January 2015 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] What Logging framework for Pharo

by Atlas

It's all a matter of viewpoint, that's why we should include as many of them possible :) But, even though the answer was not directed as me, I'd like to step in: > Log4J does a good job of what I would consider the laymen spirit of > logging production > he default event logging done captures the specific > of class, line number, timestamp, method et als. A dog's breakfast actually. Strings lack self-description and this causes many unnecessary architectural problems. As Doru already pointed out, you have to write parsers and analysers to interpret the output. And since might be many different formats for the same thing (dialects), you lose uniformity and have to handle all corner cases. Worse yet, there is the implicit assumption that the software (or human) inspecting the log has to understand all formats, i.e. has to have knowledge about: What the names of the classes and methods mean, which subsystems (MQ, databases) are in use and how their communication protocols look like etc. And that does not factor in possible format changes or versions of subsystems. It's hard to write generic browsers and analysers (the automated tooling Doru pointed out) that way. Also, there is the problem of reusing these parsers and analyers and code duplication, maintenance issues etc. With that said, ultimately, it depends on the use cases.* For a fixed set * of inspection use cases, this logging strategy might work fine. But it certainly lacks the real flexibility to make a system more accessible and to adopt the generated information to the person and it's needs and viewpoints. You cannot address that easily with Log4j (or any logging facility for that matter). As for Log4j and its 7 levels of logging: Why not 8, 9 or a 100? What does INFO really mean? To whom? It all depends on the context. There are many, many usage scenarios and even more might pop up with more accessible and comprehensible logging schemes. We need to go far beyond logging. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/What-Logging-framework-for-Pharo-tp4799073p4799254.ht… Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Jan. 13, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] Woden on Windows?

by Torsten Bergmann

Rhichard Wettel wrote >@all: There were only a couple of places where the "opt" prefix was missing in the parameters of the call to #options: method, which I have now corrected. I would like to commit these changes in NativeBoost-Win32, but I do not know where (which repository). Can someone can help me with directions? Was already discussed in Nov: http://lists.pharo.org/pipermail/pharo-dev_lists.pharo.org/2014-November/10… http://lists.pharo.org/pipermail/pharo-dev_lists.pharo.org/2014-November/10… Â So create a regular Pharo issue for NativeBoost in pharo issue tracker and fix by submitting a slice for latest 4.0 image. NativeBoost is currently managed internal to the image and the repo has at STHub will be/has to be synched later on anyway. When Pharo continues to manage packages via Configs (like some package in Pharo 4, GTTools for example) the NativeBoost might become managed from the external repo using a config again. For now it is in-image. Regarding the options this might be interesting as well: http://lists.pharo.org/pipermail/pharo-dev_lists.pharo.org/2014-November/10… So WinUnicode seems the only option not having the prefix. Bye T. without h ;)

Jan. 13, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] GT tool request

by stepharo

The frustration that I have with the bubble is the saem that I have in front of pdf in readonly or a file open that you cannot grab and find on your local disc. > > > I found the blue rectangle morph painful because it blocks me when > I want to freely edit expression and result. > Would it be possible that when I type enter the blue rectangle > text is paste in the pane below its expression. > > > > We are debating this feature since quite a while and we indeed need to > settle on a solution. Esteban also wanted Enter, and I was more > inclined towards Cmd+v. > > I opened an issue: > https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/14711/The-Playground-print-popper-should-… why not return? > > > Right now I have to copy and paste explictly and it not working. I > hate so much this broken interaction.... > > > Indeed. The main use case considered for the popper (that is the name > of the widget) is to not get the original editor dirty. The current > way to do things is like this: > - Cmd+c > - Esc > - Right Arrow > - Cmd+v > > Clearly not ideal. > > > Example > > (20@200) printString get blue rectangle > press copy parentheses got hilighlited no idea why > > > There are two things here, and this is confusing right now in the > Pharo theme: The background of the popper has the same background as > the text selection: > https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/14712/The-print-popper-should-have-a-diff… > > The reason you see the parantheses selected is due to the smart > parantheses mechanism that I did not know how to suppress only for one > text widget :(. No there is a also the automatic selection and the fact that enter delete the selection. And undo does not work well. > > then I press enter to go to the next line (my selection vanished > of course because the magic things selected everything automatically) > > > The selection is the same as in the previous interface. For example, > in a basic Workspace, press Cmd+i without selecting anything and the > whole like will be selected. We cannot just erase the selection when > we exit the popper because sometimes you actually have an explicit > selection that you should not lose. But, coming to think about it, we > should probably use the highlighting mechanism for the text instead of > the selection one. I will look into this. I do not get it. But I can tell that the current solution does not work. > > and I can paste the result and start to edit it. > > I sincerly hope that GT guys will understand and modify it because > right now this is a show stopper to me. > It breaks so badly interaction with texts. > > > We will fix this, but in the meantime, could you tell me the use case > for which you need to paste the text in the same editor? I am asking > because I would like to learn as I never need to do it. This is why > the interface does not support that action so I need to learn the use > case :). Soemtimes I want to compare two expressions. Something two times the same or not Something I want to show the results of multiple expressions to students I WANT FREE TEXT!!! I hate a system that tries and fails to look smart Stef > > Cheers, > Doru > > Stef > > > > > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com <http://www.tudorgirba.com> > > "Every thing has its own flow"

Jan. 13, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] GTInspector does not refresh printString

by stepharo

> > > I was doing a lecture and this is really sad to get all features gone. > > > I think this is not so fair :). indeed but reopening an inspector is a pain. > So I had to reinspect again. > > > Yes. As Andrei said, it is a bug that will be fixed. > > In addition GTInspector bubble is a pain because sometimes you > really want to keep the result and not inpect it. > > Did you see my request to get that enter put the bubble contents > into the text pane? > > > Did you see the reply? :) No where it is? > > I'm sorry but I cannot use GT as it is now. > > > That's a pity. but this is a reality. > > > And I'm working on the new version of Pharo by example and it > would be good to > have something full working. > > > Besides these two problems, do you have others? I got confused with the inspector of arrays because we have to click on an extra pane to see them if I recall. It was so painfull with all the other problems that I stop to use GT to avoid a huge frustration and get my job done. > > > Cheers, > Doru > > > Stef > >> >> Cheers, >> Andrei >> >> On Mon, Jan 12, 2015 at 12:14 PM, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr >> <mailto:stepharo@free.fr>> wrote: >> >> Hi >> >> GTInspector does not change the printString representation >> when we change the printOn:. >> Am I the only one to see this behavior? >> >> Stef >> >> > > > > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com <http://www.tudorgirba.com> > > "Every thing has its own flow"

Jan. 13, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] [Pharo4] Slots can now be saved with MC

by stepharo

+1 Le 12/1/15 21:21, Tudor Girba a Ã©crit : > This is wonderful news, Marcus! > > Thanks for the hard, tedious (and too often overlooked) work, > Doru > > On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 8:15 PM, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr > <mailto:marcus.denker@inria.fr>> wrote: > > Hi, > > After some searching for a solutionâ¦ that does not break > backward-compatibility, I found a way to save classes that use > slots. > > - if a class just uses ivar Slots, it saves it 100% backward > compatible (e.g. loadable in other systems) > - if a class uses a special slot or class var, it saves the > definition of the slot as the variable name in the > monticello model. > - on load it checks if there is a space in a variable name, and if > yes â> decode these as Slot/Global var definions. > - the code path for non-Slot classes stays largely untouched. > > This is not beautiful but backward compatibleâ¦ you can even load > classes with Slots in Pharo3, it then creates invalid > ivar names, which of course means the code does not run but it is > readable. > > e.g. create a class like > > Object subclass: #A > slots: { #iv => TestSlot } > classVariables: { } > category: 'Playgroundâ > > (TestSlot is a slot that does not use up space in the instance and > instead saves the state in the Slot object, which > means all instances share the state. Just a small example) > > Limitations > -> no support for class variables yet > -> class instance variables not yet done, either > -> nut used much, for sure there will be bugs > > This is in 4.0 438 > > Marcus > > > > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com <http://www.tudorgirba.com> > > "Every thing has its own flow"

Jan. 13, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] [Pharo4] Slots can now be saved with MC

by stepharo

> > I hope we'll also be able to follow a 5th direction, of allowing one to specify a slice or a trait or a package that just adds an inst var to a class instead of having to provide the whole class definition just to add an inst var. We would love. With Epicea we have Changes representing not only class and instance addition/removal... Now the question is also how do we initialize such new added instance variable. Now we have probably to recompile the full class hierarchy. We are brainstorming on a modular way to initialize objects What are the paths to achieve that in a clever way.

Jan. 13, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] What Logging framework for Pharo

by stepharo

Norbert we could read beacon and give a try. Stef

Jan. 13, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] What Logging framework for Pharo

by stepharo

> These are nice. There is still value in Log4s with its variery of > appenders. > what is an appender? And yes soon I will come back to Beacon+SystemLogger+

Jan. 13, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] What Logging framework for Pharo

by S Krish

Its a matter of viewpoint here.. while I would agree that the needs outlined in your note are valid. Log4J does a good job of what I would consider the laymen spirit of logging production , UAT ( at client site ) with real data and workflow textual logs. The default event logging done captures the specific of class, line number, timestamp, method et als. * the rendered string that is 90% of the logging use is formatted string to a file / channel with options of logging the event object to DB / MQ et als * the events logged do have a fair amount of information that can be used for automation tooling around it * the rendered string too can be usefully queried for much information * the 7 levels of logging of info, trace, debug, warn, error allows for optimization in production run to keep it at "warn" and reduce the performance. The purpose is to reduce the number of logging events routed to an appender, performance is impacted if it goes 10 / 100 times larger.. While UAT it is typical to work with debug to get more information of the replicated issue. The 80-20 rule in typical enterprise is to capture the log trace of the exception / error and use that to fix a bug, mostly trivial use of the logging information. Rarely if ever have I seen the log is used for deep dive analysis for improving the product, though it certainly can be and is done. So in log4j it is upto the configuration that allows one to log event object or formatted strings and to have finer control over amount of log events channelled and to any number / types of appenders eventually as per customer convenience. Given there may be 100's of customers with varied needs, it is ok to have that flexibility. I do find log4j as such a very enterprise like framework, which may seem to posses gaps you point out, but for almost 99% of its usage it fits in very well. On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 3:24 PM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: > Hi, > > Log4j types of logging systems do a reasonable job at capturing log > entries, but they are poor at helping the human make sense of the produced > log. Of course, they do attempt, but given that they see the log as a long > string, there is a significant mechanism built around formatting. > > This is broken because it implies that the human should read the log as a > way of understanding it. This works fine for a couple of lines but fails > miserably for even Mb logs (not to mention larger logs). One could tweak > the formatting to make it machine readable, but in practice all logs I have > seen in enterprise systems are mostly unstructured and one has to spend > great effort to extract the useful information out of them. For example, I > use the information in logs to understand performance and diagnose errors, > and I am using automatic tools for that. But, to build those tools, the > hardest part is to parse the log. That cost should not exist. > > The object as an item of logging preserves the original information so > that the machine can read it. String is just a way of serializing an > object, and we should only use it only in this way. Formatting still has a > place, but it should be clear that it is just one tool - most often the > least useful one. That is the reason why in Beacon, there is no formatting > in the core. > > Priority is another thing I find rather artificial. For example, > developers should mark as DEBUG things that are not useful in production, > but in the end, they mark as DEBUG things that are too large to have in > production all the time. The problem with this is that sometimes you really > want to have access to a very specific event regardless of "priority". So, > a better way of looking at filtering is by allowing the developer to cherry > pick any event at any given moment. > > We definitely have to get good at the backend, but logging objects should > provide a significant advantage. > > Cheers, > Doru > > > > On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 10:05 AM, S Krish < > krishnamachari.sudhakar(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> Log4J does do Event object logging by default. I see it may be relevant >> to roll it into log4s also. I remember Toothpick probably did that >> >> On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 11:30 AM, HernÃ¡n Morales Durand < >> hernan.morales(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> First of all, I am not the developer of Log4s, but I have been using it >>> for a while and I see no significant gain switching to SystemLogger or >>> ZnLogEvent. As Alain said, it is based in Log4j, which has his own >>> Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Log4j >>> >>> I don't think there is too much sense in having "Log Objects" around, >>> where probably I want to tail a daily rolled log from a headless remote >>> image. I read the documentation of SystemLogger hoping to find a mechansim >>> which dynamically selects compression strategies based in what's logged, or >>> some other advanced feature, but I didn't found any :( >>> >>> So if Object logging is implementing #asLog and #logClass methods maybe >>> I should add them so Log4s can log "Object" :). But seriously, such >>> comparison is not fair. Let's compare real logging features: priorities, >>> levels, appenders, output destinations, hierarchical logging, formatting >>> layout, etc. Many of them are implemented in Log4s. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> HernÃ¡n >>> >>> 2015-01-12 14:56 GMT-03:00 Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu>: >>> >>> >>>> > On 12 Jan 2015, at 18:27, Alain Rastoul <alf.mmm.cat(a)gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> > >>>> > hi all, >>>> > >>>> > Googling a bit for a logging framework in Pharo, I found sl4j, which >>>> sounds familiar to me. >>>> > http://ss3.gemstone.com/ss/Log4s.html/Wiki >>>> > >>>> > I suppose the API is the same as the java package, as claimed by the >>>> project page. >>>> > I wonder if anybody is using it , or has tried it and have an advice >>>> on that package ? >>>> > (I saw there was no test and no comments ... :( ) >>>> > >>>> > I think it could be great for Pharo to have a standard package like >>>> that, a logging facility is mandatory for most -if not all- applications >>>> > >>>> > Any advice or pointers ? >>>> >>>> Object logging instead of String logging is the way to go. >>>> SystemLogger, Beacon, Zinc's ZnLogEvent are examples. Search the mailing >>>> list for past discussions. >>>> >>>> > TIA >>>> > -- >>>> > Regards, >>>> > >>>> > Alain >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> > > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "Every thing has its own flow" >

Jan. 13, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] Modifying methodDict breaks System Browser

by Marcus Denker

Hello, The browser uses an API on CompiledMethod to e.g. display a button for running example methods. So even though for execution you just need run:with:in:, for other uses of methods you need to implement more. (e.g. imagine âsenders ofâ: it asks all methods for the literals). Therefore, the best is to store the original method in the Interceptee and implement a DNU handler to forward all message send to it. Marcus > On 12 Jan 2015, at 18:28, Atlas <erde(a)chello.at> wrote: > > Hi, > > After replacing the method of a class with an object of a class implementing > the /run:with:in/ method, the context menu of the System Browser stops > appearing, a debug context menu "Why you see this menu. Debug" pops up > instead. > > After putting the original method back, the browser works again. > > Code: > > o := Interceptee new. > > m := Interceptee methodDict at: #method. > Interceptee methodDict at: #method put: Interceptor new. o method. "Breaks > context menu?" > Interceptee methodDict at: #method put: m. "Browser works again" > > > Is anyone else having this problem? Or am I doing anything wrong? > > Thanks > > > > > > > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Modifying-methodDict-breaks-System-Browser-tp4799147.… > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >

Jan. 13, 2015