December 2015 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] [Pharo-users] [ANN] Pharo Consortium Sponsored Development Effort

by Robert Withers

Well, your countries have been intricately connected, and once again north of Sykes-Picot. Kak dela? Karosho. I'm more Germany/Egypt connected. What are you and the RMOD team doing, I am curious? Ok, I don't mean to drag us to politics, nor religion. I was making a point that connects Pharo to 21st century computing which will challenge governments, so it is related. Yet, I'll keep it on slack #randomrandom! ;-) cheers, robert On 12/21/2015 12:49 PM, Denis Kudriashov wrote: > I'm from Russia. Now I work in Rmod team and live in France. > But let's talk here about Pharo. > > 2015-12-21 18:03 GMT+01:00 Robert Withers <robert.w.withers(a)gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com>>: > > Out of curiosity and to make a point, where are you from, Denis? > Where do you live now? Many from different lands, closer to each > other than eah to our own governments. Trending into the future, > transnational connections will deviate from their (governments') norm. > > On 12/21/2015 10:17 AM, Denis Kudriashov wrote: >> >> 2015-12-21 11:19 GMT+01:00 Robert Withers >> <robert.w.withers(a)gmail.com <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com>>: >> >> governments cannot crack it. >> >> >> Why it is disadvantage? > > -- > . .. ... ^,^ robert > Go Panthers! > > -- . .. ... ^,^ robert Go Panthers!

Dec. 21, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] [Pharo-users] [ANN] Pharo Consortium Sponsored Development Effort

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

> On 21 Dec 2015, at 17:20, Robert Withers <robert.w.withers(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On 12/21/2015 10:17 AM, Denis Kudriashov wrote: >> >> 2015-12-21 11:19 GMT+01:00 Robert Withers <robert.w.withers(a)gmail.com>: >> governments cannot crack it. >> >> Why it is disadvantage? > > Governments stay in power, or exercise collective sovereignty, through dominion, agency and possession. Loss of control over information, and by extension currency, affects possession, or having control. They still have dominion and agency, but without three legs you can build no stool to sit upon. If loss of control over information and currency undermines possession, then the concept of the modern nation-state is undermined. I view this as a negative. This is not the place for politics, but cryptography is inherently linked to it. I must say that it really scares me if someone implementing all kinds of cryptography thinks that 'the government' should be able to crack it. If that is your opinion (I might understand you wrongly), than just write everything in plain text and be done with it. > -- > . .. ... ^,^ robert > Go Panthers! >

Dec. 21, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] [Pharo-users] [ANN] Pharo Consortium Sponsored Development Effort

by Denis Kudriashov

I'm from Russia. Now I work in Rmod team and live in France. But let's talk here about Pharo. 2015-12-21 18:03 GMT+01:00 Robert Withers <robert.w.withers(a)gmail.com>: > Out of curiosity and to make a point, where are you from, Denis? Where do > you live now? Many from different lands, closer to each other than eah to > our own governments. Trending into the future, transnational connections > will deviate from their (governments') norm. > > On 12/21/2015 10:17 AM, Denis Kudriashov wrote: > > > 2015-12-21 11:19 GMT+01:00 Robert Withers <robert.w.withers(a)gmail.com>: > >> governments cannot crack it. > > > Why it is disadvantage? > > > -- > . .. ... ^,^ robert > Go Panthers! > >

Dec. 21, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] #sum:, #detectSum:, #sumNumbers:

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

I would suggest not to change anything for now, let's wait for Max's poll or feedback from others. We could also pick this up again when we see each other IRL, like at the Pharo Days, that will certainly make it easier. > On 20 Dec 2015, at 22:09, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: > > Hi, > > I cannot seem to agree with the current line of reasoning, so I am withdrawing from this debate. Itâs late in the year and I know I need a break, so it is likely that I am missing something obvious or that I am just persisting in some sort of bike-shedding point of view :). > > Thanks for keeping up with this. > > I wish you all a lovely holiday and see you next year! > > Doru > > >> On Dec 20, 2015, at 8:23 PM, Max Leske <maxleske(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> I did a pass on all the changes that would be required (whatever the outcome of this discussion). Looks easy enough. One interesting point: FloatArray>>sum is implemented as a primitive in the FloatArrayPlugin and the zero element is explicitly defined as 0.0. The primitive will not fail for an empty collection but return 0.0. That would be in line with our new definition of #sum. >> >> >> One other thing: should the old selectors be marked as deprecated rather than being removed? I think thatâs the general policy, right? >> >> Cheers, >> Max >> >> >>> On 20 Dec 2015, at 18:19, Max Leske <maxleske(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> On 20 Dec 2015, at 15:26, Ben Coman <btc(a)openInWorld.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 12:43 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: >>>>> Doru, >>>>> >>>>> For me this whole discussion started because you (the standpoint that you take) hijacked the best selector (#sum) for a use case that is much less common than adding a collection of numbers which should give 0 when empty (you hijack it by not wanting to return 0, which I totally understand, but doing so you redefine the meaning/semantics). >>>>> >>>>> Max's point is to make everything more consistent and remove some API. I support that too. >>>>> >>>>> Now, I like Max's proposal. >>>>> >>>>> But, you know, my conclusion when the thread ended was that it might be better to throw all these selectors away, since #inject:into: covers most use cases at least as well and at least as clear. >>>>> >>>>> Sven >>>>> >>>>>> On 20 Dec 2015, at 14:10, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi, >>>>>> >>>>>> Could we not have sum, but sumNumbers instead? So, we would end up with: >>>>>> >>>>>> sum:ifEmpty: >>>>>> sum: (with error) >>>>>> sumNumbers (without error) >>>>>> >>>>>> From the outside, #sum: looks like it should parameterize #sum, but the implementation is actually different. So, given that in this implementation #sum is not a special case of #sum: the two should be named differently to reflect that difference. Hence my proposal is to keep #sumNumbers instead of #sum. >>>> >>>> >>>> I agree somewhat with Duro to avoid #sum and #sum: having different semantics, >>>> but I agree more with Sven about keeping #sum for numbers only and >>>> returning zero, >>>> so why not turn Doru's suggestion around... >>>> >>>> #sum (empty --> 0) >>>> #sumBy: (empty --> error) >>>> #sumBy: ifEmpty: (empty --> no error) >>>> >>>> alternatively could be #sumUsing: or #sumWith: or something similar. >>> >>> Also a good idea. However, looking at the methods on Collection, the pattern is usually #message and #message:, e.g. #sorted and #sorted:. There used to be #sortBy: but it was removed because the view was that the protocol semantics should be the same across all methods. >>> The current case is a bit different of course since weâre dealing with the problem of the zero element which doesnât arise in most other cases. Still, I think from a users point of view it would be strange to have to use #sumBy: when every other message pair uses the #message / #message: pattern. >>> >>> I feel that this argument (thanks Ben :) ) is also a valid point against Doruâs argument for #sumNumbers. While #sumNumbers may *technically* be the best name (which we canât seem to agree onâ¦), #sum, #sum: and #sum:ifEmpty: form a triple that naturally fits into the naming protocol applied elsewhere. >>> >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Max >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Doru >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Dec 20, 2015, at 1:47 PM, Max Leske <maxleske(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 20 Dec 2015, at 13:43, Gabriel Cotelli <g.cotelli(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Max, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> sum: aBlock ifEmpty: emptyBlock needs to obtain the sample evaluating the block. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> sum: aBlock ifEmpty: emptyBlock >>>>>>>> | sum sample | >>>>>>>> self isEmpty ifTrue: [ ^ emptyBlock value ]. >>>>>>>> sample := aBlock value: self anyOne. >>>>>>>> sum := self >>>>>>>> inject: sample >>>>>>>> into: [ :accum :each | accum + (aBlock value: each) ]. >>>>>>>> ^ sum - sample >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks! Missed that. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sun, Dec 20, 2015 at 8:59 AM, Max Leske <maxleske(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> I would like to wrap up this discussion. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 05 Dec 2015, at 18:14, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> So what is the conclusion? >>>>>>>>> I like the idea of Esteban M to have iterator because it moves some behavior out of core classes. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> [[[ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> aCollection arithmetic sum: [...] or.... aCollection >>>>>>>>> arithmetic avg. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ]]] >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> While I think that iterators are an intriguing idea I also believe that they are beyond the scope of this issue. If anybody wants to follow up on iterators (or unit types for that matter) please start a new thread / issue. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I propose to use Svenâs version for #sum:ifEmpty:. The result would be these three methods: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> sum >>>>>>>> ^ self >>>>>>>> sum: [ :each | each ] >>>>>>>> ifEmpty: [ 0 ] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> sum: aBlock >>>>>>>> ^ self >>>>>>>> sum: aBlock >>>>>>>> ifEmpty: [ self errorEmptyCollection ] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> sum: aBlock ifEmpty: emptyBlock >>>>>>>> | sum sample | >>>>>>>> self isEmpty ifTrue: [ ^ emptyBlock value ]. >>>>>>>> sample := self anyOne. >>>>>>>> sum := self >>>>>>>> inject: sample >>>>>>>> into: [ :accum :each | accum + (aBlock value: each) ]. >>>>>>>> ^ sum - sample >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Iâve attached a couple of benchmark results below. To me they show that >>>>>>>> 1. the new implementation is maybe a tiny bit slower but insignificantly so (if youâre going for performance youâll probably write your own optimised version anyway) >>>>>>>> 2. there is no need to duplicate the code (like #sum and #sum: currently do). Itâs perfectly fine to delegate to #sum:ifEmpty: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In addition to the above changes I would like to remove #detectSum: (-> #sum:) and #sumNumbers (-> #sum). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Note that once we agree on changing this API, we will need to also change #detectMin:, #detectMax:, #min, #max as well as all overrides (e.g. RunArray, Interval) of these and of #sum et. al. to stay consistent. The changes would of course be in line with this change, such that every operation has a unary selector with a sensible default, one that takes a block and throws an error for empty collections and a third that takes a block for the iteration and one for the empty case. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Please cast your vote for these changes: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 1. Do you agree to changing #sum and #sum: in the suggested way? >>>> yes >>>> >>>>>>>> 2. Do you agree to the removal of #detectSum:? >>>> ?? (not familiar) >>>> >>>>>>>> 3. Do you agree to the removal of #sumNumbers? >>>> yes >>>> >>>>>>>> 4. Do you agree that the #max and #min selectors also need to be adapted? >>>> ?? (not familiar) >>> >> > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > www.feenk.com > > "Speaking louder won't make the point worthier." > >

Dec. 21, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] [Pharo-users] [ANN] Pharo Consortium Sponsored Development Effort

by Robert Withers

Out of curiosity and to make a point, where are you from, Denis? Where do you live now? Many from different lands, closer to each other than eah to our own governments. Trending into the future, transnational connections will deviate from their (governments') norm. On 12/21/2015 10:17 AM, Denis Kudriashov wrote: > > 2015-12-21 11:19 GMT+01:00 Robert Withers <robert.w.withers(a)gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com>>: > > governments cannot crack it. > > > Why it is disadvantage? -- . .. ... ^,^ robert Go Panthers!

Dec. 21, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] [Pharo-users] [ANN] Pharo Consortium Sponsored Development Effort

by Robert Withers

Out of curiosity and to make a point, where are you from, Denis? Where do you live now? Many from different lands, closer to each other than eah to our own governments. Trending into the future, transnational connections will deviate from their (governments') norm. On 12/21/2015 10:17 AM, Denis Kudriashov wrote: > > 2015-12-21 11:19 GMT+01:00 Robert Withers <robert.w.withers(a)gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com>>: > > governments cannot crack it. > > > Why it is disadvantage? -- . .. ... ^,^ robert Go Panthers!

Dec. 21, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] [Pharo-users] [ANN] Pharo Consortium Sponsored Development Effort

by Robert Withers

On 12/21/2015 10:17 AM, Denis Kudriashov wrote: > > 2015-12-21 11:19 GMT+01:00 Robert Withers <robert.w.withers(a)gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com>>: > > governments cannot crack it. > > > Why it is disadvantage? Governments stay in power, or exercise collective sovereignty, through dominion, agency and possession. Loss of control over information, and by extension currency, affects possession, or having control. They still have dominion and agency, but without three legs you can build no stool to sit upon. If loss of control over information and currency undermines possession, then the concept of the modern nation-state is undermined. I view this as a negative. -- . .. ... ^,^ robert Go Panthers!

Dec. 21, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] [Pharo-users] [ANN] Pharo Consortium Sponsored Development Effort

by Mariano Martinez Peck

On Sun, Dec 20, 2015 at 5:21 PM, Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Mariano, > > Le 20/12/2015 19:54, Mariano Martinez Peck a Ã©crit : > >> Hi Dimitri, Dave et all. >> >> First let me do a little disclaimer. Regarding the developments itself >> of this sponsorship, we discussed about the topics I said in the first >> email. However, those are not written in stone and that's why I also >> asked for feedback. As you know, Pharo has relatively little resources >> so those should be well spent. If we decide to take a spin into a >> project X, it doesn't mean other projects are not worth. It simply means >> that we think X will be the most useful for the time being. >> >> One of the final goals of the discusses topics, is to improve a bit the >> infrastructure for using Pharo as scripting (imagine Coral). For such a >> thing, we believe that improving FileSystem and OSProcess-like is a good >> first step to improve the underlying infrastructure. >> > > Would we have access then to a command-line oriented minimal Pharo image? > > Well, just for putting perspective my sponsorship is about 3 full months of work effort. It doesn't mean I won't work beyond that. But to give you an idea. I think we all want minimal images , command line etc. And Pharo has already done a huge effort in that direction. > That being said, I of course like the idea of distributing processing >> across multiple images. No wonder, my PhD tool (Marea) and related >> sub-projects (Fuel, Ghost proxies, etc) have something to do with the >> mentioned topic. Dave already mentioned about RemoteTask, which was >> something I was about to mention. There is also Seamless project (now >> used by Remote Debugger stuff) and quite other tools. Finally, I think >> this project may have a big percentage that could be considered as >> "research". So having a PhD / master student working on this would also >> be nice. In fact, maybe Denis Kudriashov might work on that topic??? (he >> is now in RMOD team). >> >> Also, not that forking the image is not my main short-term goal. As >> said, I will experiment first with a simple tool to execute OS commands >> that would be FFI based, trying to make async operations, and that would >> help in most cases. Maybe for those that are not supported, then >> fallback in OSProcess. Note that Dave (OSProcess author) is very helpful >> with me and we are discussing together about this. >> > > My guess is that, at least on Linux/Unix, that FFI will be exactly the > same as the one used/expressed by the OSProcess plugin, that is > popen/system. > No, wait. You are getting down to the details so I want to discuss :) OSProcess does not use popen()/system() but rather fork()+exec(). That means that OSProcess has implementing the very very low building blocks that would allow you do to almost everything. But then it has it's complicated matters. fork() + exec() cannot be implemented via FFI (this was already discussed in another thread). However, there is a lot of other stuff that we believe it could. So... what we wanted to see if it is possible is to have one only (or very few) primitives (like forkAndExec) and all the rest via FFI. And then all the features I listed in the first email of this thread. With that in mind, we believe that: 1) Before starting dealing with forkAndExec, we could try a first prototype using popen(). That would allow us test a 100% FFI based approeach, deal with writing and reading from pipes via stream, face the blocking issue, see a prototype on how to read async from pipes etc etc etc. If we see this works nicely, on a second step we can build another approach that instead of popen() uses forkAndExec primitive. 2) We believe that there is a large number of OSProcess users that use OSProcess only for executing OS commands AND popen() approach would be more than enough (we will do a survey about this). So, a very simply solution via FFI for these users rather than having all OSProcess, Command Shell, the plugins etc, may be worth. What do you think? > Now, given some of the difficulties seen when dealing with external > processes, I'd be wary of the "async" side of things. Random failures > seemingly linked to signal loss are certainly not something I'd like to > debug. > > Indeed, it won't be easy I guess. But sometimes the process you execute may take quite some time and blocking the VM for that period is not a good choice. So... what would you prefer to solve that? Do you prefer image-based pooling as OSProcess does when IOPlugin is not used? > Something interesting and powerful would be pseudo-tty support. It would > allow a Pharo image to maintain an open connection to a shell, for example, > reducing the cost and latency of launching external commands and > maintaining a context. > Interesting! -- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com

Dec. 21, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] [Pharo-users] [ANN] Pharo Consortium Sponsored Development Effort

by Denis Kudriashov

2015-12-21 11:19 GMT+01:00 Robert Withers <robert.w.withers(a)gmail.com>: > governments cannot crack it. Why it is disadvantage?

Dec. 21, 2015

No refactoring for equal/hash generation

by Denis Kudriashov

Hi. There is no menu item in Nautilus to generate equal/hash methods for class. But there is RBGenerateEqualHashRefactoring class which can do that. And I remember that in past we had such feature from the browser. Should we restore it? I can submit issue for this.

Dec. 21, 2015