember having the same reaction! >>> It's quite awhile ago now, so my memory might be hazy, take the following with an appropriate amount of grains of salt. >>> >>> The first times I encountered it, it seemed quite random, occuring after extended periods of client inactivity after receiving only small payloads... >>> Setting a much shorter keepalive timeout than the default was/is very useful in reproducing/verifying if it is an issue. >>> The timeouts then occurred relatively shortly after I'd received a single payload with no other activity, and disappeared once I removed the resetting of lastActivity timestamp on reads, indicating that for at least rabbitmq (3.5 was the version at the time, I believe), receiving data was *not* being counted as keep-alive activity. >>> >>> The issue of receiving large payloads blocking writing in time was still unresolved, consistently cut off in the middle of (its own!) multi-MB payload transfers due to keepalive packet not being sent. >>> I couldn't see a solution other than abandoning the elegant single-threaded approach and do keepalive as a separate high-priority process, but the architectural choice for the app changed at this point to not include a MQ in first delivery, so the more involved rewrite for doing so before deploying in production, kinda got stranded :/ >> >> Instinctively it feels like messaging and multi-MB payloads would not be a good fit, at least I would suspect that they are an edge case. But maybe I am wrong. >> >> I think that the code in StampMedium>>#readBodyBytes: and StampMedium>>#readBodyString: could be refactored to use a loop with chunk buffers and at the same time check the elapsed time to fire back keep alive pings if necessary. A ping too much would not hurt, better safe than sorry. But is is hard to catch any/all network slowdowns, any IO operation could hang/timeout. >> >> But all this would assume that the problematic situation can be recreated. > > Absolutely, far from certain the MQTT server implementations work the same. > > This is the test code I used for rabbit: > > consumer1 := StampClient new > timeout:1; > heartbeat: 5000; > login: 'guest'; > passcode: 'guest'; > open; > subscribeTo: '/exchange/testall'; > yourself. > [[ consumer1 runWith:[:message | Transcript crShow: '1 read: ', message body]] ensure: [consumer1 close]] forkAt: Processor userInterruptPriority . > > producer := StampClient new > login: 'guest'; > passcode: 'guest'; > open; yourself. > > [1 to: 10000 do: [:i | producer sendText: i asString to: '/exchange/testall']] forkAt: Processor systemBackgroundPriority. > > Sometimes, but not always, this would fail, either during processing, or some time after. > > A screenshot of how it looks when a disconnect happens during processing due to heartbeat failing can be found at: > https://tresor.it/s#HN4RG9PEX1SYyKy4NcM31w I installed RabbitMQ 3.6.4 on my Mac and tried your example and it succeeded ;-) But I modified it slightly so that both threads have a stop condition (I also used /queue instead of /exchange but I don't know if that makes a difference). limit := 10000. consumer1 := StampClient new timeout:1; heartbeat: 5000; login: 'guest'; passcode: 'guest'; open; subscribeTo: '/queue/testall'; yourself. producer := StampClient new login: 'guest'; passcode: 'guest'; open; yourself. [ [ consumer1 runWith: [ :message | Transcript crShow: '1 read: ', message body. message body = limit asString ifTrue: [ ConnectionClosed signal ] ] ] ensure: [ consumer1 close ] ] forkAt: Processor userInterruptPriority. [ 1 to: limit do: [ :i | producer sendText: i asString to: '/queue/testall' ]. producer close ] forkAt: Processor systemBackgroundPriority. You did see the #testSimpleWorkQueue unit test ? And the StampBenchmarkTests ? You could also try running StampBenchmark manually with higher loads. What I mean is that I normally use the #writeWithReceipt: and #clientIndividualAck subscriptions with explicit ack/nack responses. The reason is that the way you do it (although allowed and the fastest way), there is no traffic flow regulation: the producer basically sends everything in one big go (because it does not wait for receipts from the server), the consumer gets all messages in one big batch from the broker - socket stream buffers at different levels will just fill up. All this does not yet explain your problem, I know. I also did a checkin because I still had this modification in my image: === Name: Stamp-SvenVanCaekenberghe.24 Author: SvenVanCaekenberghe Time: 21 December 2016, 9:54:27.217571 pm UUID: ee3a7276-6e00-4143-9c3e-03a320c14ea6 Ancestors: Stamp-HolgerHansPeterFreyther.23 StampClient - minor refactoring in #writeHeartbeatIfNeeded (#wasInactive ForTooLong) - add #touch call to #writeNoFlush: === Just to make sure we're on the same version (I am still using Pharo 4 for this, BTW). > Cheers, > Henry

Dec. 21, 2016