November 2015 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Rules

by stepharo

With the following (broken) definition printOn: aStream super printOn: aStream aStream nextPutAll: '(', faces printString , ')' I got this strange rule: Rewrite super messages to self messages when both refer to same method I do not get it and it looks really suspicious to me. Any suggestions? Stef

Nov. 22, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] A plea for responsive coding

by stepharo

You should relax a bit. We were trying to help. Morphic is slow and strange and we are working on new generation. Now profile a bit your application to see what you are doing may be you are redrawing too much or triggering something that is costly. So it depends what you are doing. the step method of all the morphs is invoked every refresh cycle so. Stef > really you ask me why I am complaining that loading a form from a 2kb > png image, AND I REPEAT , 2KB IMAGE ,for each morphic step brings a > whole GUI system to its knees with 5 instances ? > > I complain, which I did not complain by the way but your post inspires > me to complain a lot now, because tectonic plates find Pharo handling > of images so slow they decided to go out for coffee. > > I also complain because I live in 2015 where my main open source app , > blender can handle loading a 300 mb blend file in under a second. And > I consider Blender one of the least performant 3d apps out there. > Thats a file more 100.000 times larger than the pathetic small png i > am loading during stepping. > > And on top of that , is also my first try at creating something based > on png images in pharo and I am slapped in the face for daring to > deliver code that is not right. Sorry but you guys make no sense. > > > This is how I store pngs in a method --> > http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~peteruhnak/IconFactory > <http://smalltalkhub.com/#%21/%7Epeteruhnak/IconFactory> > > But I probably will abandon that solution too and rely on loading > external files directly since I dont like overcrowding my method > sources with image data. If that make things slower , so be it, I will > have to live with the idea that Pharo is not fast and try to work on > what I can do with it. I dont mind limitations, I do mind being told > that I complain when I clearly dont. > > > > On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 4:37 PM Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com > <mailto:tudor@tudorgirba.com>> wrote: > > Then why do you âcomplain" about the code being slow? :) > > Seriously, how do you store the PNG file in the method? Here is an > example of how to store the form of a PNG: > > form := PNGReadWriter formFromFileNamed: aPngFile. > iconName := aPngFile basenameWithoutExtension. > methodSource := > iconName , Character cr asString , > '^ self icons > at: #', iconName, > 'ifAbsentPut: [', > form storeString, > ']'. > targetClass class compile: methodSource classified: âiconsâ. > > This will compile the picture in a âiconNameâ method in a > âtargetClassâ. The code also relies on an âiconsâ getter in the > âtargetClassâ that should cache these forms. Like this, you only > load the form once. > > Is this enough for you? > > Cheers, > Doru > > > > On Nov 22, 2015, at 2:56 PM, Dimitris Chloupis > <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com <mailto:kilon.alios@gmail.com>> wrote: > > > > because making something work for me comes way before making > something work fast. > > > > On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 3:50 PM stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr > <mailto:stepharo@free.fr>> wrote: > > But why don't you manipulate Forms instead of PNGs. Converting > from PNGs to Forms should be done only once. > > > > Stef > > > > Le 22/11/15 11:53, Dimitris Chloupis a Ã©crit : > >> here is the tricky part , I am willing to bet that the slow > down happens because of the stepping of the seconds indicator. > >> > >> The one thing I forgot to mention is that I dont load my images > from external files, the images are already converted to method > sources , strings , with Peter's IconFactory library. Still the > PNGReader class tries to convert those string streams to forms and > is where most of the time is consumed. The reason I chose this > approach was in hope of a speed up so pharo does not waste time > opening and closing files. > >> > >> In the stepping of the seconds indicator I recreate the form in > each step , depending on the seconds. I could optomise that part > by having all images of the animation loaded into seperate forms > during initialisation and just use the reference of the correct > form during stepping that should speed things up a lot. > >> > >> Overall 170ms for opening that GUI is not so bad for a dynamic > GC language. Taking into account that this is mostly pharo code , > unlike python that it would be using a C lib to speed things up. I > am a happy Morphic customer :) > >> > >> On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 12:39 PM Thierry Goubier > <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com <mailto:thierry.goubier@gmail.com>> wrote: > >> Le 22/11/2015 11:27, Dimitris Chloupis a Ã©crit : > >> > tried with ChronosManager > >> > > >> > [ ChronosManager open ] bench > >> > > >> > 5.6 per second > >> > > >> > it opened around 30 instances and Morphic was crawling. > >> > > >> > I profiled it and it reports that it spends a total 170ms > which is > >> > consistent with bench. Around 50ms is spent only for loading > the image > >> > of the secondary panel and from what I have seen loading the > images and > >> > the font accounts around 90% of the time spent and then rest > 10% is > >> > actually morphic + logic. > >> > >> If I understand you well, what you have is: > >> > >> - ChronosManager takes 170ms to open, including external resources > >> loading time (which is SSD/HD dependent). > >> > >> - The whole world performance degrades with many ChronosManager > >> instances loaded? (Moving one around probably forces others to > refresh > >> as well). > >> > >> What could be nice is to profile rendering time as well (but, > if your > >> first render time is included in the 10% of 170ms you quote, > then it is > >> probably fine). > >> > >> Would you like to try benchmarking rendering one ChronosManager > instance > >> when you have 30 instances opened / only one instance opened? > >> > >> > So from the looks of it , it looks like Morphic does not > perform well > >> > with loaded images and external files. > >> > >> This is a clear win if you cache those (i.e. have a LRU cache > holding > >> forms and fonts, filled upon first load, reused over subsequent > loads). > >> > >> Thierry > >> > >> > > >> > > >> > On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 11:34 AM Thierry Goubier > >> > <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com <mailto:thierry.goubier@gmail.com> > <mailto:thierry.goubier@gmail.com > <mailto:thierry.goubier@gmail.com>>> wrote: > >> > > >> > Hi all, > >> > > >> > I would like to ask you, all of you, something > significant when doing > >> > GUI coding: > >> > > >> > Pay attention to performance! > >> > > >> > With the current state of our technology (Morphic, Bloc, > whatever comes > >> > next) your target should be one hundred milliseconds (100 > ms), for > >> > opening / redisplaying the widget. > >> > > >> > Why? > >> > > >> > - Because, in 10ms, Morphic can open and layout dozens of > Morphs on a > >> > low-end machine (1.4GHz Celeron). > >> > > >> > - Because most of you work on 3GHz+ i7 Macbook Pro (so, > at 10x the cpu > >> > performance of that said Celeron). > >> > > >> > - Because you are not to reproduce the past: that your > current tools are > >> > slow is no excuse. > >> > > >> > - Because you now have well designed core widgets (FT) > that behaves in > >> > O(1) and opens fully loaded in 10's of milliseconds > >> > > >> > So, profile and clean your code! Eliminate unneeded > caches! Clean your > >> > architectures! Avoid or mark slow code and bottlenecks! > >> > > >> > And bring numbers when you want to criticize the > performance of a > >> > subsystem... > >> > > >> > Thierry > >> > > >> > >> > > > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com <http://www.tudorgirba.com> > > "Every now and then stop and ask yourself if the war you're > fighting is the right one." > > > >

Nov. 22, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] A plea for responsive coding

by Dimitris Chloupis

really you ask me why I am complaining that loading a form from a 2kb png image, AND I REPEAT , 2KB IMAGE ,for each morphic step brings a whole GUI system to its knees with 5 instances ? I complain, which I did not complain by the way but your post inspires me to complain a lot now, because tectonic plates find Pharo handling of images so slow they decided to go out for coffee. I also complain because I live in 2015 where my main open source app , blender can handle loading a 300 mb blend file in under a second. And I consider Blender one of the least performant 3d apps out there. Thats a file more 100.000 times larger than the pathetic small png i am loading during stepping. And on top of that , is also my first try at creating something based on png images in pharo and I am slapped in the face for daring to deliver code that is not right. Sorry but you guys make no sense. This is how I store pngs in a method --> http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~peteruhnak/IconFactory But I probably will abandon that solution too and rely on loading external files directly since I dont like overcrowding my method sources with image data. If that make things slower , so be it, I will have to live with the idea that Pharo is not fast and try to work on what I can do with it. I dont mind limitations, I do mind being told that I complain when I clearly dont. On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 4:37 PM Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: > Then why do you âcomplain" about the code being slow? :) > > Seriously, how do you store the PNG file in the method? Here is an example > of how to store the form of a PNG: > > form := PNGReadWriter formFromFileNamed: aPngFile. > iconName := aPngFile basenameWithoutExtension. > methodSource := > iconName , Character cr asString , > '^ self icons > at: #', iconName, > 'ifAbsentPut: [', > form storeString, > ']'. > targetClass class compile: methodSource classified: âiconsâ. > > This will compile the picture in a âiconNameâ method in a âtargetClassâ. > The code also relies on an âiconsâ getter in the âtargetClassâ that should > cache these forms. Like this, you only load the form once. > > Is this enough for you? > > Cheers, > Doru > > > > On Nov 22, 2015, at 2:56 PM, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > because making something work for me comes way before making something > work fast. > > > > On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 3:50 PM stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: > > But why don't you manipulate Forms instead of PNGs. Converting from PNGs > to Forms should be done only once. > > > > Stef > > > > Le 22/11/15 11:53, Dimitris Chloupis a Ã©crit : > >> here is the tricky part , I am willing to bet that the slow down > happens because of the stepping of the seconds indicator. > >> > >> The one thing I forgot to mention is that I dont load my images from > external files, the images are already converted to method sources , > strings , with Peter's IconFactory library. Still the PNGReader class tries > to convert those string streams to forms and is where most of the time is > consumed. The reason I chose this approach was in hope of a speed up so > pharo does not waste time opening and closing files. > >> > >> In the stepping of the seconds indicator I recreate the form in each > step , depending on the seconds. I could optomise that part by having all > images of the animation loaded into seperate forms during initialisation > and just use the reference of the correct form during stepping that should > speed things up a lot. > >> > >> Overall 170ms for opening that GUI is not so bad for a dynamic GC > language. Taking into account that this is mostly pharo code , unlike > python that it would be using a C lib to speed things up. I am a happy > Morphic customer :) > >> > >> On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 12:39 PM Thierry Goubier < > thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> Le 22/11/2015 11:27, Dimitris Chloupis a Ã©crit : > >> > tried with ChronosManager > >> > > >> > [ ChronosManager open ] bench > >> > > >> > 5.6 per second > >> > > >> > it opened around 30 instances and Morphic was crawling. > >> > > >> > I profiled it and it reports that it spends a total 170ms which is > >> > consistent with bench. Around 50ms is spent only for loading the image > >> > of the secondary panel and from what I have seen loading the images > and > >> > the font accounts around 90% of the time spent and then rest 10% is > >> > actually morphic + logic. > >> > >> If I understand you well, what you have is: > >> > >> - ChronosManager takes 170ms to open, including external resources > >> loading time (which is SSD/HD dependent). > >> > >> - The whole world performance degrades with many ChronosManager > >> instances loaded? (Moving one around probably forces others to refresh > >> as well). > >> > >> What could be nice is to profile rendering time as well (but, if your > >> first render time is included in the 10% of 170ms you quote, then it is > >> probably fine). > >> > >> Would you like to try benchmarking rendering one ChronosManager instance > >> when you have 30 instances opened / only one instance opened? > >> > >> > So from the looks of it , it looks like Morphic does not perform well > >> > with loaded images and external files. > >> > >> This is a clear win if you cache those (i.e. have a LRU cache holding > >> forms and fonts, filled upon first load, reused over subsequent loads). > >> > >> Thierry > >> > >> > > >> > > >> > On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 11:34 AM Thierry Goubier > >> > <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com <mailto:thierry.goubier@gmail.com>> wrote: > >> > > >> > Hi all, > >> > > >> > I would like to ask you, all of you, something significant when > doing > >> > GUI coding: > >> > > >> > Pay attention to performance! > >> > > >> > With the current state of our technology (Morphic, Bloc, whatever > comes > >> > next) your target should be one hundred milliseconds (100 ms), for > >> > opening / redisplaying the widget. > >> > > >> > Why? > >> > > >> > - Because, in 10ms, Morphic can open and layout dozens of Morphs > on a > >> > low-end machine (1.4GHz Celeron). > >> > > >> > - Because most of you work on 3GHz+ i7 Macbook Pro (so, at 10x > the cpu > >> > performance of that said Celeron). > >> > > >> > - Because you are not to reproduce the past: that your current > tools are > >> > slow is no excuse. > >> > > >> > - Because you now have well designed core widgets (FT) that > behaves in > >> > O(1) and opens fully loaded in 10's of milliseconds > >> > > >> > So, profile and clean your code! Eliminate unneeded caches! Clean > your > >> > architectures! Avoid or mark slow code and bottlenecks! > >> > > >> > And bring numbers when you want to criticize the performance of a > >> > subsystem... > >> > > >> > Thierry > >> > > >> > >> > > > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "Every now and then stop and ask yourself if the war you're fighting is > the right one." > > > > >

Nov. 22, 2015

[pharo-project/pharo-core]

by GitHub

Branch: refs/tags/50458 Home: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-core

Nov. 22, 2015

[pharo-project/pharo-core] b27de6: 50458

by GitHub

Branch: refs/heads/5.0 Home: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-core Commit: b27de6aabe954041aca71fc9aeadba1fddcdde66 https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-core/commit/b27de6aabe954041aca71fc9… Author: Jenkins Build Server <board(a)pharo-project.org> Date: 2015-11-22 (Sun, 22 Nov 2015) Changed paths: M Collections-Sequenceable.package/OrderedDictionary.class/instance/comparing/=.st A Collections-Tests.package/DictionaryTest.class/instance/requirements/otherDictionaryClasses.st A Collections-Tests.package/DictionaryTest.class/instance/test - comparing/testOtherDictionaryEquality.st A Collections-Tests.package/OrderedDictionaryTest.class/instance/accessing/otherOrderedDictionaryClasses.st M Collections-Tests.package/OrderedDictionaryTest.class/instance/tests/testEqualsDictionary.st A Collections-Tests.package/OrderedDictionaryTest.class/instance/tests/testEqualsOtherOrderedDictionaries.st M Collections-Unordered.package/Dictionary.class/instance/comparing/=.st M Collections-Unordered.package/SmallDictionary.class/instance/comparing/=.st R ScriptLoader50.package/ScriptLoader.class/instance/pharo - scripts/script50457.st A ScriptLoader50.package/ScriptLoader.class/instance/pharo - scripts/script50458.st R ScriptLoader50.package/ScriptLoader.class/instance/pharo - updates/update50457.st A ScriptLoader50.package/ScriptLoader.class/instance/pharo - updates/update50458.st M ScriptLoader50.package/ScriptLoader.class/instance/public/commentForCurrentUpdate.st Log Message: ----------- 50458 16760 Dictionary>>= breaks when comparing identity and non-identity dictionaries https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/16760 http://files.pharo.org/image/50/50458.zip

Nov. 22, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] A plea for responsive coding

by Tudor Girba

Then why do you âcomplain" about the code being slow? :) Seriously, how do you store the PNG file in the method? Here is an example of how to store the form of a PNG: form := PNGReadWriter formFromFileNamed: aPngFile. iconName := aPngFile basenameWithoutExtension. methodSource := iconName , Character cr asString , '^ self icons at: #', iconName, 'ifAbsentPut: [', form storeString, ']'. targetClass class compile: methodSource classified: âiconsâ. This will compile the picture in a âiconNameâ method in a âtargetClassâ. The code also relies on an âiconsâ getter in the âtargetClassâ that should cache these forms. Like this, you only load the form once. Is this enough for you? Cheers, Doru > On Nov 22, 2015, at 2:56 PM, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > because making something work for me comes way before making something work fast. > > On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 3:50 PM stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: > But why don't you manipulate Forms instead of PNGs. Converting from PNGs to Forms should be done only once. > > Stef > > Le 22/11/15 11:53, Dimitris Chloupis a Ã©crit : >> here is the tricky part , I am willing to bet that the slow down happens because of the stepping of the seconds indicator. >> >> The one thing I forgot to mention is that I dont load my images from external files, the images are already converted to method sources , strings , with Peter's IconFactory library. Still the PNGReader class tries to convert those string streams to forms and is where most of the time is consumed. The reason I chose this approach was in hope of a speed up so pharo does not waste time opening and closing files. >> >> In the stepping of the seconds indicator I recreate the form in each step , depending on the seconds. I could optomise that part by having all images of the animation loaded into seperate forms during initialisation and just use the reference of the correct form during stepping that should speed things up a lot. >> >> Overall 170ms for opening that GUI is not so bad for a dynamic GC language. Taking into account that this is mostly pharo code , unlike python that it would be using a C lib to speed things up. I am a happy Morphic customer :) >> >> On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 12:39 PM Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> Le 22/11/2015 11:27, Dimitris Chloupis a Ã©crit : >> > tried with ChronosManager >> > >> > [ ChronosManager open ] bench >> > >> > 5.6 per second >> > >> > it opened around 30 instances and Morphic was crawling. >> > >> > I profiled it and it reports that it spends a total 170ms which is >> > consistent with bench. Around 50ms is spent only for loading the image >> > of the secondary panel and from what I have seen loading the images and >> > the font accounts around 90% of the time spent and then rest 10% is >> > actually morphic + logic. >> >> If I understand you well, what you have is: >> >> - ChronosManager takes 170ms to open, including external resources >> loading time (which is SSD/HD dependent). >> >> - The whole world performance degrades with many ChronosManager >> instances loaded? (Moving one around probably forces others to refresh >> as well). >> >> What could be nice is to profile rendering time as well (but, if your >> first render time is included in the 10% of 170ms you quote, then it is >> probably fine). >> >> Would you like to try benchmarking rendering one ChronosManager instance >> when you have 30 instances opened / only one instance opened? >> >> > So from the looks of it , it looks like Morphic does not perform well >> > with loaded images and external files. >> >> This is a clear win if you cache those (i.e. have a LRU cache holding >> forms and fonts, filled upon first load, reused over subsequent loads). >> >> Thierry >> >> > >> > >> > On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 11:34 AM Thierry Goubier >> > <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com <mailto:thierry.goubier@gmail.com>> wrote: >> > >> > Hi all, >> > >> > I would like to ask you, all of you, something significant when doing >> > GUI coding: >> > >> > Pay attention to performance! >> > >> > With the current state of our technology (Morphic, Bloc, whatever comes >> > next) your target should be one hundred milliseconds (100 ms), for >> > opening / redisplaying the widget. >> > >> > Why? >> > >> > - Because, in 10ms, Morphic can open and layout dozens of Morphs on a >> > low-end machine (1.4GHz Celeron). >> > >> > - Because most of you work on 3GHz+ i7 Macbook Pro (so, at 10x the cpu >> > performance of that said Celeron). >> > >> > - Because you are not to reproduce the past: that your current tools are >> > slow is no excuse. >> > >> > - Because you now have well designed core widgets (FT) that behaves in >> > O(1) and opens fully loaded in 10's of milliseconds >> > >> > So, profile and clean your code! Eliminate unneeded caches! Clean your >> > architectures! Avoid or mark slow code and bottlenecks! >> > >> > And bring numbers when you want to criticize the performance of a >> > subsystem... >> > >> > Thierry >> > >> >> > -- www.tudorgirba.com "Every now and then stop and ask yourself if the war you're fighting is the right one."

Nov. 22, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] A plea for responsive coding

by Dimitris Chloupis

sorry Stef I dont understand what you trying to say. As I already said I am not even using PNGs, they are converted to stream strings that then are converted to forms. By the time my objects are initialised those images are already stream strings and during initialisation are converted to forms that are then are just used by the GUI. During render time I just reference those forms. The only exception was the seconds timer that i made it create a new form on each morphic step because at the time I cared only to make it work and I was not aware that it could bring down Morphic with multiple instances of it. The tool I am creating however is not meant to be run in multiple instances and I plan to make multiple timers managed by a single GUI since I am not a fan of doing GUI the traditional ways of multiple windows hell which is also a pharo syndrome. Bottom line is that at the time I released ChronosManager v0.1 I did not notice any slow downs. V0.2 will contain this fix. And remember you were the one that asked me why I did not named the first version, 1 , now you know :D On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 4:24 PM stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: > This is not a point to make thing fast this is make things right :) > PNG are not graphical pharo objects, only forms. > > Stef > > > Le 22/11/15 14:56, Dimitris Chloupis a Ã©crit : > > because making something work for me comes way before making something > work fast. > > On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 3:50 PM stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: > >> But why don't you manipulate Forms instead of PNGs. Converting from PNGs >> to Forms should be done only once. >> >> Stef >> >> Le 22/11/15 11:53, Dimitris Chloupis a Ã©crit : >> >> here is the tricky part , I am willing to bet that the slow down happens >> because of the stepping of the seconds indicator. >> >> The one thing I forgot to mention is that I dont load my images from >> external files, the images are already converted to method sources , >> strings , with Peter's IconFactory library. Still the PNGReader class tries >> to convert those string streams to forms and is where most of the time is >> consumed. The reason I chose this approach was in hope of a speed up so >> pharo does not waste time opening and closing files. >> >> In the stepping of the seconds indicator I recreate the form in each step >> , depending on the seconds. I could optomise that part by having all images >> of the animation loaded into seperate forms during initialisation and just >> use the reference of the correct form during stepping that should speed >> things up a lot. >> >> Overall 170ms for opening that GUI is not so bad for a dynamic GC >> language. Taking into account that this is mostly pharo code , unlike >> python that it would be using a C lib to speed things up. I am a happy >> Morphic customer :) >> >> On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 12:39 PM Thierry Goubier < >> thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Le 22/11/2015 11:27, Dimitris Chloupis a Ã©crit : >>> > tried with ChronosManager >>> > >>> > [ ChronosManager open ] bench >>> > >>> > 5.6 per second >>> > >>> > it opened around 30 instances and Morphic was crawling. >>> > >>> > I profiled it and it reports that it spends a total 170ms which is >>> > consistent with bench. Around 50ms is spent only for loading the image >>> > of the secondary panel and from what I have seen loading the images and >>> > the font accounts around 90% of the time spent and then rest 10% is >>> > actually morphic + logic. >>> >>> If I understand you well, what you have is: >>> >>> - ChronosManager takes 170ms to open, including external resources >>> loading time (which is SSD/HD dependent). >>> >>> - The whole world performance degrades with many ChronosManager >>> instances loaded? (Moving one around probably forces others to refresh >>> as well). >>> >>> What could be nice is to profile rendering time as well (but, if your >>> first render time is included in the 10% of 170ms you quote, then it is >>> probably fine). >>> >>> Would you like to try benchmarking rendering one ChronosManager instance >>> when you have 30 instances opened / only one instance opened? >>> >>> > So from the looks of it , it looks like Morphic does not perform well >>> > with loaded images and external files. >>> >>> This is a clear win if you cache those (i.e. have a LRU cache holding >>> forms and fonts, filled upon first load, reused over subsequent loads). >>> >>> Thierry >>> >>> > >>> > >>> > On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 11:34 AM Thierry Goubier >>> > <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com <mailto:thierry.goubier@gmail.com>> wrote: >>> > >>> > Hi all, >>> > >>> > I would like to ask you, all of you, something significant when >>> doing >>> > GUI coding: >>> > >>> > Pay attention to performance! >>> > >>> > With the current state of our technology (Morphic, Bloc, whatever >>> comes >>> > next) your target should be one hundred milliseconds (100 ms), for >>> > opening / redisplaying the widget. >>> > >>> > Why? >>> > >>> > - Because, in 10ms, Morphic can open and layout dozens of Morphs >>> on a >>> > low-end machine (1.4GHz Celeron). >>> > >>> > - Because most of you work on 3GHz+ i7 Macbook Pro (so, at 10x the >>> cpu >>> > performance of that said Celeron). >>> > >>> > - Because you are not to reproduce the past: that your current >>> tools are >>> > slow is no excuse. >>> > >>> > - Because you now have well designed core widgets (FT) that >>> behaves in >>> > O(1) and opens fully loaded in 10's of milliseconds >>> > >>> > So, profile and clean your code! Eliminate unneeded caches! Clean >>> your >>> > architectures! Avoid or mark slow code and bottlenecks! >>> > >>> > And bring numbers when you want to criticize the performance of a >>> > subsystem... >>> > >>> > Thierry >>> > >>> >>> >>> >> >

Nov. 22, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] A plea for responsive coding

by stepharo

This is not a point to make thing fast this is make things right :) PNG are not graphical pharo objects, only forms. Stef Le 22/11/15 14:56, Dimitris Chloupis a Ã©crit : > because making something work for me comes way before making something > work fast. > > On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 3:50 PM stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr > <mailto:stepharo@free.fr>> wrote: > > But why don't you manipulate Forms instead of PNGs. Converting > from PNGs to Forms should be done only once. > > Stef > > Le 22/11/15 11:53, Dimitris Chloupis a Ã©crit : >> here is the tricky part , I am willing to bet that the slow down >> happens because of the stepping of the seconds indicator. >> >> The one thing I forgot to mention is that I dont load my images >> from external files, the images are already converted to method >> sources , strings , with Peter's IconFactory library. Still the >> PNGReader class tries to convert those string streams to forms >> and is where most of the time is consumed. The reason I chose >> this approach was in hope of a speed up so pharo does not waste >> time opening and closing files. >> >> In the stepping of the seconds indicator I recreate the form in >> each step , depending on the seconds. I could optomise that part >> by having all images of the animation loaded into seperate forms >> during initialisation and just use the reference of the correct >> form during stepping that should speed things up a lot. >> >> Overall 170ms for opening that GUI is not so bad for a dynamic GC >> language. Taking into account that this is mostly pharo code , >> unlike python that it would be using a C lib to speed things up. >> I am a happy Morphic customer :) >> >> On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 12:39 PM Thierry Goubier >> <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com <mailto:thierry.goubier@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> Le 22/11/2015 11:27, Dimitris Chloupis a Ã©crit : >> > tried with ChronosManager >> > >> > [ ChronosManager open ] bench >> > >> > 5.6 per second >> > >> > it opened around 30 instances and Morphic was crawling. >> > >> > I profiled it and it reports that it spends a total 170ms >> which is >> > consistent with bench. Around 50ms is spent only for >> loading the image >> > of the secondary panel and from what I have seen loading >> the images and >> > the font accounts around 90% of the time spent and then >> rest 10% is >> > actually morphic + logic. >> >> If I understand you well, what you have is: >> >> - ChronosManager takes 170ms to open, including external >> resources >> loading time (which is SSD/HD dependent). >> >> - The whole world performance degrades with many ChronosManager >> instances loaded? (Moving one around probably forces others >> to refresh >> as well). >> >> What could be nice is to profile rendering time as well (but, >> if your >> first render time is included in the 10% of 170ms you quote, >> then it is >> probably fine). >> >> Would you like to try benchmarking rendering one >> ChronosManager instance >> when you have 30 instances opened / only one instance opened? >> >> > So from the looks of it , it looks like Morphic does not >> perform well >> > with loaded images and external files. >> >> This is a clear win if you cache those (i.e. have a LRU cache >> holding >> forms and fonts, filled upon first load, reused over >> subsequent loads). >> >> Thierry >> >> > >> > >> > On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 11:34 AM Thierry Goubier >> > <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com >> <mailto:thierry.goubier@gmail.com> >> <mailto:thierry.goubier@gmail.com >> <mailto:thierry.goubier@gmail.com>>> wrote: >> > >> > Hi all, >> > >> > I would like to ask you, all of you, something >> significant when doing >> > GUI coding: >> > >> > Pay attention to performance! >> > >> > With the current state of our technology (Morphic, >> Bloc, whatever comes >> > next) your target should be one hundred milliseconds >> (100 ms), for >> > opening / redisplaying the widget. >> > >> > Why? >> > >> > - Because, in 10ms, Morphic can open and layout dozens >> of Morphs on a >> > low-end machine (1.4GHz Celeron). >> > >> > - Because most of you work on 3GHz+ i7 Macbook Pro (so, >> at 10x the cpu >> > performance of that said Celeron). >> > >> > - Because you are not to reproduce the past: that your >> current tools are >> > slow is no excuse. >> > >> > - Because you now have well designed core widgets (FT) >> that behaves in >> > O(1) and opens fully loaded in 10's of milliseconds >> > >> > So, profile and clean your code! Eliminate unneeded >> caches! Clean your >> > architectures! Avoid or mark slow code and bottlenecks! >> > >> > And bring numbers when you want to criticize the >> performance of a >> > subsystem... >> > >> > Thierry >> > >> >> >

Nov. 22, 2015

R: A plea for responsive coding

by Lorenzo Schiavina

+1 Lorenzo Da: Pharo-dev [mailto:pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org] Per conto di Dimitris Chloupis Inviato: domenica 22 novembre 2015 14:56 A: Pharo Development List Oggetto: Re: [Pharo-dev] A plea for responsive coding because making something work for me comes way before making something work fast. On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 3:50 PM stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: But why don't you manipulate Forms instead of PNGs. Converting from PNGs to Forms should be done only once. Stef Le 22/11/15 11:53, Dimitris Chloupis a Ã©crit : here is the tricky part , I am willing to bet that the slow down happens because of the stepping of the seconds indicator. The one thing I forgot to mention is that I dont load my images from external files, the images are already converted to method sources , strings , with Peter's IconFactory library. Still the PNGReader class tries to convert those string streams to forms and is where most of the time is consumed. The reason I chose this approach was in hope of a speed up so pharo does not waste time opening and closing files. In the stepping of the seconds indicator I recreate the form in each step , depending on the seconds. I could optomise that part by having all images of the animation loaded into seperate forms during initialisation and just use the reference of the correct form during stepping that should speed things up a lot. Overall 170ms for opening that GUI is not so bad for a dynamic GC language. Taking into account that this is mostly pharo code , unlike python that it would be using a C lib to speed things up. I am a happy Morphic customer :) On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 12:39 PM Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com> wrote: Le 22/11/2015 11:27, Dimitris Chloupis a Ã©crit : > tried with ChronosManager > > [ ChronosManager open ] bench > > 5.6 per second > > it opened around 30 instances and Morphic was crawling. > > I profiled it and it reports that it spends a total 170ms which is > consistent with bench. Around 50ms is spent only for loading the image > of the secondary panel and from what I have seen loading the images and > the font accounts around 90% of the time spent and then rest 10% is > actually morphic + logic. If I understand you well, what you have is: - ChronosManager takes 170ms to open, including external resources loading time (which is SSD/HD dependent). - The whole world performance degrades with many ChronosManager instances loaded? (Moving one around probably forces others to refresh as well). What could be nice is to profile rendering time as well (but, if your first render time is included in the 10% of 170ms you quote, then it is probably fine). Would you like to try benchmarking rendering one ChronosManager instance when you have 30 instances opened / only one instance opened? > So from the looks of it , it looks like Morphic does not perform well > with loaded images and external files. This is a clear win if you cache those (i.e. have a LRU cache holding forms and fonts, filled upon first load, reused over subsequent loads). Thierry > > > On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 11:34 AM Thierry Goubier > <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com <mailto:thierry.goubier@gmail.com>> wrote: > > Hi all, > > I would like to ask you, all of you, something significant when doing > GUI coding: > > Pay attention to performance! > > With the current state of our technology (Morphic, Bloc, whatever comes > next) your target should be one hundred milliseconds (100 ms), for > opening / redisplaying the widget. > > Why? > > - Because, in 10ms, Morphic can open and layout dozens of Morphs on a > low-end machine (1.4GHz Celeron). > > - Because most of you work on 3GHz+ i7 Macbook Pro (so, at 10x the cpu > performance of that said Celeron). > > - Because you are not to reproduce the past: that your current tools are > slow is no excuse. > > - Because you now have well designed core widgets (FT) that behaves in > O(1) and opens fully loaded in 10's of milliseconds > > So, profile and clean your code! Eliminate unneeded caches! Clean your > architectures! Avoid or mark slow code and bottlenecks! > > And bring numbers when you want to criticize the performance of a > subsystem... > > Thierry >

Nov. 22, 2015

[pharo-project/pharo-core]

by GitHub

Branch: refs/tags/50457 Home: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-core

Nov. 22, 2015