January 2015 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] Hosting the Pharo VM on MirageOS

by Marcus Denker

> On 15 Jan 2015, at 12:43, Joerg Beekmann, DeepCove Labs <joerg(a)deepcovelabs.com> wrote: > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Pharo-dev [mailto:pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org] On Behalf Of >> Alain Rastoul >> Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 10:39 PM >> To: pharo-dev(a)lists.pharo.org >> Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Hosting the Pharo VM on MirageOS >> >> Le 15/01/2015 03:08, Joerg Beekmann, DeepCove Labs a Ã©crit : >>> >>> I was not planning specializing the VM for the image. But rather link >>> in a VM with everything needed to run a range of images. The >>> dependencies are handled by creating an OCAML module that expresses >> these and the VM code then lives in the module. The OCAML dependence >> analyser (a sat solver) then ensures those are satisfied. >>> >> But if you don't have a specialized smalltalk vm and image, you will have to >> embed full system dependencies, in order to build a full working smalltalk >> system (having most part not working could be a very bad thing), and then you >> loose the unikernel approach benefits (very lean dedicated system, small >> attack surface etc.). > My implicit assumption was that these VM would be designed for running headless web-services on smaller EC2 instances. And perhaps naively was thinking that the number of system dependencies would be quite low: > > - memory > - CPU > - networking stack > - http/https > > - no file system but access to block storage (or perhaps even link image in so no storage at all) > - mirage is single threaded with green threads so no multithreading/processing Honestly, the VM is not that large. There are not many variation points on that level. Where you want specialisation is the *image*. Marcus

Jan. 15, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] InfoWorld on Redline Smalltalk

by Marcus Denker

I wonder if it would make sense to add a "Smalltalk-talk" mailing list... I am sure ESUG could host that. On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 12:33 PM, Andreas Wacknitz <A.Wacknitz(a)gmx.de> wrote: > > Am 15.01.15 16:08, schrieb horrido: > >> As I've written elsewhere, I believe the TIOBE index is plain rubbish. >> Much >> of their rankings make no sense to me whatsoever. >> >> Langpop.corger.nl <http://langpop.corger.nl/> is my "go to" website for >> language rankings. It's not perfect, but it makes a whole lot more sense >> to >> me. >> >> Scala, Groovy, and Clojure are not "ultimate failures." Heck, they're >> doing >> at least as well as Go, my second favourite language of all time. (Go is >> red-hot in China. Go has an enviable set of "standard" libraries.) >> > http://dtrace.org/blogs/wesolows/2014/12/29/golang-is-trash/ > > > >> I agree that Java is our greatest foe. We are "300" against its Xerxes. >> That's why I am sanguine about Redline â we need it! >> >> >> kilon.alios wrote >> >>> Lets see the big picture here, if you take a look at TIOBE INDEX or >>> LANGPOP >>> or the internet at large you get a clear picture about java based >>> languages >>> . Popularity wise they have been a ultimate failure. Right now the only >>> language that is barely noticable is Scala and even Scala is nowhere near >>> as popular as the less popular languages like Pascal, Delphi and Visual >>> Basic. Of course each website gives diffirent numbers but those numbers >>> are >>> just different in only few percentage units. >>> >>> http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html >>> >>> http://langpop.com/ >>> >>> Hype also does not help those languages either. Take a look at Clojure , >>> one of the most overhyped languages out there not just on JVM but >>> anywhere, >>> in both websites I mentioned Clojure like Pharo does not make it even in >>> top 50. Tons of blogs post about Clojure only, tons of praise, and praise >>> and praise. >>> >>> I can say about jython itself , a python implementation for the JVM and >>> ironpython which is python for .NET are barely noticable in the python >>> world with cpython gathering at least 99.9% of the attention. >>> >>> So its a really hard situation . Coding has become extremely complex and >>> demanding , coders want languages are deeply documented and come with >>> tons >>> of libraries so its very hard for new languages to kick in. Also the >>> assumption that because you love a language you will be willing to start >>> using java libraries seems to have failed miserably. These languages seem >>> more appealing to java developers and java developers dont seem willing >>> to >>> abandon Java any time soon. >>> >>> So as always Java death has been greatly exaggerated. >>> >>> The situation for Javascript based languages is even worse. >>> >>> So frankly what has happened with Redline is pretty normal. >>> >>> On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 2:36 AM, Craig Latta < >>> craig@ >>> > wrote: >>> >>> Shaking the hive can certainly have a positive outcome, but you can >>>>> also get you bitten. :) >>>>> >>>> Sure, and shaking the hive too rarely will get you starved. >>>> >>>> >>>> -C >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Craig Latta >>>> netjam.org >>>> +31 6 2757 7177 (SMS ok) >>>> + 1 415 287 3547 (no SMS) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> >> >> -- >> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline- >> Smalltalk-tp4799612p4799716.html >> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at >> Nabble.com. >> >> > > -- -- Marcus Denker -- denker(a)acm.org http://www.marcusdenker.de

Jan. 15, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] GTInspector and TxWorkspace does not work well in Spur images

by Marcus Denker

I added an issue tracker entry: https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/14737/TxWorkspace-has-reference-to-Compil… On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 11:47 AM, ClÃ©ment Bera <bera.clement(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Ok thanks :-). You're quick for sure :-). > > Now who maintains TxWorkspace ? > > huhum... > > 2015-01-15 15:21 GMT+01:00 Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com>: > >> Thanks for noting this. >> >> Could you open explicit issues for that? >> >> #withSmalltalkSearch is definitely just a convenience that was >> implemented before Opal so we can just change it without any problems. Just >> to show how responsive we are, both me and Andrei independently committed a >> fix for this 1 minute ago :). >> >> Cheers, >> Doru >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 3:15 PM, ClÃ©ment Bera <bera.clement(a)gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> Right now there is support for Opal but not for the old Compiler in Spur >>> images. GTInspector and TxWorkspace does direct references to the old >>> compiler in Pharo-40445, for example, >>> in GLMListingPresentation>>#withSmalltalkSearch. >>> >>> This is a pain because I am using spur images for my developments and I >>> can't use some features of GTInspector. >>> >>> In addition, the old Compiler will be removed by default from the image >>> in the next 6 months, so these features will not work in non spur images >>> soon. >>> >>> Compiler references can be replaced, for example, by "self class >>> compiler" or "Smalltalk compiler" depending on which compiler you want (one >>> specific to the class with the specific class settings or a generic one). >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> www.tudorgirba.com >> >> "Every thing has its own flow" >> > > -- -- Marcus Denker -- denker(a)acm.org http://www.marcusdenker.de

Jan. 15, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] Hosting the Pharo VM on MirageOS

by Joerg Beekmann, DeepCove Labs

> -----Original Message----- > From: Pharo-dev [mailto:pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org] On Behalf Of > Alain Rastoul > Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 10:39 PM > To: pharo-dev(a)lists.pharo.org > Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Hosting the Pharo VM on MirageOS > > Le 15/01/2015 03:08, Joerg Beekmann, DeepCove Labs a Ã©crit : > > > > I was not planning specializing the VM for the image. But rather link > > in a VM with everything needed to run a range of images. The > > dependencies are handled by creating an OCAML module that expresses > these and the VM code then lives in the module. The OCAML dependence > analyser (a sat solver) then ensures those are satisfied. > > > But if you don't have a specialized smalltalk vm and image, you will have to > embed full system dependencies, in order to build a full working smalltalk > system (having most part not working could be a very bad thing), and then you > loose the unikernel approach benefits (very lean dedicated system, small > attack surface etc.). My implicit assumption was that these VM would be designed for running headless web-services on smaller EC2 instances. And perhaps naively was thinking that the number of system dependencies would be quite low: - memory - CPU - networking stack - http/https - no file system but access to block storage (or perhaps even link image in so no storage at all) - mirage is single threaded with green threads so no multithreading/processing It may be possible to configure things on a per-image basis but I've not gotten that ambitious. The way to do this on the mirage side is to adjust the dependences stated in the module that wraps the VM. I don't know how the image could affect the code that goes into the VM. By modifying the VMMaker I suppose. > > And yo uget a standard vm, call it NOS, NONOS or whatever :) > > May be have a look at Spoon (suggested by Craig) and Seed and Hazelnut > http://rmod.inria.fr/web/software/Seed > > > -- > Regards, > > Alain >

Jan. 15, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] InfoWorld on Redline Smalltalk

by Andreas Wacknitz

Am 15.01.15 16:08, schrieb horrido: > As I've written elsewhere, I believe the TIOBE index is plain rubbish. Much > of their rankings make no sense to me whatsoever. > > Langpop.corger.nl <http://langpop.corger.nl/> is my "go to" website for > language rankings. It's not perfect, but it makes a whole lot more sense to > me. > > Scala, Groovy, and Clojure are not "ultimate failures." Heck, they're doing > at least as well as Go, my second favourite language of all time. (Go is > red-hot in China. Go has an enviable set of "standard" libraries.) http://dtrace.org/blogs/wesolows/2014/12/29/golang-is-trash/ > > I agree that Java is our greatest foe. We are "300" against its Xerxes. > That's why I am sanguine about Redline â we need it! > > > kilon.alios wrote >> Lets see the big picture here, if you take a look at TIOBE INDEX or >> LANGPOP >> or the internet at large you get a clear picture about java based >> languages >> . Popularity wise they have been a ultimate failure. Right now the only >> language that is barely noticable is Scala and even Scala is nowhere near >> as popular as the less popular languages like Pascal, Delphi and Visual >> Basic. Of course each website gives diffirent numbers but those numbers >> are >> just different in only few percentage units. >> >> http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html >> >> http://langpop.com/ >> >> Hype also does not help those languages either. Take a look at Clojure , >> one of the most overhyped languages out there not just on JVM but >> anywhere, >> in both websites I mentioned Clojure like Pharo does not make it even in >> top 50. Tons of blogs post about Clojure only, tons of praise, and praise >> and praise. >> >> I can say about jython itself , a python implementation for the JVM and >> ironpython which is python for .NET are barely noticable in the python >> world with cpython gathering at least 99.9% of the attention. >> >> So its a really hard situation . Coding has become extremely complex and >> demanding , coders want languages are deeply documented and come with tons >> of libraries so its very hard for new languages to kick in. Also the >> assumption that because you love a language you will be willing to start >> using java libraries seems to have failed miserably. These languages seem >> more appealing to java developers and java developers dont seem willing to >> abandon Java any time soon. >> >> So as always Java death has been greatly exaggerated. >> >> The situation for Javascript based languages is even worse. >> >> So frankly what has happened with Redline is pretty normal. >> >> On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 2:36 AM, Craig Latta < >> craig@ >> > wrote: >> >>>> Shaking the hive can certainly have a positive outcome, but you can >>>> also get you bitten. :) >>> Sure, and shaking the hive too rarely will get you starved. >>> >>> >>> -C >>> >>> -- >>> Craig Latta >>> netjam.org >>> +31 6 2757 7177 (SMS ok) >>> + 1 415 287 3547 (no SMS) >>> >>> >>> > > > > > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799612p4799716.html > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >

Jan. 15, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] InfoWorld on Redline Smalltalk

by horrido

Langpop.com was last updated in October of 2013. That's an eternity in our industry. I look forward to the Redmonk rankings later this month (they're done twice a year). I believe they're based on the same data as langpop.corger.nl, so you can get an early preview! Clojure gets tons of praise. That's why it has so much mindshare. /Hype works./ We need to build some hype for Smalltalk. kilon.alios wrote > Lets see the big picture here, if you take a look at TIOBE INDEX or > LANGPOP > or the internet at large you get a clear picture about java based > languages > . Popularity wise they have been a ultimate failure. Right now the only > language that is barely noticable is Scala and even Scala is nowhere near > as popular as the less popular languages like Pascal, Delphi and Visual > Basic. Of course each website gives diffirent numbers but those numbers > are > just different in only few percentage units. > > http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html > > http://langpop.com/ > > Hype also does not help those languages either. Take a look at Clojure , > one of the most overhyped languages out there not just on JVM but > anywhere, > in both websites I mentioned Clojure like Pharo does not make it even in > top 50. Tons of blogs post about Clojure only, tons of praise, and praise > and praise. > > I can say about jython itself , a python implementation for the JVM and > ironpython which is python for .NET are barely noticable in the python > world with cpython gathering at least 99.9% of the attention. > > So its a really hard situation . Coding has become extremely complex and > demanding , coders want languages are deeply documented and come with tons > of libraries so its very hard for new languages to kick in. Also the > assumption that because you love a language you will be willing to start > using java libraries seems to have failed miserably. These languages seem > more appealing to java developers and java developers dont seem willing to > abandon Java any time soon. > > So as always Java death has been greatly exaggerated. > > The situation for Javascript based languages is even worse. > > So frankly what has happened with Redline is pretty normal. > > On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 2:36 AM, Craig Latta < > craig@ > > wrote: > >> >> > Shaking the hive can certainly have a positive outcome, but you can >> > also get you bitten. :) >> >> Sure, and shaking the hive too rarely will get you starved. >> >> >> -C >> >> -- >> Craig Latta >> netjam.org >> +31 6 2757 7177 (SMS ok) >> + 1 415 287 3547 (no SMS) >> >> >> -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799612p4799728.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Jan. 15, 2015

[pharo-project/pharo-core] a6f7ee: 40447

by GitHub

Branch: refs/heads/4.0 Home: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-core Commit: a6f7eed82513cb9868185204ad55775b6c06b562 https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-core/commit/a6f7eed82513cb9868185204… Author: Jenkins Build Server <board(a)pharo-project.org> Date: 2015-01-15 (Thu, 15 Jan 2015) Changed paths: M Monticello.package/MCClassDefinition.class/instance/installing/createClass.st A Monticello.package/MCClassDefinition.class/instance/installing/sortedVariablesOfType_.st A Monticello.package/MCClassDefinition.class/instance/printing/classVariables.st M Monticello.package/extension/Class/instance/asClassDefinition.st M Nautilus.package/extension/Class/instance/definitionForNautilus.st A OpalCompiler-Core.package/IRSistaV1BytecodeGenerator.class/instance/accessing/hasPrimitive.st M OpalCompiler-Core.package/IRSistaV1BytecodeGenerator.class/instance/initialize/irPrimitive_.st M OpalCompiler-Core.package/IRSistaV1BytecodeGenerator.class/instance/instructions/pushLiteralVariable_.st A OpalCompiler-Core.package/IRSistaV1BytecodeGenerator.class/instance/instructions/returnTop.st M OpalCompiler-Core.package/IRSistaV1BytecodeGenerator.class/instance/instructions/send_.st M OpalCompiler-Core.package/IRSistaV1BytecodeGenerator.class/instance/private/jump_if_.st A ScriptLoader40.package/ScriptLoader.class/instance/pharo - scripts/script447.st A ScriptLoader40.package/ScriptLoader.class/instance/pharo - updates/update40447.st M ScriptLoader40.package/ScriptLoader.class/instance/public/commentForCurrentUpdate.st A Traits.package/TClassDescription.class/instance/slots/usesSpecialVariables.st Log Message: ----------- 40447 14735 Compilation bugs with the SistaV1 bytecode set. https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/14735 14726 Add support for loading special Class Var definitions https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/14726 http://files.pharo.org/image/40/40447.zip

Jan. 15, 2015

[pharo-project/pharo-core]

by GitHub

Branch: refs/tags/40447 Home: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-core

Jan. 15, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] [Pharo4] Slots can now be saved with MC

by Marcus Denker

> On 14 Jan 2015, at 16:56, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr> wrote: > >> >> On 14 Jan 2015, at 15:57, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr <mailto:marcus.denker@inria.fr>> wrote: >> >>> >>> On 13 Jan 2015, at 11:57, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr <mailto:marcus.denker@inria.fr>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> On 12 Jan 2015, at 16:20, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr <mailto:marcus.denker@inria.fr>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Limitations >>>>> -> no support for class variables yet >>>>> -> class instance variables not yet done, either >>>> >>>> Class Instance Slots are now done: >>>> https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/14720 <https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/14720> >>>> >>>> - With this slice >>>> - class definition template for metaclass shows slots when enables >>>> - Metacello loading implemented for class slots >>>> >>>> next: Class Variables: add Monticello loading support for class variable definitions. >>>> >>> >>> This is now done: >>> >>> https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/14726/Add-support-for-loading-special-Cla… <https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/14726/Add-support-for-loading-special-Cla…> >>> >> >> This is now in 4.0 update 444 >> > > Nopeâ¦ something went wrongâ¦. > Finally this is in 4.0 447 Marcus

Jan. 15, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] InfoWorld on Redline Smalltalk

by horrido

There's no reason why we can't fight on several fronts. Pharo is great, but it ignores the JVM platform. Pharo is great, but we need Amber on the client side. I'm even hopeful about Essence# for .NET. It would be terrific if we can rally more contributors to the Redline project. Strategically, this is a very important project. I cannot emphasize this enough. Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote > Yes, it is very alive: 20 commits in year or so. > > Pharo 4 has about 1700 in about the same time > (https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-core) And that is just one silly, > inaccurate metric. > > My point is, there are a couple of great Smalltalk implementations that > contain an incredible number of man-years of effort in their images (the > best being Pharo of course, but I am biased ;-), we can only achieve a > high quality platform by working together. The number of different > competences needed to successfully build a *COMPLETE* software platform > can *NEVER* be achieved by 'a couple of guys' let alone one individual. > > Now, it is not that they can not do so, of course they can, we need wild > and crazy ideas and research, but it is just wrong to see such experiments > as what should be promoted now. > > IMHO, of course. > >> On 15 Jan 2015, at 15:19, horrido < > horrido.hobbies@ > > wrote: >> >> Actually, Redline is quite alive. There's a brand new repo: >> https://github.com/jamesladd/stc <https://github.com/jamesladd/stc> >> >> James just hasn't gotten around to normalizing all the links at his >> website. >> >> >> Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote >>> A blank. >>> >>> Nothing happened to this project in more than a year >>> >>> https://github.com/redline-smalltalk/redline-smalltalk/commits/master >>> >>> It is mostly vapourware and has no users. >>> >>> People following the links on the article will soon find out. >>> >>> Just sad. >>> >>>> On 14 Jan 2015, at 23:40, horrido < >> >>> horrido.hobbies@ >> >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> http://www.infoworld.com/article/2867543/java/redline-smalltalk-bridging-sm… >>>> <http://www.infoworld.com/article/2867543/java/redline-smalltalk-bridging-smalltalk-jvm-worlds.html> >>>> >>>> Note the last paragraph. Our campaign will be noticed! >>>> >>>> This is exactly what I was after when I started the SRP. Spread the >>>> word >>>> about the campaign as far and wide as I could. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> View this message in context: >>>> http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799612.html >>>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at >>>> Nabble.com. >>>> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> View this message in context: >> http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799612p4799699.html >> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at >> Nabble.com. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799612p4799719.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Jan. 15, 2015