October 2016 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] [ANN] Sparta v1.1

by Norbert Hartl

Dale, > Am 21.10.2016 um 22:15 schrieb Dale Henrichs <dale.henrichs(a)gemtalksystems.com>: > > > > On 10/21/2016 07:30 AM, Norbert Hartl wrote: >> Dale, >> >>> Am 21.10.2016 um 16:12 schrieb Dale Henrichs <dale.henrichs(a)gemtalksystems.com <mailto:dale.henrichs@gemtalksystems.com>>: >>> >>> Norbert, >>> >>> I didn't realize that you were claiming that the new text model for Sparta was (potentially) inferior. >>> The other day you were expressing sadness about having to use the newer version of Metacello (which is *only* 3 years old), so I assumed that you were just being generally cranky about change:). >>> >> it might be true it is a current topic for me. In my struggle to establish a solid devlopment process I have sometimes the feeling it is impossible. Especially when the new metacello thingie improves something I don't know but at the same time I loose Versionner and the commandline handlers which I know :) >> The current (!) complaint is rather based on the fact that everything regarding the graphics backend, widget and tools appears sometimes as an indefinite loop of reinventing stuff and improving and never get the job done. Did I mention 64bit, UFFI,â¦ I'm glad all these topics are worked one and I see a bright future if half of them are done. But then sometimes it looks rather dark and the light at the end of the tunnel just went off :) >> >> <dark mode off/> >> > Okay, so you _are_ being generally cranky:) Seems to be the case ;) Please, don't take it personal. I like others here are trying to propose pharo to other people and doing software projects with it. I can see the need for change and I'm able to adjust. If I complain publicly (and I keep myself from doing that for some time) it is just a sign that I'm not able to deal with all of this. It might be just me having that problem. If not it means that it might be a general problem and that's something to think about. > > FWIW, I took great pains to ensure the the old way of using Metacello continued to work the old (buggy) way while introducing the new (non-buggy) way and that you should be happy to only start feeling the pain of this new feature 3 years after it was introduced:) > I don't care which way it is. I took the freedom to take metacello as granted and didn't see the need to adjust my way of doing until now. It is quite handy to have a few parts in your workflow that are not moving. And I didn't know until now that there is an old and a new way. If Cyril is right and the commandline handler is using the "new way" then my complaint is as wrong as annoying. But that would be the perfect case that it changed without infecting me. Well, it is just the case that using the pharo commandline handler does not work while eval plus the new way works. So if I didn't do something wrong we should remove the handler for configurations. And as I said I was so happy having Versionner and now it is more or less useless. Well, I think others might do it the same way by managing their dependencies with Versionner and then copy the baseline method into the baseline class. Awkward, annoying and the best I can imagine. > I should also note that I have no plans to remove the old way of doing things, even though I don't recommend that anyone use the old way anymore ... At GemStone we have users running on 20 year old versions of our product, so I have an appreciation for "legacy users." > I'm sorry if you meant my complaint includes you. No, there are a few people that I would need to exclude from my complaint explicitly. But that is not possible without punching everyone else in the face :) I like the way you handle things. And I know you enjoy getting annoying questions from people like me. > If you are using filetree based projects then the only way to access them is the new way... > Yes, but you know â¦ things are moving and the "new way" is so "first half of 2016" because now we have iceberg which makes the situation potentially better but actually more complicated (you see ;) ). Loading projects do not anymore depend on a tool like metacello that loads but also on the kind of repository is created for all the projects inside of metacello. I'm nagging Nico to establish a workflow where I can checkout a git repo, load my project using metacello and then can use iceberg to management my development. But that is a problem we need to tackle anyway. In my metacello baseline I have spec repository: 'filetree://repository/'. to load my code from a sub-directory of that git working copy. That's ok but if I like to develop on that project I would need gitfiletree or iceberg to do that in image. So while for loading the project the filetree scheme based url is ok for doing actually work it is not. And I'm not sure where is the right place to put it. I could also imaging that I can instruct metacello to create the right kind of repository. > Regarding the "command-line", did you know that once you've loaded a project using the new way, that you can re-load a project using the following shorter smalltalk script: > > Metacello image baseline: 'AAA'; load > That's good and will try that. > I made a sweep through the docs a couple of years ago, but since no one seemed to be interested in using the new API I found other things to do ... and now that there's more interest in the "new way" I simply don't have the time (right now) to make another pass through the docs ... so you can be cranky about that too :) > Come on! Now you sound a bit cranky :P Norbert

Oct. 22, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Custom Pharo builds from terminal [ it was (Re: [ANN] Sparta v1.1) ]

by Dimitris Chloupis

This link may interest you command line people , it basically what I proposed as an idea early on https://github.com/guillep/Scale On Sat, 22 Oct 2016 at 13:20, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > I was replying to Thierry saying that we had issues with Pharo mixing > metarepo6 with metarepo5 > On Sat, 22 Oct 2016 at 13:11, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > > > On 22 Oct 2016, at 12:00, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Didn't Esteban fixed metarepo ? I think I remember him saying that he did. > > > fixed in what sense? > > Esteban > >

Oct. 22, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] [ANN] Sparta v1.1

by Aliaksei Syrel

As Doru already mentioned text editor is an important part of the tools. There are some requirements a text editor should fulfil. 1. Support of large files ( >> 100mb) 2. Support of large pieces of text located in memory 3. Allow developers to embed visual elements (pictures, interactive elements, custom elements) 4. Support of more sophisticated layouts rather than line-based. For example columns. 5. Line breaking 6. Text wrapping 7. Hyphens 8. Should be fast Tests show that TxText model is very nice for basic cases, works well for "normal" use. However, when it comes to extreme cases linked list of spans just fails, while rope shows great performance - and it also scales. Cheers, Alex On 19 October 2016 at 23:51, Denis Kudriashov <dionisiydk(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > 2016-10-19 18:06 GMT+02:00 Aliaksei Syrel <alex.syrel(a)gmail.com>: > >> - Added initial text support, for instance rendering and high precision >> measurement. > > > I look at code and it seems you implemented another one new text model? > Why you not use TxText? >

Oct. 22, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Custom Pharo builds from terminal [ it was (Re: [ANN] Sparta v1.1) ]

by Dimitris Chloupis

I was replying to Thierry saying that we had issues with Pharo mixing metarepo6 with metarepo5 On Sat, 22 Oct 2016 at 13:11, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > On 22 Oct 2016, at 12:00, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Didn't Esteban fixed metarepo ? I think I remember him saying that he did. > > > fixed in what sense? > > Esteban > >

Oct. 22, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Custom Pharo builds from terminal [ it was (Re: [ANN] Sparta v1.1) ]

by Esteban Lorenzano

> On 22 Oct 2016, at 12:00, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Didn't Esteban fixed metarepo ? I think I remember him saying that he did. fixed in what sense? Esteban

Oct. 22, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Custom Pharo builds from terminal [ it was (Re: [ANN] Sparta v1.1) ]

by Esteban Lorenzano

> On 22 Oct 2016, at 10:56, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > We need some easy to use gem-style installer on the command line. we have it: ./pharo Pharo.image get Seaside3 will load seaside into your Pharo.image this is catalog based, of course (there is no magic there, if you want an easy way to install things, you need a centralised repository). Esteban ps: there are a lot of perks like that people ignoresâ¦ what we actually need is a better documentation system :)

Oct. 22, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Custom Pharo builds from terminal [ it was (Re: [ANN] Sparta v1.1) ]

by Dimitris Chloupis

Didn't Esteban fixed metarepo ? I think I remember him saying that he did. Don't know how heavy and complex your setup is but if I was in a situation where the building process became to complex with several builds at the same time , I think as Phil said a CI would have been more handy. Its what we use for a vast array of custom images. Obviously you could make your own command line tool with Pharo. An image dedicated to building your own images , you alias the Pharo executable passed the image name to any name that make it look as if it is a bash command or bash utility. For example Pharo-build gitfiletree ./filetree -replace -stable -runTests On Sat, 22 Oct 2016 at 12:34, Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Kilon, > > 2016-10-22 10:56 GMT+02:00 Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com>: > > it depends, the power that pharo offers is just massive on this department. > > For example you say you dont like the idea of a global startup script, > thats fine because you can have startup scripts per image, they go to the > same folder as your image. If you really have a super complex setup it > would make sense to make a git repo with just your make file and startup > scripts. The makefile can be parameterized with command line arguments to > perform diffirent installs then its a just a matter of copying the correct > startup script to the folder with the appropriate image which of course is > something the makefile can handle too. > > > Good point: the Makefile has to copy the startup script inside the image > directory, if we keep that convention of building the new image inside a > dedicated directory to be able to clean by rm -r that directory. > > > > Mariano has a great post on the subject of startup scripts which what I > used to make my own > > > https://marianopeck.wordpress.com/2012/05/12/startuploader-running-startup-… > > By interactive mode again , I assume here you mean the GUI. Again it > depends what you want to do, a pharo install comes with 2 executables > pharo-ui which is the well known gui front and pharo which has no gui. In > both cases you have debug abilities though I presume it would be easier to > do this from inside a GUI. pharo and pharo-ui has an eval argument that > allow you to execute any kind of code and there is also a save argument to > save the image with your new code. > > > Yes. I've been using eval in Makefiles for a few years now. I even prefer > an eval Metacello new baseline: ... to the command line configuration > loader, because I can use the standard Smalltalk syntax with eval (and > Metacello) whereas I need to read the doc for the configuration command > line handler. > > I even have a 'deployment' version for external partners, where the > Makefile detect it is started from an archive extracted from git and not > the original git repo, and switches to filetree (and loading different > packages) to build the image. > > > > If you prefer GUI then you dont even need to pass metacello arguments, > just make a configuration installing all your dependencies and put it in > the STHUB metarepo corresponing to the version of pharo you use, it will be > available from Package browser and you will be able to install all your > dependencies with a single click every time you download a new install of > pharo. Or just install a tool that you can use from playground to install > the dependencies with a simple message. Or make a spec GUI or morphic GUI > and do all that from the comfort of your mouse. OR....... > > the options are just endless. > > > Yes. Oh well, in fact the metarepo thing doesnt work well with Pharo5 and > Pharo6, as one of the user of the GitFileTree configuration discovered a > week or two ago. If you are using Pharo5, a configuration in the Pharo6 > metarepo will override the one in the Pharo5 metarepo. > > > > Another thing to remember here is that a baseline does not have to have > one setup, you can have multiple setups installing things under diffirent > conditions. Baseline also are aware of smalltalk implementation (squeak/ > pharo) and pharo versions. That means diffirent installs under diffirent > conditions and some deep fine tuning. Baseline also allow for actions > before the install after the install, so even if you want to do some clean > up you can do this also from the comfort of baseline. > > Lastly but not least metacello is fully aware of git branches that gives > you even more possibilities since a branch even in the same repo can be a > completely new repo that gives you even more crazy options , since you can > have diffirent Baseline under diffirent branch and of course the branch can > contain its own code and assets (images, sounds , binary files, anything). > > > Yes, > > Thierry > > > > It really comes down to the way you like to work, pharo can do it, you > choose how and what. > > On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 11:37 AM Thierry Goubier < > thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi Kilon, > > 2016-10-22 9:52 GMT+02:00 Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com>: > > Actually we dont, I am using the terminal to get and build my own images. > Curl + use of startup scripts are more than enough. Simply , easy and > straightforward. Pharo offers a super easy way to export any method as a > command line argument. So there is literally no excuse. > > Pharo already offers a metacello argument so you are set to go on > installing anything you want through the terminal in your image and also > offers evaluation of smalltalk code as argument. But I prefer startup > scripts, I have made a startup script that can detect the name of images > and install different packages to them, you can do insane things with > startup scripts actually. > > > Yes, that looks pretty cool. > > I still stick with Makefiles and command line Pharo to build images, in > part because when I run different projects, I can store inside the git of > the project (i.e. version them) both the squeleton of the build environment > and all the build instructions, instead of having to put a project-specific > startup script inside a settings directory shared among all projects. > > But I certainly see the value of running the startup scripts in the image > in interactive mode, where it becomes a lot easier to debug them. > > While running them on the command line is convenient too (make build, > switch to email, reply, come back when the build is done). > > > > you can find my build setup here > > https://github.com/kilon/makePharo > > > I'll keep it in mind, thanks! > > Thierry > > > > > On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 10:06 AM phil(a)highoctane.be <phil(a)highoctane.be> > wrote: > > We need some easy to use gem-style installer on the command line. > > Pharo is perfectly usable for any kind of project provided energy is > poured in. > > Things are in flux, yes, and it is frustrating not to have it all perfect. > So what? If we weren't interested in wild things why would we be here after > all? > > Think long term: 10 years from now, improvements will have been massively > compounding (not to mention 20). > > I hope to have a huge win with Pharo business wise and be able to fund a > serious team. That's my dream. I am actively working on it. > > Pharo can stay relevant for that long I believe. I love the way it helps > me think. I love the fact that I can look everywhere I want. I love the > fact that this community has balls. I love to show the magic we can do with > it. If it all goes nowhere, I do not even mind as I have a damn awesome > time around here. > > Now, I also want a working text model. This feels like a kind of > psychological roadblock. Like a self sabotage. Let's put that dead rat on > the table and make something about it. > > I like Doru's Pillar editor. I guess the underlying engine will evolve to > make it faster. Great. Grafoscopio will also be a driving force there I > believe. Pharo can be superspeedy, no core problem. > > Sorry for the rant. > > Now back to promoting Pharo in front of Android/Angular/Java people this > afternoon at http://devfest.be (note that this is the 3rd time I show > Pharo/Amber there - they could kick me out but do not). > > /Phil > > > On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 8:12 PM, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > > Actually you are wrong, its not hard to use C libraries from Pharo. UFFI > is not a restart, its a continuation of Nativeboost , they are very > similar. > > Pharo FFI, whether its the old FFI, Alien, Nativeboost or UFFI, is more or > less the same. In the end an FFI is defined by C syntax , Pharo UFFI > borrows the easy of use of Nativeboost that allows you to take c functions > definition and use them as they are with a simple copy paste. > > Pharo is also is based on very good integration with C , like Squeak can > output its code as C code via the Slang interface though it comes with some > limitations. > > The availability of C libraries to Pharo is a reflection of the community > size. Comparing with Ruby is very unfair , as Ruby is vastly more popular > (think in thousand times) , hence why you see so many C libraries wrapped > for Ruby. Of course python kicks Ruby ass kung fu style with its vastly > superior array of C wrapped libraries. > > The moment you decide to use an unpopular language as Pharo then if you > are not prepared to get your hands dirty and you expect things on your > plate like Ruby or Python , then its time to go back to Ruby or Python. > > Pharo is not in flux , its evolving, every new tool or library you see is > an evolution of something else. > > We dont need Gems for Pharo, Dale has done a great job with Metacello, its > easy to make a pharo project in git/github and have it install all pharo > code and built C libraries wrapped for Pharo. Just because people are not > in the habit of doing this does not mean its not super easy to be done. For > example AFAIK my project ChronosManager was one of the first project to > install from Catalog Browser not only its Pharo code but also , pngs and > audio files. I made even an autoupdate feature that pings my github repo to > see if there are any new commits and then if so it alerts the user and give > him the ability to download the update with a single click. All that is > metacello. > > Metacello is probably one of the best if not the best package distribution > systems out there. Definetly vastly better than Python's PyPi and Node'js > NPM . I cannot praise it enough and I have no problem criticising Pharo > when I must. Dale has done an amazing job, period. > > On the GUI front on the other hand, its messy, no doubt about it. Morphic > is huge, ugly and almost not maintained. Bloc is probably going to be the > next step. > > I think the issue here is that we dont have Arduino or Raspberry Pi guys. > Same story for my field, 3d graphics. There is a OpenGL wrapper and the > Wodden graphics engine and nothing else. I and the author of Woden are the > only people here interested into 3d graphics, he makes Woden, I have made a > bridge with Blender Python , for using Pharo to make Blender addons and I > am now in the process of making a bridge with Unreal Engine. > > I dont see why you would have an issue using Pharo from Raspberry Pi, we > already support SDL and you can even run Pharo with no GUI from the > terminal and export any Pharo method as a command line argument. My Python > socket bridge also showed me that is dead easy to connect Pharo with other > programming languages, in my case python , with just a few hundred lines of > code. Typical IPC. > > So there are no excuses for not using Pharo, from there on, it depends on > your specific needs and wants and taste. > > On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 7:05 PM Todd Blanchard <tblanchard(a)mac.com> wrote: > > > On Oct 21, 2016, at 07:30, Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name> wrote: > > The current (!) complaint is rather based on the fact that everything > regarding the graphics backend, widget and tools appears sometimes as an > indefinite loop of reinventing stuff and improving and never get the job > done. Did I mention 64bit, UFFI,â¦ I'm glad all these topics are worked one > and I see a bright future if half of them are done. But then sometimes it > looks rather dark and the light at the end of the tunnel just went off :) > > > I feel you. > > I very much want to use Pharo to build devices from things like Raspberry > Pi's, iPhones, and Androids. I need access to native libraries. You can't > rewrite everything ever in Smalltalk and I don't really see a good reason > to. > > I've taken about ten years off from doing Smalltalk and I'm trying to get > back into it. My interest is piqued because I want to build nice custom > systems using the nifty new cheap goodies like Arduinos and RPis and it > seems tossing together a full screen Pharo image would be a great way to > build these appliances. In that time the story for how to call out to > native code has changed...twice. Everything is broken or in flux again. > > To me, it doesn't feel like there's any more platform to build apps on > than there was ten years ago and everything is still "just around the > corner". Pharo seem to be an experiment in building next generation > programming tools using deprecated last generation programming tools. I > don't see a lot of useful programs being built atop it - largely because > the base is constantly shifting about. > > It is disheartening that the Ruby guys can crank out gems with native > libraries that compile and work on every platform and pharo is still > constantly half broken with loadable native code "doable" but only with > great effort. > > I looked and Moz2D doesn't seem to have a light weight build for Raspberry > Pi. Is hitching Pharo to a heavy weight graphics library as a core > requirement a good idea? > > I'm starting to think maybe we need something like Gems for Pharo - > dynamically loadable libraries and resources - compiled at install if > necessary. > > >

Oct. 22, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] [ANN] Sparta v1.1

by Aliaksei Syrel

I use plugin for months and never had a single random crash :) It is very stable On Oct 22, 2016 11:55 AM, "Aliaksei Syrel" <alex.syrel(a)gmail.com> wrote: > MozServices crash is intentional! > When you load Sparta using metacello it runs installer scripts and > automatically starts services. But they are already running if you have > Sparta installed. > > I need to find a pretty solution for it. Actually it is complicated. > Services can not just stop while image is running, because rendering would > instantly crash. Imagine if Bloc is running on Sparta, playground is > rendered on Sparta. And now you stop services to update. What should > happen? :) > > Just take fresh image. I will add an assertion to forbid Sparta > installation if it is already installed. > > Cheers > Alex > > On Oct 22, 2016 2:09 AM, "Dale Henrichs" <dale.henrichs(a)gemtalksystems.com> > wrote: > >> Right, but since there are known bugs in Sierra perhaps MozServices is >> hitting one of them. >> >> In our case we hit a bug in poll() which is a bit surprising and >> apparently the bug is hitting Apple's own curl implementation -- see >> discussion here[1]... >> >> Dale >> [1] https://github.com/curl/curl/issues/1057 >> >> On 10/21/2016 04:56 PM, Denis Kudriashov wrote: >> >> Hi Dale >> >> 2016-10-22 1:20 GMT+02:00 Dale Henrichs <dale.henrichs(a)gemtalksystems.com >> >: >> >>> Denis, >>> >>> Sierra seems to have some issues. A couple weeks ago one of our users >>> ran into a problem with Pharo3.0 and Sierra >>> >> Pharo works fine. When I first time load Sparta everything works well. I >> am not saw any problem. >> But it crashed when MozServices are starting second time where dll call >> is failed (last log entry) >> >> >> >>

Oct. 22, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] [ANN] Sparta v1.1

by Aliaksei Syrel

MozServices crash is intentional! When you load Sparta using metacello it runs installer scripts and automatically starts services. But they are already running if you have Sparta installed. I need to find a pretty solution for it. Actually it is complicated. Services can not just stop while image is running, because rendering would instantly crash. Imagine if Bloc is running on Sparta, playground is rendered on Sparta. And now you stop services to update. What should happen? :) Just take fresh image. I will add an assertion to forbid Sparta installation if it is already installed. Cheers Alex On Oct 22, 2016 2:09 AM, "Dale Henrichs" <dale.henrichs(a)gemtalksystems.com> wrote: > Right, but since there are known bugs in Sierra perhaps MozServices is > hitting one of them. > > In our case we hit a bug in poll() which is a bit surprising and > apparently the bug is hitting Apple's own curl implementation -- see > discussion here[1]... > > Dale > [1] https://github.com/curl/curl/issues/1057 > > On 10/21/2016 04:56 PM, Denis Kudriashov wrote: > > Hi Dale > > 2016-10-22 1:20 GMT+02:00 Dale Henrichs <dale.henrichs(a)gemtalksystems.com> > : > >> Denis, >> >> Sierra seems to have some issues. A couple weeks ago one of our users ran >> into a problem with Pharo3.0 and Sierra >> > Pharo works fine. When I first time load Sparta everything works well. I > am not saw any problem. > But it crashed when MozServices are starting second time where dll call > is failed (last log entry) > > > >

Oct. 22, 2016

a pillar question (along with PRHTMLWriter)

by Esteban Lorenzano

Hi, I have this in stable pillar installation: PRHTMLWriter >>visitInternalLink: anInternalLink | href | href := String new. self configuration separateOutputFiles ifTrue: [ anInternalLink hasReference ifTrue: [ href := href , anInternalLink referenceAsHTML ] ] ifFalse: [ self internalLinkWillBeRender: anInternalLink ]. â¦ etc. now, turns out that: self configuration separateOutputFiles pillar configuration DNU separateOutputFiles :( since Iâm not a pillar dev, I donât know the rational behind the removal of that method so I donât know how to replace it. whatâs the correct way of fix that? any idea? Esteban

Oct. 22, 2016