October 2016 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] [ANN] Sparta v1.1

by Esteban Lorenzano

> On 21 Oct 2016, at 16:30, Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name> wrote: > > Dale, > >> Am 21.10.2016 um 16:12 schrieb Dale Henrichs <dale.henrichs(a)gemtalksystems.com <mailto:dale.henrichs@gemtalksystems.com>>: >> >> Norbert, >> >> I didn't realize that you were claiming that the new text model for Sparta was (potentially) inferior. >> The other day you were expressing sadness about having to use the newer version of Metacello (which is *only* 3 years old), so I assumed that you were just being generally cranky about change:). >> > it might be true it is a current topic for me. In my struggle to establish a solid devlopment process I have sometimes the feeling it is impossible. Especially when the new metacello thingie improves something I don't know but at the same time I loose Versionner and the commandline handlers which I know :) > The current (!) complaint is rather based on the fact that everything regarding the graphics backend, widget and tools appears sometimes as an indefinite loop of reinventing stuff and improving and never get the job done. Did I mention 64bit, UFFI,â¦ I'm glad all these topics are worked one and I see a bright future if half of them are done. But then sometimes it looks rather dark and the light at the end of the tunnel just went off :) > > <dark mode off/> now you are going to complain also for the dark theme? come on! ;) > > Norbert >> Dale >> >> On 10/21/16 6:50 AM, Norbert Hartl wrote: >>> Dale, >>> >>> I was not arguing against evolution. I was refering to the fact that work of others is mostly ignored just to come up with a potential weaker solution. >>> >>> Norbert >>> >>>> Am 21.10.2016 um 15:34 schrieb Dale Henrichs <dale.henrichs(a)gemtalksystems.com <mailto:dale.henrichs@gemtalksystems.com>>: >>>> >>>> Norbert, >>>> >>>> It is also called evolution ... with each step forward new possibilities are revealed and often the old (current) way of doing things needs to change to better leverage these new possibilities ... and evolution is required[4]. >>>> Change is also painful and keeping up with an ever-changing system takes a lot of individual effort. >>>> >>>> If you don't want to deal with change, then pick a Pharo version and stick with it ... Pharo3.0 is still functional and I for one make sure that all new versions of Metacello work on older versions of Squeak, Pharo and GemStone[1] --- but you don't have to use the newer version of Metacello if you don't want to:). >>>> >>>> I use Pharo3.0 on a daily basis for tODE -- I decided that I wanted to spend my time evolving and changing tODE itself rather than spend a portion of every year porting to a newer version of Pharo. Fortunately I don't NEED the fancy new widgets in Pharo3.0 to make progress with tODE. >>>> Metacello is not the only project to ensure that it continues to function on older versions of Pharo. Seaside[2], Voyage[3] and I'm sure others make an effort to continue to function on older versions of Pharo --- the technology exists for maintaining compatibility with older versions of Pharo for those projects that aren't making the effort now. >>>> If you choose to leverage the benefits of the newer versions of Pharo, then you must accept the cost, but you can pace yourself if the rate of change becomes too much. >>>> >>>> Dale >>>> [1] https://travis-ci.org/dalehenrich/metacello-work/builds/168940183 <https://travis-ci.org/dalehenrich/metacello-work/builds/168940183> >>>> [2] https://travis-ci.org/SeasideSt/Seaside/builds/160382244 <https://travis-ci.org/SeasideSt/Seaside/builds/160382244> >>>> [3] https://travis-ci.org/pharo-nosql/voyage/builds/167012791 <https://travis-ci.org/pharo-nosql/voyage/builds/167012791> >>>> [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_evolution <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_evolution> >>>> >>>> On 10/21/16 12:10 AM, Norbert Hartl wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Am 21.10.2016 um 04:00 schrieb Sean P. DeNigris <sean(a)clipperadams.com <mailto:sean@clipperadams.com>>: >>>>> >>>>>> Denis Kudriashov wrote >>>>>>> I look at code and it seems you implemented another one new text model? >>>>>>> Why >>>>>>> you not use TxText? >>>>>> >>>>>> Argh. I know it's bad form to complain about gifts, but at the rate we >>>>>> reinvent the wheel, I often fear that I will be retired from programming >>>>>> before we have a sane text model :/ >>>>>> >>>>> It has a name and we should fight it: >>>>> >>>>> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_invented_here <https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_invented_here> >>>>> >>>>> Norbert >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Sean >>>>>> -- >>>>>> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/ANN-Sparta-v1-1-tp4919394p4919570.html <http://forum.world.st/ANN-Sparta-v1-1-tp4919394p4919570.html> >>>>>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com <http://nabble.com/>. >>>>>> >>>> >>> >> >

Oct. 21, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Again about scrolling with a trackpad

by Yuriy Tymchuk

I can understand that adding an option may be complicated, and that's why I'm asking if anyone actually need this, because otherwise we can just remove that functionality. Uko Sent from my iPhone > On 21 Oct 2016, at 16:47, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > > This has been a problem for a very long time, it also happens with the magic mouse. > > It feels like there should be an option to disable interpreting side scrolling. > >> On 21 Oct 2016, at 16:44, Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk(a)me.com> wrote: >> >> If I remember correctly on side scrolling the vm generates "ctrl + â" and "ctrl + â" keystroke events. Then some morph listens to them and switches focus. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On 21 Oct 2016, at 16:31, Nicolai Hess <nicolaihess(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> 2016-10-21 15:56 GMT+02:00 Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk(a)me.com>: >>> Ok, >>> >>> there is a problem that when you use trackpad with pharo and you scroll something strange happens. And it was documented that when you scroll sideways itâs registered as ctrl + arrow click and it switches focus. >>> >>> Now it seems that on Siera it became worse because now I cannot normally scroll at all. >>> >>> Additionally this causes a lot of problems: i.e. when someone wanted to remove history plugin from nautilus many of people protested because when your navigation is fucked up during scrolling you can get back. >>> >>> Now I started to think: why wonât we simply delete the code that registers these events. So I have a question, does anybody find this functionality useful? I find it super frustrating. And if everyone else does, maybe we can simply remove that. >>> >>> Also while the time passes, does anybody have any idea on how to hack Pharo to ignore these events? >>> >>> Which events? >>> >>> Because I need to work and I can notâ¦ >>> >>> Cheers. >>> Uko >>> > >

Oct. 21, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Again about scrolling with a trackpad

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

This has been a problem for a very long time, it also happens with the magic mouse. It feels like there should be an option to disable interpreting side scrolling. > On 21 Oct 2016, at 16:44, Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk(a)me.com> wrote: > > If I remember correctly on side scrolling the vm generates "ctrl + â" and "ctrl + â" keystroke events. Then some morph listens to them and switches focus. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On 21 Oct 2016, at 16:31, Nicolai Hess <nicolaihess(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> >> 2016-10-21 15:56 GMT+02:00 Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk(a)me.com>: >> Ok, >> >> there is a problem that when you use trackpad with pharo and you scroll something strange happens. And it was documented that when you scroll sideways itâs registered as ctrl + arrow click and it switches focus. >> >> Now it seems that on Siera it became worse because now I cannot normally scroll at all. >> >> Additionally this causes a lot of problems: i.e. when someone wanted to remove history plugin from nautilus many of people protested because when your navigation is fucked up during scrolling you can get back. >> >> Now I started to think: why wonât we simply delete the code that registers these events. So I have a question, does anybody find this functionality useful? I find it super frustrating. And if everyone else does, maybe we can simply remove that. >> >> Also while the time passes, does anybody have any idea on how to hack Pharo to ignore these events? >> >> Which events? >> >> Because I need to work and I can notâ¦ >> >> Cheers. >> Uko >>

Oct. 21, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Again about scrolling with a trackpad

by Yuriy Tymchuk

If I remember correctly on side scrolling the vm generates "ctrl + â" and "ctrl + â" keystroke events. Then some morph listens to them and switches focus. Sent from my iPhone > On 21 Oct 2016, at 16:31, Nicolai Hess <nicolaihess(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > 2016-10-21 15:56 GMT+02:00 Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk(a)me.com>: >> Ok, >> >> there is a problem that when you use trackpad with pharo and you scroll something strange happens. And it was documented that when you scroll sideways itâs registered as ctrl + arrow click and it switches focus. >> >> Now it seems that on Siera it became worse because now I cannot normally scroll at all. >> >> Additionally this causes a lot of problems: i.e. when someone wanted to remove history plugin from nautilus many of people protested because when your navigation is fucked up during scrolling you can get back. >> >> Now I started to think: why wonât we simply delete the code that registers these events. So I have a question, does anybody find this functionality useful? I find it super frustrating. And if everyone else does, maybe we can simply remove that. >> >> Also while the time passes, does anybody have any idea on how to hack Pharo to ignore these events? > > Which events? > >> Because I need to work and I can notâ¦ >> >> Cheers. >> Uko >

Oct. 21, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] [ANN] Sparta v1.1

by Sean P. DeNigris

Tudor Girba-2 wrote > I would kindly ask for patience. What is perhaps less clear is that this > editor is in the critical path of the GT project and we are committed to > deliver an editor that actually works. We are still investigating > different paths, both on the low level (like with Rope) and at the higher > level (like how to organize the layout). I really appreciate your long-term vision. My point/concern is that IMHO the most important thing is to "rachet up" - to alternate frequently between: a) releasing working versions of current best ideas (the many benefits of which include locking in progress, getting feedback from a wide audience, and getting buy-in/allowing users to adapt), and b) using that as a launching point for new experiments We are still using the same original awful text model that has stymied so many users/projects! Let's focus on and release something useable - anything - to take the pressure off while we invent the future. To illustrate the general principal, think about all the pain we have experienced because the last (promised) crucial step of cleaning and refactoring Squeak was not accomplished before beginning the next experiment! My question is: where is the sweet spot between the zero vision (but universal accessibility for actual work) of Java/C++, and infinite vision (at the extreme cost of immediately-usable artifacts) of Squeak/VPRI[1]? 1. This is not a criticism; they are just in a different business (cathedral building) ----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/ANN-Sparta-v1-1-tp4919394p4919647.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Oct. 21, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Again about scrolling with a trackpad

by Nicolai Hess

2016-10-21 15:56 GMT+02:00 Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk(a)me.com>: > Ok, > > there is a problem that when you use trackpad with pharo and you scroll > something strange happens. And it was documented that when you scroll > sideways itâs registered as ctrl + arrow click and it switches focus. > > Now it seems that on Siera it became worse because now I cannot normally > scroll at all. > > Additionally this causes a lot of problems: i.e. when someone wanted to > remove history plugin from nautilus many of people protested because when > your navigation is fucked up during scrolling you can get back. > > Now I started to think: why wonât we simply delete the code that registers > these events. So I have a question, does anybody find this functionality > useful? I find it super frustrating. And if everyone else does, maybe we > can simply remove that. > > Also while the time passes, does anybody have any idea on how to hack > Pharo to ignore these events? Which events? > Because I need to work and I can notâ¦ > > Cheers. > Uko >

Oct. 21, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] [ANN] Sparta v1.1

by Norbert Hartl

Dale, > Am 21.10.2016 um 16:12 schrieb Dale Henrichs <dale.henrichs(a)gemtalksystems.com>: > > Norbert, > > I didn't realize that you were claiming that the new text model for Sparta was (potentially) inferior. > The other day you were expressing sadness about having to use the newer version of Metacello (which is *only* 3 years old), so I assumed that you were just being generally cranky about change:). > it might be true it is a current topic for me. In my struggle to establish a solid devlopment process I have sometimes the feeling it is impossible. Especially when the new metacello thingie improves something I don't know but at the same time I loose Versionner and the commandline handlers which I know :) The current (!) complaint is rather based on the fact that everything regarding the graphics backend, widget and tools appears sometimes as an indefinite loop of reinventing stuff and improving and never get the job done. Did I mention 64bit, UFFI,â¦ I'm glad all these topics are worked one and I see a bright future if half of them are done. But then sometimes it looks rather dark and the light at the end of the tunnel just went off :) <dark mode off/> Norbert > Dale > > On 10/21/16 6:50 AM, Norbert Hartl wrote: >> Dale, >> >> I was not arguing against evolution. I was refering to the fact that work of others is mostly ignored just to come up with a potential weaker solution. >> >> Norbert >> >>> Am 21.10.2016 um 15:34 schrieb Dale Henrichs <dale.henrichs(a)gemtalksystems.com <mailto:dale.henrichs@gemtalksystems.com>>: >>> >>> Norbert, >>> >>> It is also called evolution ... with each step forward new possibilities are revealed and often the old (current) way of doing things needs to change to better leverage these new possibilities ... and evolution is required[4]. >>> Change is also painful and keeping up with an ever-changing system takes a lot of individual effort. >>> >>> If you don't want to deal with change, then pick a Pharo version and stick with it ... Pharo3.0 is still functional and I for one make sure that all new versions of Metacello work on older versions of Squeak, Pharo and GemStone[1] --- but you don't have to use the newer version of Metacello if you don't want to:). >>> >>> I use Pharo3.0 on a daily basis for tODE -- I decided that I wanted to spend my time evolving and changing tODE itself rather than spend a portion of every year porting to a newer version of Pharo. Fortunately I don't NEED the fancy new widgets in Pharo3.0 to make progress with tODE. >>> Metacello is not the only project to ensure that it continues to function on older versions of Pharo. Seaside[2], Voyage[3] and I'm sure others make an effort to continue to function on older versions of Pharo --- the technology exists for maintaining compatibility with older versions of Pharo for those projects that aren't making the effort now. >>> If you choose to leverage the benefits of the newer versions of Pharo, then you must accept the cost, but you can pace yourself if the rate of change becomes too much. >>> >>> Dale >>> [1] https://travis-ci.org/dalehenrich/metacello-work/builds/168940183 <https://travis-ci.org/dalehenrich/metacello-work/builds/168940183> >>> [2] https://travis-ci.org/SeasideSt/Seaside/builds/160382244 <https://travis-ci.org/SeasideSt/Seaside/builds/160382244> >>> [3] https://travis-ci.org/pharo-nosql/voyage/builds/167012791 <https://travis-ci.org/pharo-nosql/voyage/builds/167012791> >>> [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_evolution <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_evolution> >>> >>> On 10/21/16 12:10 AM, Norbert Hartl wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Am 21.10.2016 um 04:00 schrieb Sean P. DeNigris <sean(a)clipperadams.com <mailto:sean@clipperadams.com>>: >>>> >>>>> Denis Kudriashov wrote >>>>>> I look at code and it seems you implemented another one new text model? >>>>>> Why >>>>>> you not use TxText? >>>>> >>>>> Argh. I know it's bad form to complain about gifts, but at the rate we >>>>> reinvent the wheel, I often fear that I will be retired from programming >>>>> before we have a sane text model :/ >>>>> >>>> It has a name and we should fight it: >>>> >>>> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_invented_here <https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_invented_here> >>>> >>>> Norbert >>>>> >>>>> ----- >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Sean >>>>> -- >>>>> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/ANN-Sparta-v1-1-tp4919394p4919570.html <http://forum.world.st/ANN-Sparta-v1-1-tp4919394p4919570.html> >>>>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com <http://nabble.com/>. >>>>> >>> >> >

Oct. 21, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] [ANN] Sparta v1.1

by ClÃ©ment Bera

On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 3:41 PM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: > Hi Clement, > > Thanks for raising this question. > > In short, Sparta is inspired from Athens and it has a similar structure. > So, there is an in-image interface of the canvas, and there is a concrete > implementation through the plugin (based on Moz2D). To target a completely > in-image rendering, it is certainly possible to implement a BitBlt backend > of the Sparta canvas. To implement this part, we would need help. > > The goal is indeed to have only one canvas in the default Pharo > distribution: Sparta. However, this will not happen suddenly. Ideally, when > Pharo 6 will be released, there will be a beta version of Sparta + Bloc + > some tools that will be loadable externally. Then my guess is that it will > still take another year until we get the full development environment > working on top of Sparta. So, it is to be expected that this transition > will take at least 1.5 years during which time Athens will still provide > the option of running on top of BitBlt. > > Does this answer the concern? > It does. I understand a BitBlt back-end is possible to have UI applications running on a low memory footprint runtime. Now the question the community should answer is if we want to implement and maintain that back-end or not. > But, now my question: Would it not be possible to get the VM to not open a > window when in headless mode? > I would love to see that. It's theoretically possible, it's just a matter of doing it and integrating it while it's time-consuming. I believe there was some work in that direction as part of the SDL / OSWindow work. If the community wants to move to Sparta and does not care if the memory footprint is increased by 5 Mb for non headless application, it may make sense to invest in that direction instead of the implementation and maintenance of a BitBlt based back-end. > > Cheers, > Doru > > > On Oct 21, 2016, at 2:23 PM, ClÃ©ment Bera <bera.clement(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 9:07 AM, Aliaksei Syrel <alex.syrel(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > > Hi StÃ©phane > > > > Indeed, build is broken :) > > Yesterday I took a very brief look at bloc and can confirm that > development version is loadable in Pharo 6 and is completely Sparta based. > (all examples work for me) > > > > You are right, live environment on embedded systems is great goal to > achieve. Sparta must not prevent pharo from getting there. It is true that > plugin is relatively big (windows 7mb, osx 15mb, linux 18mb). However, it > is all-in-one build and size can be reduced dramatically. > > > > As I understand, Pharo for PC should not make any assumptions about > user's hardware. If gpu accelerated backend can not be used there should be > still a performant fallback backend which also needs a fallback that is > guaranteed to work even on Personal Calculators. (Taschenrechner). That is > why library is so big. For example for mac and windows Sparta is shipped > with 3 (!) backends that together build fallback chain, for instance on > windows: direct2d1.1, skia, cairo. Compiling library for mac without Skia > reduces binary size from 15mb to 10mb. Removing GL package and leaving only > software backends may reduce size even more. > > > > It is a bit different on embedded systems, since hardware configuration > is already known and there is no need to have so many fallback backends. > Library itself allows developers to add new exotic backends quite easily. > > > > Let's take Pharo6 for mac. It is shipped with the following libs: > > Cairo (1.4mb) + Pixman (2.8mb) + Freetype (0.8mb) = 5mb > > > > Moz2D is self contained and does not require any additional libs. > > Moz2D = 15mb, Moz2D without Skia = 10mb. Moz2D without Skia and GL = ? > (estimate around 6-7mb). > > > > As you can see we get almost the same numbers :) > > > > Yeah but none of the libs (Cairo, Pixman, FreeType) are required to run > Pharo, they're required only if you use them. I compile VMs without such > libraires and Pharo works just fine as a development environment and for > simple things like web servers. The Squeak VM for example have around 2Mb > footprint in total, including 1Mb for the C runtime (initialized and > uninitialized data, executable code) and 1 Mb for the machine code zone and > can run most Pharo features just fine, including for examples web services > and the IDE. > > > > Right now the VM cannot start completely headless, the headless mode > just hides the main window, so if the main window start-up depends on > Sparta, it's not possible to run Pharo headless without many Mb of memory > footprint. > > > > Which leads the first question... > > > > >> Is it possible to start your Bloc Pharo image on a 2Mb footprint VM ? > By asking this question, I imply, if there is no > Cairo/Pixman/FreeType/Sparta plugin, can the image run headless and can it > run UI applications ? > > > > The last problem is that Pharo can currently run UI application like the > IDE on a 2Mb memory footprint VM. Let's assume Pharo with Bloc/Sparta/etc. > can be run either headless on a 2Mb memory footprint VM or with a UI on a > 7Mb+ memory footprint VM. It means now people doing UI would need extra > memory, for example, in the case of android deployment where the android > app includes the VM and the image, the app memory consumption at runtime > would be at least 5Mb bigger. > > > > >> Is the community ok with this or will we need to maintain both the > Sparta back-end and a Bloc to BitBlt back-end as a fall-back to run on > smaller VMs ? > > > > > > Cheers > > Alex > > > > On Oct 19, 2016 22:16, "stepharo" <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: > > Hi Aliaksei > > > > It looks gorgeous. > > I tried to launch the Bloc image from the CI and it crashes during > startup on my mac. I reported that to Glenn and Alain but so far I simply > cannot see Bloc code. Is it working for you? I mean is it me that is using > the wrong VM. > > > > Then I have a question: > > > > - do you think that we can have a fallback in terms of back end for > the case where we could like to run Pharo on coffee machines but get a live > environment on such machines? This is related to the discussions we got > this summer about the memory footprint that Moz2D will put on us. > > > > I do not mean that we must have one but I think that this is important > to check because we can say that Pharo is small but if we need 20 mb > libraries for rendering there are some cases where this can kill its usage. > > > > Stef > > > > Le 19/10/16 Ã 18:06, Aliaksei Syrel a Ã©crit : > >> Hi > >> > >> I am happy to announce the release of Sparta v1.1 for Pharo 6. > >> https://github.com/syrel/Sparta/tree/v1.1 > >> > >> It can be bootstrapped with the following script: > >> > >> Metacello new > >> > >> > >> baseline: 'Sparta' > >> ; > >> > >> repository: 'github://syrel/sparta:v1.1/src' > >> ; > >> > >> load: #file:core > >> Examples are on class side of: MozExamples, MozTextExamples > >> (for linux users: if you use 32bit pharo on 64bit linux, sparta will > not work, since 32bit plugin depends on 32bit GTK which conflicts with > 64bit GTK. Either use 32bit linux or 64bit pharo. I tested sparta with > 64bit vm on mac and linux - it works, but some features fail because FFI is > not ready) > >> Release of v1.1 is focused on hardware acceleration, windows support > and text rendering. > >> What is new: > >> - Default backends on all platforms changed from software to hardware > accelerated. > >> - Now also works on Windows! Default backend is Direct2D for drawings > and DirectWrite for text. On multi-gpu machines per-app-default setting is > respected. In case of Nvidia it can be changed in nvidia control panel. > Sparta is x2 faster on discrete gpu than on integrated one. > >> - Added initial text support, for instance rendering and high > precision measurement. > >> - Per-platform settings system is now image based. Allows to > enable/disable hardware acceleration, change default backends, change > font-mappings tables. > >> Some text examples: > >> (rendering) > >> <Mail Attachment.png> > >> (measurement) > >> <Mail Attachment.png> > >> Cheers, > >> Alex > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > www.feenk.com > > "There are no old things, there are only old ways of looking at them." > > > > > >

Oct. 21, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] [ANN] Sparta v1.1

by Denis Kudriashov

2016-10-21 16:15 GMT+02:00 Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com>: > > I would kindly ask for patience. What is perhaps less clear is that this > editor is in the critical path of the GT project and we are committed to > deliver an editor that actually works. We are still investigating different > paths, both on the low level (like with Rope) and at the higher level (like > how to organize the layout). > > > > I am not against to any new implementation of existing stuff. It is > always interesting how things could be done different and especially if it > provides better solution. > > But I really fear that new text experiments will dramatically delay > releaze of Bloc and Sparta and following migration to new UI. And this is > real importance for Pharo future, and not possible moldable editor. > > Text editors are very complex domain. It takes more than year to get > working TxText and Twisty. Why not finish Bloc and Sparta with minimal > effort on adopting TxText or Twisty to run on them? > > I think there is a confusion here. Sparta was just released on all three > OSs (a major effort of Alex), Bloc is working and it even has TxText > working there on top of Sparta (another major effort of Glenn). If it is done then no complains from me. It is super cool.

Oct. 21, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] [ANN] Sparta v1.1

by phil＠highoctane.be

I think that the concept of a LTS will become useful at one point. Like, every 3 versions or so. On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 4:12 PM, Dale Henrichs < dale.henrichs(a)gemtalksystems.com> wrote: > Norbert, > > I didn't realize that you were claiming that the new text model for Sparta > was (potentially) inferior. > > The other day you were expressing sadness about having to use the newer > version of Metacello (which is *only* 3 years old), so I assumed that you > were just being generally cranky about change:). > > Dale > > On 10/21/16 6:50 AM, Norbert Hartl wrote: > > Dale, > > I was not arguing against evolution. I was refering to the fact that work > of others is mostly ignored just to come up with a potential weaker > solution. > > Norbert > > Am 21.10.2016 um 15:34 schrieb Dale Henrichs < > dale.henrichs(a)gemtalksystems.com>: > > Norbert, > > It is also called evolution ... with each step forward new possibilities > are revealed and often the old (current) way of doing things needs to > change to better leverage these new possibilities ... and evolution is > required[4]. > > Change is also painful and keeping up with an ever-changing system takes a > lot of individual effort. > > If you don't want to deal with change, then pick a Pharo version and stick > with it ... Pharo3.0 is still functional and I for one make sure that all > new versions of Metacello work on older versions of Squeak, Pharo and > GemStone[1] --- but you don't have to use the newer version of Metacello if > you don't want to:). > > I use Pharo3.0 on a daily basis for tODE -- I decided that I wanted to > spend my time evolving and changing tODE itself rather than spend a portion > of every year porting to a newer version of Pharo. Fortunately I don't NEED > the fancy new widgets in Pharo3.0 to make progress with tODE. > > Metacello is not the only project to ensure that it continues to function > on older versions of Pharo. Seaside[2], Voyage[3] and I'm sure others make > an effort to continue to function on older versions of Pharo --- the > technology exists for maintaining compatibility with older versions of > Pharo for those projects that aren't making the effort now. > If you choose to leverage the benefits of the newer versions of Pharo, > then you must accept the cost, but you can pace yourself if the rate of > change becomes too much. > > Dale > > [1] https://travis-ci.org/dalehenrich/metacello-work/builds/168940183 > > [2] https://travis-ci.org/SeasideSt/Seaside/builds/160382244 > > [3] https://travis-ci.org/pharo-nosql/voyage/builds/167012791 > > [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_evolution > > On 10/21/16 12:10 AM, Norbert Hartl wrote: > > > > Am 21.10.2016 um 04:00 schrieb Sean P. DeNigris <sean(a)clipperadams.com>: > > Denis Kudriashov wrote > > I look at code and it seems you implemented another one new text model? > > Why > > you not use TxText? > > > Argh. I know it's bad form to complain about gifts, but at the rate we > reinvent the wheel, I often fear that I will be retired from programming > before we have a sane text model :/ > > It has a name and we should fight it: > > https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_invented_here > > Norbert > > > ----- > Cheers, > Sean > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/ANN- > Sparta-v1-1-tp4919394p4919570.html > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at > Nabble.com <http://nabble.com/>. > > > > >

Oct. 21, 2016