July 2015 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] Freezing Bloc UI

by Nicolai Hess

2015-07-28 20:51 GMT+02:00 Peter UhnÃ¡k <i.uhnak(a)gmail.com>: > So apparently Firefox uses Pango on top of Cairo to render fonts. Is that > something we can apply? > Because the results from pangocairo looks much better than what is > currently in Bloc. > Can you show an example. with some info about: what platform cairo version the font > > Or maybe I should be looking into Athens-based solution? > What is Athens thens? I thought that it's vector canvas, but that's what > cairo is. Is athens just Smalltalk binding? Where is the line? > Yes, Athens is the API and cairo is the backend. All rendering happens through cairo (and freetype). > > Thanks, > Peter > > On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 8:47 PM, Peter UhnÃ¡k <i.uhnak(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> but I don't know if we will do this ever or if it is possible at all. >>>> >>> >> What do you mean not possible? That Bloc will have ugly jagged font >> without kerning? >> >> I mean whole Firefox (Gecko) is rendered on Cairo, so surely the issue >> can't be in Cairo. So maybe we just need to implement/wrap/bridge something >> somewhere? >> >> So if I want usable fonts I will need to start studying athens/cairo >> internals? >> >> Peter >> > >

July 28, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] Event handling insanity

by Thierry Goubier

Hi Igor, Le 28/07/2015 18:35, Igor Stasenko a Ã©crit : > > > On 27 July 2015 at 18:31, Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com > <mailto:thierry.goubier@gmail.com>> wrote: > > Le 27/07/2015 15:42, Igor Stasenko a Ã©crit : > > Nothing here is about things to fix, > but rather about how impossible to debug event handling in > system that > runs and relies on very same events.. > > > Esay Igor, just use a code event tracer as for example Jejak, and > all you describe below won't happen. Or an event logger, or > metalinks, or anything. > > I don't understand. You have the tools, why don't you use them? > > > Perhaps because i unaware of them? > And while i agree that using robust tools would help, i don't see how > tools can help with "unkilling" an image which you just killed by own > hand because of mistake you made :) That one is hard to recover from. We can only trace (and use an external logging tool), or remote exception/debugging capacity. > About Jejak, i only found this: > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/pipermail/pharo-project/2012-July/067679.html The current version is hosted on github, at http://github.com/ThierryGoubier/Jejak > Where i can read bout it? It sounds very useful indeed. There is no real paper on it; I can send you the technical report I wrote on it in 2007 at UBO, but it focuses more on how it was implemented (especially optimised) for VisualWorks. Thierry

July 28, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] Freezing Bloc UI

by Peter UhnÃ¡k

So apparently Firefox uses Pango on top of Cairo to render fonts. Is that something we can apply? Because the results from pangocairo looks much better than what is currently in Bloc. Or maybe I should be looking into Athens-based solution? What is Athens thens? I thought that it's vector canvas, but that's what cairo is. Is athens just Smalltalk binding? Where is the line? Thanks, Peter On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 8:47 PM, Peter UhnÃ¡k <i.uhnak(a)gmail.com> wrote: > but I don't know if we will do this ever or if it is possible at all. >>> >> > What do you mean not possible? That Bloc will have ugly jagged font > without kerning? > > I mean whole Firefox (Gecko) is rendered on Cairo, so surely the issue > can't be in Cairo. So maybe we just need to implement/wrap/bridge something > somewhere? > > So if I want usable fonts I will need to start studying athens/cairo > internals? > > Peter >

July 28, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] Freezing Bloc UI

by Peter UhnÃ¡k

> > but I don't know if we will do this ever or if it is possible at all. >> > What do you mean not possible? That Bloc will have ugly jagged font without kerning? I mean whole Firefox (Gecko) is rendered on Cairo, so surely the issue can't be in Cairo. So maybe we just need to implement/wrap/bridge something somewhere? So if I want usable fonts I will need to start studying athens/cairo internals? Peter

July 28, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] Subpixel rendering vm build?

by Peter UhnÃ¡k

On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 7:07 PM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > On 28 July 2015 at 15:02, Stephan Eggermont <stephan(a)stack.nl> wrote: > >> On 28-07-15 13:15, Nicolai Hess wrote: >> >>> 2015-07-28 11:21 GMT+02:00 Stephan Eggermont >>> Is there a specific reason to not have a pharo vm build with >>> subpixel rendering for non-US use? >>> >>> Why do you think there are different builds? >>> >> >> Shouldn't there be? >> EU has higher standards for software patents, so >> there are no ClearType patents in EU afaik. >> >> > Why you think there's something in VM that blocking it? > Or, if you speaking about Athens, i tried multiple times to 'fix' the > problem and force Cairo to render fonts with subpixel quality.. no luck :( > > And Freetype package has own subpixel renderer implementation (in > smalltalk , just FYI look at the code of applying a gamma-filter > > So, if you think you can do better, and feel adventurous, you can start > from > FreeTypeGlyphRenderer > and improve it.. > > I had impulses, once before to clean it up and > 1-st, understand what is going on > 2-nd see how this can be improved. > > > But you can look at this code, and let me know if it violates patent(s) or > not :) > Maybe all the patents are expired? http://www.freetype.org/patents.html

July 28, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] How to get better fonts?

by Igor Stasenko

On 27 July 2015 at 17:37, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: > Hi > > with my new glasses (yes age) I know see all the details of characters. I > tried to set some freeType fonts using settings > and I enforce FreeType but I do not succeed to get nice fonts. > Am'I doing something wrong? > > i understand, in general, how Freetype package doing the magic, but certainly missing deep level knowledge that would allow me to tell how it can be improved. (that is separate from issue of forcing the image to use proper font renderer - a freetype one) Stef > > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

July 28, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] Subpixel rendering vm build?

by Igor Stasenko

On 28 July 2015 at 15:02, Stephan Eggermont <stephan(a)stack.nl> wrote: > On 28-07-15 13:15, Nicolai Hess wrote: > >> 2015-07-28 11:21 GMT+02:00 Stephan Eggermont >> Is there a specific reason to not have a pharo vm build with >> subpixel rendering for non-US use? >> >> Why do you think there are different builds? >> > > Shouldn't there be? > EU has higher standards for software patents, so > there are no ClearType patents in EU afaik. > > Why you think there's something in VM that blocking it? Or, if you speaking about Athens, i tried multiple times to 'fix' the problem and force Cairo to render fonts with subpixel quality.. no luck :( And Freetype package has own subpixel renderer implementation (in smalltalk , just FYI look at the code of applying a gamma-filter So, if you think you can do better, and feel adventurous, you can start from FreeTypeGlyphRenderer and improve it.. I had impulses, once before to clean it up and 1-st, understand what is going on 2-nd see how this can be improved. But you can look at this code, and let me know if it violates patent(s) or not :) Stephan > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

July 28, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] Event handling insanity

by Igor Stasenko

On 28 July 2015 at 11:31, Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com> wrote: > Hi! > > Related to this, I find very painful to write unit tests for gui. > Generating event by hand is quite tedious. Someone has worked on that > direction already? > > Yeah, i spent an hour playing with making benchmark on handling mouse move events.. Had quite random results, not giving any clue where the bottleneck/problem is. Decrypting & interpreting message tally is hell of a pain. Especially when it is not quite capable to show all stats about where time spent (including simple sleeping time)... or maybe because i am incapable to interpret it correctly.. which at the end gives same result: no result :) > Cheers > Alexandre > > > > > Le 27 juil. 2015 Ã 10:42, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> a Ã©crit : > > > > Nothing here is about things to fix, > > but rather about how impossible to debug event handling in system that > runs and relies on very same events.. > > I had very annoying problem with mouse move handling and processing it > correctly, and i finally solved the problem after number of attempts to > track down where problem lies in.. > > > > So, here is small list of problems i faced: > > > > - broken image (image won't start up) , because i send unimplemented > message in critical place, thus image simply non-responsible/crashing > immediately after startup. Easy to fix (sarcasm) > > > > - debugger window spam on every event (because of DNU/other exception). > > A slightly friendlier problem than above :) > > > > - and last one, if you break some event handling/delivery, even if image > "behaves" you simply left without events doing what is needed, means you > got another form of a broken image, which you cannot use anymore and need > to start over and revert the changes you made. > > > > - veeeerrrrryyy slow event handling, because of printing every event > into transcript , trying to see where the shit lies. > > > > - decrypting kilometers long event traces to see what goes where > > > > But when things finally start work properly, you feel excited :) > > > > -- > > Best regards, > > Igor Stasenko. > > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

July 28, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] Event handling insanity

by Stephan Eggermont

On 28-07-15 18:35, Igor Stasenko wrote: > On 27 July 2015 at 18:31, Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com wrote: > I don't understand. You have the tools, why don't you use them? > > Perhaps because i unaware of them? Yes, our big problem. Great tools, not enough awareness and knowledge on how to use them. Stephan

July 28, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] Event handling insanity

by Igor Stasenko

On 27 July 2015 at 18:31, Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Le 27/07/2015 15:42, Igor Stasenko a Ã©crit : > >> Nothing here is about things to fix, >> but rather about how impossible to debug event handling in system that >> runs and relies on very same events.. >> > > Esay Igor, just use a code event tracer as for example Jejak, and all you > describe below won't happen. Or an event logger, or metalinks, or anything. > I don't understand. You have the tools, why don't you use them? > > Perhaps because i unaware of them? And while i agree that using robust tools would help, i don't see how tools can help with "unkilling" an image which you just killed by own hand because of mistake you made :) About Jejak, i only found this: http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/pipermail/pharo-project/2012-July/067679.html Where i can read bout it? It sounds very useful indeed. Thierry > > > I had very annoying problem with mouse move handling and processing it >> correctly, and i finally solved the problem after number of attempts to >> track down where problem lies in.. >> >> So, here is small list of problems i faced: >> >> - broken image (image won't start up) , because i send unimplemented >> message in critical place, thus image simply non-responsible/crashing >> immediately after startup. Easy to fix (sarcasm) >> >> - debugger window spam on every event (because of DNU/other exception). >> A slightly friendlier problem than above :) >> >> - and last one, if you break some event handling/delivery, even if image >> "behaves" you simply left without events doing what is needed, means you >> got another form of a broken image, which you cannot use anymore and >> need to start over and revert the changes you made. >> >> - veeeerrrrryyy slow event handling, because of printing every event >> into transcript , trying to see where the shit lies. >> >> - decrypting kilometers long event traces to see what goes where >> >> But when things finally start work properly, you feel excited :) >> >> -- >> Best regards, >> Igor Stasenko. >> > > > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

July 28, 2015