November 2015 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] red banner and links with safari?

by Peter UhnÃ¡k

> The question now is: what do we need to fix to make it work? â (or just open console in your favorite browser (chrome)) Peter

Nov. 22, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] A plea for responsive coding

by Dimitris Chloupis

Yeah I was joking too, well I was semi serious more like it. Of course I care about performance, but I am willing to be forgiving with Pharo , everything has its own issues and doing graphics with Pharo beats doing graphics with C/C++ anyday. Debugging C++ code kills my inner child. Yes I think I will be fine, we were just discussing with Stephan on slack about slow down he found with Checkboxmorph he also thought that the reference of the forms (on ,off, pressed , depressed) was slow for some reason but I found out that it was the initialisation of the checkboxmoprh that it was much slower , reference the morphs gave me 2 million request per second. So referencing the forms is blazing fast. So it looks like the slow down is mainly creating the form, as soon as creating the form Morphic is very fast. So its not that bad and I am sure I will be fine. But I promise to keep digging. Morphic has this hot and cold attitude , that when you expect it to be slow is blazzing fast and when you expect it to be fast its hog slow. I think also that most likely PNGReader could be optimised to be faster, but for now thats outside my area of expertise. On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 7:16 PM Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: > Hi, > > I was making a joke given the way the discussion turned out: > - you said that something was slow > - then Stef asked you if you are caching the forms instead of PNGs > - then you said you do not > - then Stef asked you why not > - then you said that you were not focused on making things fast > > Anyway, maybe it was funny just for me :). > > Morph is rather slow indeed, but displaying a handful of PNGs should not > kill it either. But, it seems you narrowed the problem down. In my little > snippet, I provided a cache. By the look of it, I think that should address > that problem. Could you let us know if this works out for you? > > Cheers, > Doru > > > > On Nov 22, 2015, at 4:24 PM, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > I realize you trying to help, and thank you very much. Nothing I have > done would be possible without your help. But also you must realize I am > not you and not as familiar with Pharo as you are. Also when I say that I > do something that does not mean I ignore your advice. At the moment I was > not aware of the problem , now that I am aware I have profiled it , I have > isolated the exact method (is in the PNGReader class) and I have already a > fix in mind, I even created an issue not to forget about it > > > > https://github.com/kilon/ChronosManager/issues/15 > > > > all these have happened way before your first replied to me. > > > > I am very relaxed, as a matter of fact I am quite happy with my pharo > experience so far. I was never naive enough to expect Morphic to be fast, > there is a reason why graphics code is predominately coded in C/C++ and why > I have been an active supporter of SDL graphics support for Pharo in the > past. > > > > I am willing to learn but those things take time. And my reply was a bit > on the comic side if that has not been obvious so far ;) > > > > > > > > On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 5:13 PM stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: > > You should relax a bit. > > We were trying to help. > > Morphic is slow and strange and we are working on new generation. > > Now profile a bit your application to see what you are doing may be you > are redrawing too much or triggering something that is costly. > > So it depends what you are doing. the step method of all the morphs is > invoked every refresh cycle so. > > > > Stef > > > > > >> really you ask me why I am complaining that loading a form from a 2kb > png image, AND I REPEAT , 2KB IMAGE ,for each morphic step brings a whole > GUI system to its knees with 5 instances ? > >> > >> I complain, which I did not complain by the way but your post inspires > me to complain a lot now, because tectonic plates find Pharo handling of > images so slow they decided to go out for coffee. > >> > >> I also complain because I live in 2015 where my main open source app , > blender can handle loading a 300 mb blend file in under a second. And I > consider Blender one of the least performant 3d apps out there. Thats a > file more 100.000 times larger than the pathetic small png i am loading > during stepping. > >> > >> And on top of that , is also my first try at creating something based > on png images in pharo and I am slapped in the face for daring to deliver > code that is not right. Sorry but you guys make no sense. > >> > >> > >> This is how I store pngs in a method --> > http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~peteruhnak/IconFactory > >> > >> But I probably will abandon that solution too and rely on loading > external files directly since I dont like overcrowding my method sources > with image data. If that make things slower , so be it, I will have to live > with the idea that Pharo is not fast and try to work on what I can do with > it. I dont mind limitations, I do mind being told that I complain when I > clearly dont. > >> > >> > >> > >> On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 4:37 PM Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> > wrote: > >> Then why do you âcomplain" about the code being slow? :) > >> > >> Seriously, how do you store the PNG file in the method? Here is an > example of how to store the form of a PNG: > >> > >> form := PNGReadWriter formFromFileNamed: aPngFile. > >> iconName := aPngFile basenameWithoutExtension. > >> methodSource := > >> iconName , Character cr asString , > >> '^ self icons > >> at: #', iconName, > >> 'ifAbsentPut: [', > >> form storeString, > >> ']'. > >> targetClass class compile: methodSource classified: âiconsâ. > >> > >> This will compile the picture in a âiconNameâ method in a > âtargetClassâ. The code also relies on an âiconsâ getter in the > âtargetClassâ that should cache these forms. Like this, you only load the > form once. > >> > >> Is this enough for you? > >> > >> Cheers, > >> Doru > >> > >> > >> > On Nov 22, 2015, at 2:56 PM, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > >> > > >> > because making something work for me comes way before making > something work fast. > >> > > >> > On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 3:50 PM stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: > >> > But why don't you manipulate Forms instead of PNGs. Converting from > PNGs to Forms should be done only once. > >> > > >> > Stef > >> > > >> > Le 22/11/15 11:53, Dimitris Chloupis a Ã©crit : > >> >> here is the tricky part , I am willing to bet that the slow down > happens because of the stepping of the seconds indicator. > >> >> > >> >> The one thing I forgot to mention is that I dont load my images from > external files, the images are already converted to method sources , > strings , with Peter's IconFactory library. Still the PNGReader class tries > to convert those string streams to forms and is where most of the time is > consumed. The reason I chose this approach was in hope of a speed up so > pharo does not waste time opening and closing files. > >> >> > >> >> In the stepping of the seconds indicator I recreate the form in each > step , depending on the seconds. I could optomise that part by having all > images of the animation loaded into seperate forms during initialisation > and just use the reference of the correct form during stepping that should > speed things up a lot. > >> >> > >> >> Overall 170ms for opening that GUI is not so bad for a dynamic GC > language. Taking into account that this is mostly pharo code , unlike > python that it would be using a C lib to speed things up. I am a happy > Morphic customer :) > >> >> > >> >> On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 12:39 PM Thierry Goubier < > thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> Le 22/11/2015 11:27, Dimitris Chloupis a Ã©crit : > >> >> > tried with ChronosManager > >> >> > > >> >> > [ ChronosManager open ] bench > >> >> > > >> >> > 5.6 per second > >> >> > > >> >> > it opened around 30 instances and Morphic was crawling. > >> >> > > >> >> > I profiled it and it reports that it spends a total 170ms which is > >> >> > consistent with bench. Around 50ms is spent only for loading the > image > >> >> > of the secondary panel and from what I have seen loading the > images and > >> >> > the font accounts around 90% of the time spent and then rest 10% is > >> >> > actually morphic + logic. > >> >> > >> >> If I understand you well, what you have is: > >> >> > >> >> - ChronosManager takes 170ms to open, including external resources > >> >> loading time (which is SSD/HD dependent). > >> >> > >> >> - The whole world performance degrades with many ChronosManager > >> >> instances loaded? (Moving one around probably forces others to > refresh > >> >> as well). > >> >> > >> >> What could be nice is to profile rendering time as well (but, if your > >> >> first render time is included in the 10% of 170ms you quote, then it > is > >> >> probably fine). > >> >> > >> >> Would you like to try benchmarking rendering one ChronosManager > instance > >> >> when you have 30 instances opened / only one instance opened? > >> >> > >> >> > So from the looks of it , it looks like Morphic does not perform > well > >> >> > with loaded images and external files. > >> >> > >> >> This is a clear win if you cache those (i.e. have a LRU cache holding > >> >> forms and fonts, filled upon first load, reused over subsequent > loads). > >> >> > >> >> Thierry > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 11:34 AM Thierry Goubier > >> >> > <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com <mailto:thierry.goubier@gmail.com>> > wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> > Hi all, > >> >> > > >> >> > I would like to ask you, all of you, something significant > when doing > >> >> > GUI coding: > >> >> > > >> >> > Pay attention to performance! > >> >> > > >> >> > With the current state of our technology (Morphic, Bloc, > whatever comes > >> >> > next) your target should be one hundred milliseconds (100 ms), > for > >> >> > opening / redisplaying the widget. > >> >> > > >> >> > Why? > >> >> > > >> >> > - Because, in 10ms, Morphic can open and layout dozens of > Morphs on a > >> >> > low-end machine (1.4GHz Celeron). > >> >> > > >> >> > - Because most of you work on 3GHz+ i7 Macbook Pro (so, at 10x > the cpu > >> >> > performance of that said Celeron). > >> >> > > >> >> > - Because you are not to reproduce the past: that your current > tools are > >> >> > slow is no excuse. > >> >> > > >> >> > - Because you now have well designed core widgets (FT) that > behaves in > >> >> > O(1) and opens fully loaded in 10's of milliseconds > >> >> > > >> >> > So, profile and clean your code! Eliminate unneeded caches! > Clean your > >> >> > architectures! Avoid or mark slow code and bottlenecks! > >> >> > > >> >> > And bring numbers when you want to criticize the performance > of a > >> >> > subsystem... > >> >> > > >> >> > Thierry > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >> > >> -- > >> www.tudorgirba.com > >> > >> "Every now and then stop and ask yourself if the war you're fighting is > the right one." > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "Presenting is storytelling." > > >

Nov. 22, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] A plea for responsive coding

by Tudor Girba

Hi, I was making a joke given the way the discussion turned out: - you said that something was slow - then Stef asked you if you are caching the forms instead of PNGs - then you said you do not - then Stef asked you why not - then you said that you were not focused on making things fast Anyway, maybe it was funny just for me :). Morph is rather slow indeed, but displaying a handful of PNGs should not kill it either. But, it seems you narrowed the problem down. In my little snippet, I provided a cache. By the look of it, I think that should address that problem. Could you let us know if this works out for you? Cheers, Doru > On Nov 22, 2015, at 4:24 PM, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > I realize you trying to help, and thank you very much. Nothing I have done would be possible without your help. But also you must realize I am not you and not as familiar with Pharo as you are. Also when I say that I do something that does not mean I ignore your advice. At the moment I was not aware of the problem , now that I am aware I have profiled it , I have isolated the exact method (is in the PNGReader class) and I have already a fix in mind, I even created an issue not to forget about it > > https://github.com/kilon/ChronosManager/issues/15 > > all these have happened way before your first replied to me. > > I am very relaxed, as a matter of fact I am quite happy with my pharo experience so far. I was never naive enough to expect Morphic to be fast, there is a reason why graphics code is predominately coded in C/C++ and why I have been an active supporter of SDL graphics support for Pharo in the past. > > I am willing to learn but those things take time. And my reply was a bit on the comic side if that has not been obvious so far ;) > > > > On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 5:13 PM stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: > You should relax a bit. > We were trying to help. > Morphic is slow and strange and we are working on new generation. > Now profile a bit your application to see what you are doing may be you are redrawing too much or triggering something that is costly. > So it depends what you are doing. the step method of all the morphs is invoked every refresh cycle so. > > Stef > > >> really you ask me why I am complaining that loading a form from a 2kb png image, AND I REPEAT , 2KB IMAGE ,for each morphic step brings a whole GUI system to its knees with 5 instances ? >> >> I complain, which I did not complain by the way but your post inspires me to complain a lot now, because tectonic plates find Pharo handling of images so slow they decided to go out for coffee. >> >> I also complain because I live in 2015 where my main open source app , blender can handle loading a 300 mb blend file in under a second. And I consider Blender one of the least performant 3d apps out there. Thats a file more 100.000 times larger than the pathetic small png i am loading during stepping. >> >> And on top of that , is also my first try at creating something based on png images in pharo and I am slapped in the face for daring to deliver code that is not right. Sorry but you guys make no sense. >> >> >> This is how I store pngs in a method --> http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~peteruhnak/IconFactory >> >> But I probably will abandon that solution too and rely on loading external files directly since I dont like overcrowding my method sources with image data. If that make things slower , so be it, I will have to live with the idea that Pharo is not fast and try to work on what I can do with it. I dont mind limitations, I do mind being told that I complain when I clearly dont. >> >> >> >> On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 4:37 PM Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: >> Then why do you âcomplain" about the code being slow? :) >> >> Seriously, how do you store the PNG file in the method? Here is an example of how to store the form of a PNG: >> >> form := PNGReadWriter formFromFileNamed: aPngFile. >> iconName := aPngFile basenameWithoutExtension. >> methodSource := >> iconName , Character cr asString , >> '^ self icons >> at: #', iconName, >> 'ifAbsentPut: [', >> form storeString, >> ']'. >> targetClass class compile: methodSource classified: âiconsâ. >> >> This will compile the picture in a âiconNameâ method in a âtargetClassâ. The code also relies on an âiconsâ getter in the âtargetClassâ that should cache these forms. Like this, you only load the form once. >> >> Is this enough for you? >> >> Cheers, >> Doru >> >> >> > On Nov 22, 2015, at 2:56 PM, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> > >> > because making something work for me comes way before making something work fast. >> > >> > On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 3:50 PM stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: >> > But why don't you manipulate Forms instead of PNGs. Converting from PNGs to Forms should be done only once. >> > >> > Stef >> > >> > Le 22/11/15 11:53, Dimitris Chloupis a Ã©crit : >> >> here is the tricky part , I am willing to bet that the slow down happens because of the stepping of the seconds indicator. >> >> >> >> The one thing I forgot to mention is that I dont load my images from external files, the images are already converted to method sources , strings , with Peter's IconFactory library. Still the PNGReader class tries to convert those string streams to forms and is where most of the time is consumed. The reason I chose this approach was in hope of a speed up so pharo does not waste time opening and closing files. >> >> >> >> In the stepping of the seconds indicator I recreate the form in each step , depending on the seconds. I could optomise that part by having all images of the animation loaded into seperate forms during initialisation and just use the reference of the correct form during stepping that should speed things up a lot. >> >> >> >> Overall 170ms for opening that GUI is not so bad for a dynamic GC language. Taking into account that this is mostly pharo code , unlike python that it would be using a C lib to speed things up. I am a happy Morphic customer :) >> >> >> >> On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 12:39 PM Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Le 22/11/2015 11:27, Dimitris Chloupis a Ã©crit : >> >> > tried with ChronosManager >> >> > >> >> > [ ChronosManager open ] bench >> >> > >> >> > 5.6 per second >> >> > >> >> > it opened around 30 instances and Morphic was crawling. >> >> > >> >> > I profiled it and it reports that it spends a total 170ms which is >> >> > consistent with bench. Around 50ms is spent only for loading the image >> >> > of the secondary panel and from what I have seen loading the images and >> >> > the font accounts around 90% of the time spent and then rest 10% is >> >> > actually morphic + logic. >> >> >> >> If I understand you well, what you have is: >> >> >> >> - ChronosManager takes 170ms to open, including external resources >> >> loading time (which is SSD/HD dependent). >> >> >> >> - The whole world performance degrades with many ChronosManager >> >> instances loaded? (Moving one around probably forces others to refresh >> >> as well). >> >> >> >> What could be nice is to profile rendering time as well (but, if your >> >> first render time is included in the 10% of 170ms you quote, then it is >> >> probably fine). >> >> >> >> Would you like to try benchmarking rendering one ChronosManager instance >> >> when you have 30 instances opened / only one instance opened? >> >> >> >> > So from the looks of it , it looks like Morphic does not perform well >> >> > with loaded images and external files. >> >> >> >> This is a clear win if you cache those (i.e. have a LRU cache holding >> >> forms and fonts, filled upon first load, reused over subsequent loads). >> >> >> >> Thierry >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 11:34 AM Thierry Goubier >> >> > <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com <mailto:thierry.goubier@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> > >> >> > Hi all, >> >> > >> >> > I would like to ask you, all of you, something significant when doing >> >> > GUI coding: >> >> > >> >> > Pay attention to performance! >> >> > >> >> > With the current state of our technology (Morphic, Bloc, whatever comes >> >> > next) your target should be one hundred milliseconds (100 ms), for >> >> > opening / redisplaying the widget. >> >> > >> >> > Why? >> >> > >> >> > - Because, in 10ms, Morphic can open and layout dozens of Morphs on a >> >> > low-end machine (1.4GHz Celeron). >> >> > >> >> > - Because most of you work on 3GHz+ i7 Macbook Pro (so, at 10x the cpu >> >> > performance of that said Celeron). >> >> > >> >> > - Because you are not to reproduce the past: that your current tools are >> >> > slow is no excuse. >> >> > >> >> > - Because you now have well designed core widgets (FT) that behaves in >> >> > O(1) and opens fully loaded in 10's of milliseconds >> >> > >> >> > So, profile and clean your code! Eliminate unneeded caches! Clean your >> >> > architectures! Avoid or mark slow code and bottlenecks! >> >> > >> >> > And bring numbers when you want to criticize the performance of a >> >> > subsystem... >> >> > >> >> > Thierry >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> -- >> www.tudorgirba.com >> >> "Every now and then stop and ask yourself if the war you're fighting is the right one." >> >> >> >> > -- www.tudorgirba.com "Presenting is storytelling."

Nov. 22, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] Rules

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

> On 22 Nov 2015, at 16:20, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: > > printOn: aStream > super printOn: aStream > aStream nextPutAll: '(', faces printString , ')' <being pedantic> And this is inefficient and mixes patterns. aStream << '('; print: faces; << ')' or aStream nextPut: $(; print: faces; nextPut: $) I think it is not a good idea to do string concatenation when you have to write to a stream anyway. </being pedantic>

Nov. 22, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] red banner and links with safari?

by Marcus Denker

Oh, This explains itâ¦ Before upping MacOS, I tuned on SSL via cloud flare (part of a âSSL everywhereâ initiativeâ¦). It seemed to work nicely. But now in the new Safari, it seems that they stop loading non-ssl resources when you request the main page via SSLâ¦ The question now is: what do we need to fix to make it work? > On 21 Nov 2015, at 12:26, Ben Coman <btc(a)openinworld.com> wrote: > > > > On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 10:22 PM, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr <mailto:stepharo@free.fr>> wrote: > > > I am on OSX Mavericks and the site looks fine in Safari, both http and https. > cheers -ben

Nov. 22, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] Does Pharo stores original author of methods?

by Marcus Denker

> On 20 Nov 2015, at 14:35, Denis Kudriashov <dionisiydk(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > 2015-11-20 14:21 GMT+01:00 Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr <mailto:marcus.denker@inria.fr>>: > epicea data is not stored forever. It is seasion based and the shipped image is > clean. > > But current source of this info is changes file (maybe sources). And I remember you planned to store current sources in image. And such information can be there too. > Maybe I miss something? The original author is not really that much of information. And storing it for every method in the image would take space. As I said: the whole idea of using a source revision control system is that you have the *complete* history available, but not wasting RAM. Marcus

Nov. 22, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] recompiling all classes and traits is slow (at least on windows)

by Marcus Denker

> On 22 Nov 2015, at 10:42, Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com> wrote: > > Wow, I did not know you can close and open source files. > Everyday there is something to learn. > It does not look like something you are supposed to knowâ¦ or do. There are multiple things that are just not well done: -> .sources and .chages file reading opens a new stream for each read/write (Martin has a fix for thatâ¦ we need to add it) -> recompile should not touch the changes file *at all*, even for traits. and of course, the whole .changes/.sources stuff should be rethought. It was great for 1978, but for today? Marcus

Nov. 22, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] Rules

by Marcus Denker

> On 22 Nov 2015, at 12:20, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: > > With the following (broken) definition > > > : aStream > super printOn: aStream > aStream nextPutAll: '(', faces printString , ')' > > I got this strange rule: > > Rewrite super messages to self messages when both refer to same method > > I do not get it and it looks really suspicious to me. > Any suggestions? The rule is meant to catch the case when when âsuperâ can be âselfâ as there is no #printOn: defined in the class. But here it looks like it is wrong: it would be an infinite loop. I think it could be related to this other bug: I have seen that the rules are not correctly updated when you add methods. (I wanted to add an issue for that but did not yet). E.g. I often get a âsends unkown selectorâ for self sends and then I check â> method is there, I just added it! So here this means that you added a new printOn:, the rules do not update, and it thinks that there is no printOn:. So the real bug is that added methods need to be taken into account by QA. Marcus

Nov. 22, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] Rules

by Max Leske

> On 22 Nov 2015, at 16:20, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: > > With the following (broken) definition > > > printOn: aStream > super printOn: aStream > aStream nextPutAll: '(', faces printString , â)' So, itâs broken because of the missing â.â. That means the message sent is #printOn:nextPutAll:. > > I got this strange rule: > > Rewrite super messages to self messages when both refer to same method Perfectly reasonable. The rule says that in this context it doesnât effectively make a difference wether you send #printOn:nextPutAll: to super *or* to self. *But* from an aesthetic point of view (at least) self is better than super. > > I do not get it and it looks really suspicious to me. > Any suggestions? I guess you were expecting âSends different superâ (at least I would). I think those two rules are complementary. But âSends different superâ would probably be enough to cover both cases. Not 100% sure though. Cheers, Max > Stef >

Nov. 22, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] A plea for responsive coding

by Dimitris Chloupis

I realize you trying to help, and thank you very much. Nothing I have done would be possible without your help. But also you must realize I am not you and not as familiar with Pharo as you are. Also when I say that I do something that does not mean I ignore your advice. At the moment I was not aware of the problem , now that I am aware I have profiled it , I have isolated the exact method (is in the PNGReader class) and I have already a fix in mind, I even created an issue not to forget about it https://github.com/kilon/ChronosManager/issues/15 all these have happened way before your first replied to me. I am very relaxed, as a matter of fact I am quite happy with my pharo experience so far. I was never naive enough to expect Morphic to be fast, there is a reason why graphics code is predominately coded in C/C++ and why I have been an active supporter of SDL graphics support for Pharo in the past. I am willing to learn but those things take time. And my reply was a bit on the comic side if that has not been obvious so far ;) On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 5:13 PM stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: > You should relax a bit. > We were trying to help. > Morphic is slow and strange and we are working on new generation. > Now profile a bit your application to see what you are doing may be you > are redrawing too much or triggering something that is costly. > So it depends what you are doing. the step method of all the morphs is > invoked every refresh cycle so. > > Stef > > > really you ask me why I am complaining that loading a form from a 2kb png > image, AND I REPEAT , 2KB IMAGE ,for each morphic step brings a whole GUI > system to its knees with 5 instances ? > > I complain, which I did not complain by the way but your post inspires me > to complain a lot now, because tectonic plates find Pharo handling of > images so slow they decided to go out for coffee. > > I also complain because I live in 2015 where my main open source app , > blender can handle loading a 300 mb blend file in under a second. And I > consider Blender one of the least performant 3d apps out there. Thats a > file more 100.000 times larger than the pathetic small png i am loading > during stepping. > > And on top of that , is also my first try at creating something based on > png images in pharo and I am slapped in the face for daring to deliver code > that is not right. Sorry but you guys make no sense. > > > This is how I store pngs in a method --> > http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~peteruhnak/IconFactory > > But I probably will abandon that solution too and rely on loading external > files directly since I dont like overcrowding my method sources with image > data. If that make things slower , so be it, I will have to live with the > idea that Pharo is not fast and try to work on what I can do with it. I > dont mind limitations, I do mind being told that I complain when I clearly > dont. > > > > On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 4:37 PM Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: > >> Then why do you âcomplain" about the code being slow? :) >> >> Seriously, how do you store the PNG file in the method? Here is an >> example of how to store the form of a PNG: >> >> form := PNGReadWriter formFromFileNamed: aPngFile. >> iconName := aPngFile basenameWithoutExtension. >> methodSource := >> iconName , Character cr asString , >> '^ self icons >> at: #', iconName, >> 'ifAbsentPut: [', >> form storeString, >> ']'. >> targetClass class compile: methodSource classified: âiconsâ. >> >> This will compile the picture in a âiconNameâ method in a âtargetClassâ. >> The code also relies on an âiconsâ getter in the âtargetClassâ that should >> cache these forms. Like this, you only load the form once. >> >> Is this enough for you? >> >> Cheers, >> Doru >> >> >> > On Nov 22, 2015, at 2:56 PM, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> >> wrote: >> > >> > because making something work for me comes way before making something >> work fast. >> > >> > On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 3:50 PM stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: >> > But why don't you manipulate Forms instead of PNGs. Converting from >> PNGs to Forms should be done only once. >> > >> > Stef >> > >> > Le 22/11/15 11:53, Dimitris Chloupis a Ã©crit : >> >> here is the tricky part , I am willing to bet that the slow down >> happens because of the stepping of the seconds indicator. >> >> >> >> The one thing I forgot to mention is that I dont load my images from >> external files, the images are already converted to method sources , >> strings , with Peter's IconFactory library. Still the PNGReader class tries >> to convert those string streams to forms and is where most of the time is >> consumed. The reason I chose this approach was in hope of a speed up so >> pharo does not waste time opening and closing files. >> >> >> >> In the stepping of the seconds indicator I recreate the form in each >> step , depending on the seconds. I could optomise that part by having all >> images of the animation loaded into seperate forms during initialisation >> and just use the reference of the correct form during stepping that should >> speed things up a lot. >> >> >> >> Overall 170ms for opening that GUI is not so bad for a dynamic GC >> language. Taking into account that this is mostly pharo code , unlike >> python that it would be using a C lib to speed things up. I am a happy >> Morphic customer :) >> >> >> >> On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 12:39 PM Thierry Goubier < >> thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Le 22/11/2015 11:27, Dimitris Chloupis a Ã©crit : >> >> > tried with ChronosManager >> >> > >> >> > [ ChronosManager open ] bench >> >> > >> >> > 5.6 per second >> >> > >> >> > it opened around 30 instances and Morphic was crawling. >> >> > >> >> > I profiled it and it reports that it spends a total 170ms which is >> >> > consistent with bench. Around 50ms is spent only for loading the >> image >> >> > of the secondary panel and from what I have seen loading the images >> and >> >> > the font accounts around 90% of the time spent and then rest 10% is >> >> > actually morphic + logic. >> >> >> >> If I understand you well, what you have is: >> >> >> >> - ChronosManager takes 170ms to open, including external resources >> >> loading time (which is SSD/HD dependent). >> >> >> >> - The whole world performance degrades with many ChronosManager >> >> instances loaded? (Moving one around probably forces others to refresh >> >> as well). >> >> >> >> What could be nice is to profile rendering time as well (but, if your >> >> first render time is included in the 10% of 170ms you quote, then it is >> >> probably fine). >> >> >> >> Would you like to try benchmarking rendering one ChronosManager >> instance >> >> when you have 30 instances opened / only one instance opened? >> >> >> >> > So from the looks of it , it looks like Morphic does not perform well >> >> > with loaded images and external files. >> >> >> >> This is a clear win if you cache those (i.e. have a LRU cache holding >> >> forms and fonts, filled upon first load, reused over subsequent loads). >> >> >> >> Thierry >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 11:34 AM Thierry Goubier >> >> > <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com <mailto:thierry.goubier@gmail.com>> >> wrote: >> >> > >> >> > Hi all, >> >> > >> >> > I would like to ask you, all of you, something significant when >> doing >> >> > GUI coding: >> >> > >> >> > Pay attention to performance! >> >> > >> >> > With the current state of our technology (Morphic, Bloc, >> whatever comes >> >> > next) your target should be one hundred milliseconds (100 ms), >> for >> >> > opening / redisplaying the widget. >> >> > >> >> > Why? >> >> > >> >> > - Because, in 10ms, Morphic can open and layout dozens of Morphs >> on a >> >> > low-end machine (1.4GHz Celeron). >> >> > >> >> > - Because most of you work on 3GHz+ i7 Macbook Pro (so, at 10x >> the cpu >> >> > performance of that said Celeron). >> >> > >> >> > - Because you are not to reproduce the past: that your current >> tools are >> >> > slow is no excuse. >> >> > >> >> > - Because you now have well designed core widgets (FT) that >> behaves in >> >> > O(1) and opens fully loaded in 10's of milliseconds >> >> > >> >> > So, profile and clean your code! Eliminate unneeded caches! >> Clean your >> >> > architectures! Avoid or mark slow code and bottlenecks! >> >> > >> >> > And bring numbers when you want to criticize the performance of a >> >> > subsystem... >> >> > >> >> > Thierry >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> -- >> www.tudorgirba.com >> >> "Every now and then stop and ask yourself if the war you're fighting is >> the right one." >> >> >> >> >> >

Nov. 22, 2015