February 2015 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] Switching to Pharo from Visualworks

by Serge Stinckwich

On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 2:30 AM, Stephen Travis Pope < stephen(a)heaveneverywhere.com> wrote: > > Hello PharoDev, > Hi Stephen, > > I have a largish project (Siren) that I have developed in ST80/VisualWorks > (since 1984) and ported to Squeak in the past. > > I'm allows looking for a cleaner free ST80 implementation to host the > project. > I would love if Siren is ported to Pharo ;-) > > Looking at Pharo, it appears to me to be suffering the same bloat issues as > Squeak. > > I have a few questions: > > Why don't you all use a 6-paned browser (called the package browser in > Squeak) and control the introduction of top-level meta-categories? The > top-level (packages or meta-catgories) should be a list of 20 or fewer > topics such as Magnitudes, Collections, Graphics, Text, Compiler, Tools, > etc. and each of these should have 20 or fewer categories within it. I > ported the package browser to Squeak and reorganized their system once, but > people continued to add top-level categories to make finding their code > easier. I tried to add the facility to the Pharo browser a year or so ago, > and gave up because I couldn't figure how out how to subclass and refine > the > existing browser framework (and the fact that it seems to be under > construction). > There is no such tools in Pharo, but you can use the filter to see only the package you want. You may have a look to the AltBrowser of Thierry Goubier : http://thierrygoubier.github.io/AltBrowser/ There is a hierarchical view like the one you want. Normally you can load directement AltBrowser from Pharo 3.0/4.0: launch the configuration browser and select AltBrowser. > > Why do you still use the (terrible, IMHO) Squeak graphics and UI packages > (Morphic, Balloon, etc)? It appears that new mostly-redundant systems are > still being added to replace these, right? Can't someone reimplement the > VisualWorks "Wrapper" UI framework (or something like it) on top of OpenGL > contexts as in VW? It's help up pretty well after over 25 years. (David > Leibs and I toasted it just last December in Australia.) > > If you want to build interface, you don't have to use Morphic, etc ... You can use Spec : http://spec.st/ > How does a newbie learn what all the new packages are for? Glamour, Ring, > AsmJit, Zinc, etc. are neat names, but if they're not part of higher-level > packages it makes navigating the system (and even figuring out what they're > for) pretty difficult. > Glamour is part of MOOSE image : http://www.moosetechnology.org/ This is a DSL to build browser You may have a look to the ongoing books. There is some documentation about all these framework: https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-contribution/view/Books/ > > Are there any benchmarks of the current VMs compared to VisualWorks? The > last time I used Squeak (a few years ago) it was still pretty slow. I have > a > real-time event scheduler in Siren that I use to schedule MIDI, so I can > run > "drum roll" tests to see how the VM performs. > > Pharo and Squeak use basically the same VM. When you use Squeak, this was the stack VM or the newer one called Cog ? There will be a new VM called Spur with even more performances during the year. > How does Pharo handle user primitives or foreign function calls? Is anyone > maintaining the old SWIG implementation of Smalltalk? I used it quite a bit > to have Smalltalk code create and manage C++ signal processing graphs in > the > past. SWIG is still going strong, and it's embarrassing that there's no > mention at all of Smalltalk on the SWIG pages. > > There is many FFI engines at the moment. This problem was discussed during last PharoDays and there will be an action to have one unified FFI. > > I'm not trying to start a fight, and I really did like the initial Pharo > mission statement of making a tighter, cleaner open-source ST80 > implementation. Is that dream still what motivates the community? > If yes, where are the minimalists hiding? > There are still there, but it takes a lot of time to clean the implementation. One new statement of Pharo is to reinvent the UI also. There are some ongoing experiments with the GT-Tools: http://gt.moosetechnology.org/ Regards, -- Serge Stinckwich UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/

Feb. 5, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] Switching to Pharo from Visualworks

by phil＠highoctane.be

Le 5 fÃ©vr. 2015 02:30, "Stephen Travis Pope" <stephen(a)heaveneverywhere.com> a Ã©crit : > > > Hello PharoDev, > > I have a largish project (Siren) that I have developed in ST80/VisualWorks > (since 1984) and ported to Squeak in the past. > > I'm allows looking for a cleaner free ST80 implementation to host the > project. > > Looking at Pharo, it appears to me to be suffering the same bloat issues as > Squeak. > > I have a few questions: > > Why don't you all use a 6-paned browser (called the package browser in > Squeak) and control the introduction of top-level meta-categories? The > top-level (packages or meta-catgories) should be a list of 20 or fewer > topics such as Magnitudes, Collections, Graphics, Text, Compiler, Tools, > etc. and each of these should have 20 or fewer categories within it. I > ported the package browser to Squeak and reorganized their system once, but > people continued to add top-level categories to make finding their code > easier. I tried to add the facility to the Pharo browser a year or so ago, > and gave up because I couldn't figure how out how to subclass and refine the > existing browser framework (and the fact that it seems to be under > construction). > > Why do you still use the (terrible, IMHO) Squeak graphics and UI packages > (Morphic, Balloon, etc)? It appears that new mostly-redundant systems are > still being added to replace these, right? Can't someone reimplement the > VisualWorks "Wrapper" UI framework (or something like it) on top of OpenGL > contexts as in VW? It's help up pretty well after over 25 years. (David > Leibs and I toasted it just last December in Australia.) > > How does a newbie learn what all the new packages are for? Glamour, Ring, > AsmJit, Zinc, etc. are neat names, but if they're not part of higher-level > packages it makes navigating the system (and even figuring out what they're > for) pretty difficult. > > Are there any benchmarks of the current VMs compared to VisualWorks? The > last time I used Squeak (a few years ago) it was still pretty slow. I have a > real-time event scheduler in Siren that I use to schedule MIDI, so I can run > "drum roll" tests to see how the VM performs. > > How does Pharo handle user primitives or foreign function calls? Is anyone > maintaining the old SWIG implementation of Smalltalk? I used it quite a bit > to have Smalltalk code create and manage C++ signal processing graphs in the > past. SWIG is still going strong, and it's embarrassing that there's no > mention at all of Smalltalk on the SWIG pages. > > > I'm not trying to start a fight, and I really did like the initial Pharo > mission statement of making a tighter, cleaner open-source ST80 > implementation. Is that dream still what motivates the community? > If yes, where are the minimalists hiding? There aren't that many high level categories. Any trip to Java? One can reduce the list with any regex in the box above the list and get that reduced list. e.g. ^Kernel There is a SWIG that supports Pharo. Check the Woden project as it used SWIG to wrap OpenGL/OpenCL. The SWIG thing is in the rmGithub repo of the Woden developer. Read Deep into Pharo for explanations on some packages. Also go to squarebaracketsassociates on github for books in progress etc. Id you want to create browsers maybe your best bet is to go the GToolkit route. Glamour is the framework supporting all of that. Nautilus can feel a bit unfinished but that's one get when challenging the status quo and learning how to go the the next level. Graphics are supported by Athens which wraps Cairo. Look in there, there is quite useful material. OSWindow and libSDL bindings open the door to better/faster interactions. I like Morphic and Balloon as they help me get how things are happening under the hood. FFI options experiences lots of attention at the moment. FFI as in original FFI works. Alien is there but kind of stale. NativeBoost works on x86 uFFI is a bew thing. One can also use the CCodeGenerator from inside the image. Need to load it first. BTW, I like your work and would love to see it working in Pharo. HTH Phil > > Stephen Pope > HeavenEverywhere Media and FASTLabInc.com > Santa Barbara, CA USA > > -- > > Stephen Travis Pope Santa Barbara, California, USA http://HeavenEverywhere.com > >

Feb. 5, 2015

ImageWorkerTest>>#testError is failing

by Juraj Kubelka

Hi, a validation report <https://ci.inria.fr/pharo/job/Pharo-4.0-Issue-Validator/24207//artifact/val…> says that ImageWorkerTest>>#testError is failing but I do not have that test in my Pharo image and I do not know how to download it? Where is it come from? How can I execute it in my image? Thanks, Juraj

Feb. 5, 2015

Switching to Pharo from Visualworks

by Stephen Travis Pope

Hello PharoDev, I have a largish project (Siren) that I have developed in ST80/VisualWorks (since 1984) and ported to Squeak in the past. I'm allows looking for a cleaner free ST80 implementation to host the project. Looking at Pharo, it appears to me to be suffering the same bloat issues as Squeak. I have a few questions: Why don't you all use a 6-paned browser (called the package browser in Squeak) and control the introduction of top-level meta-categories? The top-level (packages or meta-catgories) should be a list of 20 or fewer topics such as Magnitudes, Collections, Graphics, Text, Compiler, Tools, etc. and each of these should have 20 or fewer categories within it. I ported the package browser to Squeak and reorganized their system once, but people continued to add top-level categories to make finding their code easier. I tried to add the facility to the Pharo browser a year or so ago, and gave up because I couldn't figure how out how to subclass and refine the existing browser framework (and the fact that it seems to be under construction). Why do you still use the (terrible, IMHO) Squeak graphics and UI packages (Morphic, Balloon, etc)? It appears that new mostly-redundant systems are still being added to replace these, right? Can't someone reimplement the VisualWorks "Wrapper" UI framework (or something like it) on top of OpenGL contexts as in VW? It's help up pretty well after over 25 years. (David Leibs and I toasted it just last December in Australia.) How does a newbie learn what all the new packages are for? Glamour, Ring, AsmJit, Zinc, etc. are neat names, but if they're not part of higher-level packages it makes navigating the system (and even figuring out what they're for) pretty difficult. Are there any benchmarks of the current VMs compared to VisualWorks? The last time I used Squeak (a few years ago) it was still pretty slow. I have a real-time event scheduler in Siren that I use to schedule MIDI, so I can run "drum roll" tests to see how the VM performs. How does Pharo handle user primitives or foreign function calls? Is anyone maintaining the old SWIG implementation of Smalltalk? I used it quite a bit to have Smalltalk code create and manage C++ signal processing graphs in the past. SWIG is still going strong, and it's embarrassing that there's no mention at all of Smalltalk on the SWIG pages. I'm not trying to start a fight, and I really did like the initial Pharo mission statement of making a tighter, cleaner open-source ST80 implementation. Is that dream still what motivates the community? If yes, where are the minimalists hiding? Stephen Pope HeavenEverywhere Media and FASTLabInc.com Santa Barbara, CA USA -- Stephen Travis Pope Santa Barbara, California, USA http://HeavenEverywhere.com <http://heaveneverywhere.com/>

Feb. 5, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] How can I specify the bindings when evaluating an expression?

by Sean P. DeNigris

Nicolai Hess wrote > We lost this feature in 40097 Which feature? Using bare associations instead of WorkspaceVariables? ----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/How-can-I-specify-the-bindings-when-evaluating-an-exp… Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Feb. 5, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] Real Selectors

by HernÃ¡n Morales Durand

Yes, I defined it once, it's not difficult to implement. The protocol was something like: Symbol>>asUnarySelector Symbol>>asBinarySelector Symbol>>asKeywordSelector Selector>>#suggestedSelectorFor: aString Selector>>#precedence Selector>>argumentsSize I defined also compare protocol methods #unaryProtocol, #binaryProtocol, #keywordProtocol. And then I've tried to split global SymbolTable. My idea was to separate symbols used for message sending, and those used for description (like when you define a Symbol for a widget name). But I should search it because it was time ago. Cheers, HernÃ¡n 2015-02-04 16:28 GMT-03:00 Sean P. DeNigris <sean(a)clipperadams.com>: > As I sit here writing this case statement, I'm thinking "Man, it sure would > be nice to have: > Selector > UnarySelector > BinarySelector > KeywordSelector" > > > > ----- > Cheers, > Sean > -- > View this message in context: > http://forum.world.st/Real-Selectors-tp4803732.html > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at > Nabble.com. > >

Feb. 4, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] How can I specify the bindings when evaluating an expression?

by Nicolai Hess

2015-02-04 23:07 GMT+01:00 Sean P. DeNigris <sean(a)clipperadams.com>: > Nicolai Hess wrote > > Dictionary newFrom:{ WorkspaceVariable key:#a value:3. > > WorkspaceVariable key:#b value:4} > > Thanks! That works great :) > > n.b. in Pharo 3.0, just replace the WorkspaceVariables with regular > associations: > Smalltalk compiler evaluate:'a+b' > notifying: (Dictionary newFrom: { #a -> 3. #b -> 4 }) > logged: nil > That's interesting. We lost this feature in 40097 (13584 <https://pharo.fogbugz.com/default.asp?13584> Forward code generation for Globals and Class Vars to meta object) > > > > ----- > Cheers, > Sean > -- > View this message in context: > http://forum.world.st/How-can-I-specify-the-bindings-when-evaluating-an-exp… > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at > Nabble.com. > >

Feb. 4, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] ||

by Richard Sargent

Levente Uzonyi-2 wrote > On Tue, 3 Feb 2015, Marcus Denker wrote: > >> >> On 03 Feb 2015, at 09:17, Marcus Denker < > marcus.denker@ > > wrote: >> >> >> On 02 Feb 2015, at 21:47, Eliot Miranda < > eliot.miranda@ > > wrote: >> >> Hi All, >> Â Â code as in the double bars forming the end of block arguments and the >> beginning of block temporaries in >> >> >> This is fixed in Pharo4 (I think we did that in Pharo3 already): >> >> I should search the issue in the issue trackerâ¦ it seems to be Pharo4, so >> justÂ 1296 closed issues to check thereâ¦ >> I will search for it. >> >> Another question: In the code I saw. ReadOnlyVariableBinding. I removed >> that in Pharo relatively early as it was not used: >> half of the classesÂ were stored that binding (old ones) all newer ones >> where just associations. >> The code to make aÂ binding "read only" was never called. >> >> Is this now used in Squeak? Is it worth the complexity? > > Squeak doesn't use ReadOnlyVariableBinding anymore. The bindings of > classes are instances of the ClassBinding class. > Without using separate class it's a bit cumbersome (and less OO) to decide > if an assignment to a global variable should be allowed or not. E.g.: > > Foo := 1. > > should work if Foo is a global, but not a behavior. It should raise an > error if it's a behavior. I have mixed feelings about that. In most Smalltalks one can write something like the following and expect it to work. | original | original := SomeClass. [SomeClass := SomeReplacementClass. ... some code involving SomeClass (typically a passed in Block) ... ] ensure: [SomeClass := original] That is, the name of the thing is not the thing itself. Of course, as long as one could write /Smalltalk at: #SomeClass put: SomeReplacementClass/, it would still be possible to achieve the same effect. (And of course, "Smalltalk" could be any namespace.) > Levente > >> >> Marcus >> >> -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/-tp4803298p4803783.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Feb. 4, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] How can I specify the bindings when evaluating an expression?

by Sean P. DeNigris

Nicolai Hess wrote > Dictionary newFrom:{ WorkspaceVariable key:#a value:3. > WorkspaceVariable key:#b value:4} Thanks! That works great :) n.b. in Pharo 3.0, just replace the WorkspaceVariables with regular associations: Smalltalk compiler evaluate:'a+b' notifying: (Dictionary newFrom: { #a -> 3. #b -> 4 }) logged: nil ----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/How-can-I-specify-the-bindings-when-evaluating-an-exp… Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Feb. 4, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] Installing Pharo on Ubuntu

by Damien Cassou

Markus Fritsche writes: > Hi, > > https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-contribution/job/PharoLauncherFinalUserImage/last… > > as used in the script for the Pharo Launcher throws a 404 - > what's the proper new address? launcher: http://files.pharo.org/platform/launcher/blessed/ vm: http://files.pharo.org/vm/src/vm-unix-sources/blessed Best -- Damien Cassou http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st "Success is the ability to go from one failure to another without losing enthusiasm." --Winston Churchill

Feb. 4, 2015