November 2015 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

[pharo-project/pharo-core] a4ba46: 50457

by GitHub

Branch: refs/heads/5.0 Home: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-core Commit: a4ba46aa059cc15f4892e91086abcdec33c4c677 https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-core/commit/a4ba46aa059cc15f4892e910… Author: Jenkins Build Server <board(a)pharo-project.org> Date: 2015-11-22 (Sun, 22 Nov 2015) Changed paths: M Nautilus-GroupManagerUI.package/DialogGroupManagerUI.class/instance/item creation/buildAddSelectedPackageInSelectedGroupButton.st M Nautilus-GroupManagerUI.package/DialogGroupManagerUI.class/instance/item creation/buildRemoveSelectedPackageFromSelectedGroupButton.st M Nautilus-Tests.package/PackageTreeNautilusTest.class/instance/tests/setUp.st R Nautilus.package/AbstractNautilusUI.class/instance/accessing/selectedGroup_.st R Nautilus.package/AbstractNautilusUI.class/instance/accessing/showHierarchySilently_.st R Nautilus.package/AbstractNautilusUI.class/instance/build ui/buildSeparator.st R Nautilus.package/AbstractNautilusUI.class/instance/private/popUpTestsResult_.st R 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ScriptLoader50.package/ScriptLoader.class/instance/pharo - scripts/script50456.st A ScriptLoader50.package/ScriptLoader.class/instance/pharo - scripts/script50457.st R ScriptLoader50.package/ScriptLoader.class/instance/pharo - updates/update50456.st A ScriptLoader50.package/ScriptLoader.class/instance/pharo - updates/update50457.st M ScriptLoader50.package/ScriptLoader.class/instance/public/commentForCurrentUpdate.st A System-Announcements.package/ClassParentRenamed.class/README.md A System-Announcements.package/ClassParentRenamed.class/class/instance creation/classParentOf_renamedFrom_to_.st A System-Announcements.package/ClassParentRenamed.class/definition.st A System-Announcements.package/ClassParentRenamed.class/instance/accessing/classAffected.st A System-Announcements.package/ClassParentRenamed.class/instance/accessing/classAffected_.st A System-Announcements.package/ClassParentRenamed.class/instance/accessing/parentNewName.st A System-Announcements.package/ClassParentRenamed.class/instance/accessing/parentNewName_.st A System-Announcements.package/ClassParentRenamed.class/instance/accessing/parentOldName.st A System-Announcements.package/ClassParentRenamed.class/instance/accessing/parentOldName_.st A System-Announcements.package/SystemAnnouncer.class/instance/triggering/classParentOf_renamedFrom_to_.st M System-Support.package/SystemDictionary.class/instance/renaming/renameClass_from_to_.st Log Message: ----------- 50457 17071 merge all methods of PackageTreeNautilusUI into NautilusUI https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/17071 17064 Add new SystemAnnouncement for "parent class name changed" https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/17064 17073 wrong arrow icon in Group Manager https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/17073 http://files.pharo.org/image/50/50457.zip

Nov. 22, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] Digest from slack to the mailing list?

by Dimitris Chloupis

Just to clear something up , because I see people in slack saying goodbye, or "I cant reply right now I have something to do" . Slack is not just a real time chat, it keeps messages inside a history of 10 thousand messages. So that means you can log in Slack at any time and not lose a message. There is no reason for you to be online all time, no reason to say goodbye, goodmorning , goodafternoon. You can come and go as you please the exact same way as the mailing list. The problem arises when we exceed 10k messages, the old ones get lost and I think having a place to store them is a good idea. Also what is important is in the eye of the beholder, for example I dont care about any discussion about web development , its just does not interest me or database coding or many other things. I have learned to filter out the messages I dont care about in the mailing list and just reject them. Slack is same story, I quickly glance through its history and I can search the messages that interest me using the search bar , I can star messages that I want to keep, and I can comment on existing messages / code snippets which create a thread about that message. In the end its impossible to keep the community in one place but to have a central hub that collects all the little gems can be quite useful. On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 3:46 PM stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: > Yes this would be good. > People should understand that important discussions should be via the > mailing-list. > Emails are good because you can consume them the way you want. > I simply cannot be connected all the time. So emails are good because I > can process them > when I decide. > Slack is good for more interactive session around debugger and things > like that. > > Stef > > > Le 21/11/15 18:05, Stephan Eggermont a Ã©crit : > > Should we have a digest from slack to a mailing list? > > We are already losing messages > > > > Stephan > > > > > > > > >

Nov. 22, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] A plea for responsive coding

by Dimitris Chloupis

because making something work for me comes way before making something work fast. On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 3:50 PM stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: > But why don't you manipulate Forms instead of PNGs. Converting from PNGs > to Forms should be done only once. > > Stef > > Le 22/11/15 11:53, Dimitris Chloupis a Ã©crit : > > here is the tricky part , I am willing to bet that the slow down happens > because of the stepping of the seconds indicator. > > The one thing I forgot to mention is that I dont load my images from > external files, the images are already converted to method sources , > strings , with Peter's IconFactory library. Still the PNGReader class tries > to convert those string streams to forms and is where most of the time is > consumed. The reason I chose this approach was in hope of a speed up so > pharo does not waste time opening and closing files. > > In the stepping of the seconds indicator I recreate the form in each step > , depending on the seconds. I could optomise that part by having all images > of the animation loaded into seperate forms during initialisation and just > use the reference of the correct form during stepping that should speed > things up a lot. > > Overall 170ms for opening that GUI is not so bad for a dynamic GC > language. Taking into account that this is mostly pharo code , unlike > python that it would be using a C lib to speed things up. I am a happy > Morphic customer :) > > On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 12:39 PM Thierry Goubier < > thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> Le 22/11/2015 11:27, Dimitris Chloupis a Ã©crit : >> > tried with ChronosManager >> > >> > [ ChronosManager open ] bench >> > >> > 5.6 per second >> > >> > it opened around 30 instances and Morphic was crawling. >> > >> > I profiled it and it reports that it spends a total 170ms which is >> > consistent with bench. Around 50ms is spent only for loading the image >> > of the secondary panel and from what I have seen loading the images and >> > the font accounts around 90% of the time spent and then rest 10% is >> > actually morphic + logic. >> >> If I understand you well, what you have is: >> >> - ChronosManager takes 170ms to open, including external resources >> loading time (which is SSD/HD dependent). >> >> - The whole world performance degrades with many ChronosManager >> instances loaded? (Moving one around probably forces others to refresh >> as well). >> >> What could be nice is to profile rendering time as well (but, if your >> first render time is included in the 10% of 170ms you quote, then it is >> probably fine). >> >> Would you like to try benchmarking rendering one ChronosManager instance >> when you have 30 instances opened / only one instance opened? >> >> > So from the looks of it , it looks like Morphic does not perform well >> > with loaded images and external files. >> >> This is a clear win if you cache those (i.e. have a LRU cache holding >> forms and fonts, filled upon first load, reused over subsequent loads). >> >> Thierry >> >> > >> > >> > On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 11:34 AM Thierry Goubier >> > <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com <mailto:thierry.goubier@gmail.com>> wrote: >> > >> > Hi all, >> > >> > I would like to ask you, all of you, something significant when >> doing >> > GUI coding: >> > >> > Pay attention to performance! >> > >> > With the current state of our technology (Morphic, Bloc, whatever >> comes >> > next) your target should be one hundred milliseconds (100 ms), for >> > opening / redisplaying the widget. >> > >> > Why? >> > >> > - Because, in 10ms, Morphic can open and layout dozens of Morphs on >> a >> > low-end machine (1.4GHz Celeron). >> > >> > - Because most of you work on 3GHz+ i7 Macbook Pro (so, at 10x the >> cpu >> > performance of that said Celeron). >> > >> > - Because you are not to reproduce the past: that your current >> tools are >> > slow is no excuse. >> > >> > - Because you now have well designed core widgets (FT) that behaves >> in >> > O(1) and opens fully loaded in 10's of milliseconds >> > >> > So, profile and clean your code! Eliminate unneeded caches! Clean >> your >> > architectures! Avoid or mark slow code and bottlenecks! >> > >> > And bring numbers when you want to criticize the performance of a >> > subsystem... >> > >> > Thierry >> > >> >> >> >

Nov. 22, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] A plea for responsive coding

by stepharo

But why don't you manipulate Forms instead of PNGs. Converting from PNGs to Forms should be done only once. Stef Le 22/11/15 11:53, Dimitris Chloupis a Ã©crit : > here is the tricky part , I am willing to bet that the slow down > happens because of the stepping of the seconds indicator. > > The one thing I forgot to mention is that I dont load my images from > external files, the images are already converted to method sources , > strings , with Peter's IconFactory library. Still the PNGReader class > tries to convert those string streams to forms and is where most of > the time is consumed. The reason I chose this approach was in hope of > a speed up so pharo does not waste time opening and closing files. > > In the stepping of the seconds indicator I recreate the form in each > step , depending on the seconds. I could optomise that part by having > all images of the animation loaded into seperate forms during > initialisation and just use the reference of the correct form during > stepping that should speed things up a lot. > > Overall 170ms for opening that GUI is not so bad for a dynamic GC > language. Taking into account that this is mostly pharo code , unlike > python that it would be using a C lib to speed things up. I am a happy > Morphic customer :) > > On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 12:39 PM Thierry Goubier > <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com <mailto:thierry.goubier@gmail.com>> wrote: > > Le 22/11/2015 11:27, Dimitris Chloupis a Ã©crit : > > tried with ChronosManager > > > > [ ChronosManager open ] bench > > > > 5.6 per second > > > > it opened around 30 instances and Morphic was crawling. > > > > I profiled it and it reports that it spends a total 170ms which is > > consistent with bench. Around 50ms is spent only for loading the > image > > of the secondary panel and from what I have seen loading the > images and > > the font accounts around 90% of the time spent and then rest 10% is > > actually morphic + logic. > > If I understand you well, what you have is: > > - ChronosManager takes 170ms to open, including external resources > loading time (which is SSD/HD dependent). > > - The whole world performance degrades with many ChronosManager > instances loaded? (Moving one around probably forces others to refresh > as well). > > What could be nice is to profile rendering time as well (but, if your > first render time is included in the 10% of 170ms you quote, then > it is > probably fine). > > Would you like to try benchmarking rendering one ChronosManager > instance > when you have 30 instances opened / only one instance opened? > > > So from the looks of it , it looks like Morphic does not perform > well > > with loaded images and external files. > > This is a clear win if you cache those (i.e. have a LRU cache holding > forms and fonts, filled upon first load, reused over subsequent > loads). > > Thierry > > > > > > > On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 11:34 AM Thierry Goubier > > <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com <mailto:thierry.goubier@gmail.com> > <mailto:thierry.goubier@gmail.com > <mailto:thierry.goubier@gmail.com>>> wrote: > > > > Hi all, > > > > I would like to ask you, all of you, something significant > when doing > > GUI coding: > > > > Pay attention to performance! > > > > With the current state of our technology (Morphic, Bloc, > whatever comes > > next) your target should be one hundred milliseconds (100 > ms), for > > opening / redisplaying the widget. > > > > Why? > > > > - Because, in 10ms, Morphic can open and layout dozens of > Morphs on a > > low-end machine (1.4GHz Celeron). > > > > - Because most of you work on 3GHz+ i7 Macbook Pro (so, at > 10x the cpu > > performance of that said Celeron). > > > > - Because you are not to reproduce the past: that your > current tools are > > slow is no excuse. > > > > - Because you now have well designed core widgets (FT) that > behaves in > > O(1) and opens fully loaded in 10's of milliseconds > > > > So, profile and clean your code! Eliminate unneeded caches! > Clean your > > architectures! Avoid or mark slow code and bottlenecks! > > > > And bring numbers when you want to criticize the performance > of a > > subsystem... > > > > Thierry > > > >

Nov. 22, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] A plea for responsive coding

by stepharo

+100000 Stef > Hi all, > > I would like to ask you, all of you, something significant when doing > GUI coding: > > Pay attention to performance! > > With the current state of our technology (Morphic, Bloc, whatever > comes next) your target should be one hundred milliseconds (100 ms), > for opening / redisplaying the widget. > > Why? > > - Because, in 10ms, Morphic can open and layout dozens of Morphs on a > low-end machine (1.4GHz Celeron). > > - Because most of you work on 3GHz+ i7 Macbook Pro (so, at 10x the cpu > performance of that said Celeron). > > - Because you are not to reproduce the past: that your current tools > are slow is no excuse. > > - Because you now have well designed core widgets (FT) that behaves in > O(1) and opens fully loaded in 10's of milliseconds > > So, profile and clean your code! Eliminate unneeded caches! Clean your > architectures! Avoid or mark slow code and bottlenecks! > > And bring numbers when you want to criticize the performance of a > subsystem... > > Thierry > >

Nov. 22, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] Digest from slack to the mailing list?

by stepharo

Yes this would be good. People should understand that important discussions should be via the mailing-list. Emails are good because you can consume them the way you want. I simply cannot be connected all the time. So emails are good because I can process them when I decide. Slack is good for more interactive session around debugger and things like that. Stef Le 21/11/15 18:05, Stephan Eggermont a Ã©crit : > Should we have a digest from slack to a mailing list? > We are already losing messages > > Stephan > > >

Nov. 22, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] recompiling all classes and traits is slow (at least on windows)

by Alexandre Bergel

Wow, I did not know you can close and open source files. Everyday there is something to learn. Cheers, Alexandre > On Nov 22, 2015, at 8:16 AM, Max Leske <maxleske(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > If you only need it for yourself you could probably speed things up by doing > > Smalltalk closeSourceFiles. [ compileâ¦ ] ensure: [ Smalltalk openSourceFiles ]. > > That will prevent reads and writes from and to the changes / sources files. Of course, that doesnât solve the problem in general. > > Cheers, > Max > > >> On 21 Nov 2015, at 20:09, Nicolai Hess <nicolaihess(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> recompiling all classes -> ~ 2 minutes >> recompiling all traits -> ~ 13 minutes >> >> is there any way to recompile all without removing and adding all trait methods >> for trait users ? Because this touches the changes file (although recompiling >> shouldn't change the source) and touching the changes file for many methods >> is pretty slow on windows. >> >> >> nicolai > > -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

Nov. 22, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] Digest from slack to the mailing list?

by Stephan Eggermont

On 22/11/15 12:14, Max Leske wrote: > I donât think thatâs necessary. Important stuff will still be sent via mail and be documented in issues on fogbugz. Thatâs my personal feeling at least. I don't see that happening at all. We don't publish design notes (abstracts from design discussions) and we only track simple issues. Stephan

Nov. 22, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] Digest from slack to the mailing list?

by Stephan Eggermont

On 22/11/15 13:26, Marcus Denker wrote: > Honestly, who has the time to read all this? That's not the point. The importance is searchability. It is essential to be able to follow design discussions from 10-15 years ago to understand how to fix things now. That information needs to be openly available. Putting it all in a full text search engine with a web interface might work too. Stephan

Nov. 22, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] Digest from slack to the mailing list?

by Marcus Denker

Honestly, who has the time to read all this? I never read the old discussions that happened when I was off in Slack. (And I try to not read everything on this list, too). Just because if I would read everything, I would not have the time to actually *do* anything. Marcus > On 22 Nov 2015, at 08:37, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > I think its important to have, I have already learned a ton via Slack and I have marked several posts there are favorites so that I wont lose them . > > The Slack experiment, even though I have been very skeptical at first, has been a huge success and it can easily compete with the importance of the mailing list. Merging the two would be a huge win for our community. > > On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 7:06 PM Stephan Eggermont <stephan(a)stack.nl <mailto:stephan@stack.nl>> wrote: > Should we have a digest from slack to a mailing list? > We are already losing messages > > Stephan > >

Nov. 22, 2015