January 2015 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] Access to Pharo/TxText

by stepharo

> I do not think Igor will look at them. > > > Why not? because he told me that is burned out. Not able to do anything. So I hope he will get cured and get more energy. I'm going to talk with him to see how I can help him. > And who else did work on this? "me" but a little little me. Alain started to use TxText for Bloc but he is not expert. Documenting is where we are not good. Stef > > I can try but I'm a newbie there. > so tag me. > > Stef > > Le 14/1/15 12:43, Marcus Denker a Ã©crit : >> >>> On 14 Jan 2015, at 00:30, Bernardo Ezequiel Contreras >>> <vonbecmann(a)gmail.com <mailto:vonbecmann@gmail.com>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi, >>> Could someone take a look at this >>> >>> https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/14632/Access-to-Pharo-TxText >>> >> >> In general we need to organise: Who >> - will review fixes for TxText that are on the issue tracker? >> - commits them to the repo and give commit right to people? >> - push and coordinate to have the latest in Pharo4? >> >> Right now, all TxText contributions are ignored. >> >> Marcus >> > >

Jan. 17, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] [Pharo4] Slots can now be saved with MC

by stepharo

Marcus I like your new year resolution... Saying no :) Le 16/1/15 15:51, Marcus Denker a Ã©crit : > >> On 16 Jan 2015, at 11:44, Ben Coman <btc(a)openInWorld.com >> <mailto:btc@openInWorld.com>> wrote: >> >> do you mean...? >> https://hal.inria.fr/hal-00641716/file/Verw11b-OOSPLA11-FlexibleObjectLayou… >> > > No, Tims refers to the mails I sendâ¦ describing the reflective reading > and writing if Slots. > > My probkem is that I could now dig that out and postpone other things. > But I will not. > i will write a tutorial later, but not now. (I am already behind at > least 3 things that people > are waiting for that have higher priorityâ¦) > > Marcus > >

Jan. 17, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] [Pharo4] Slots: GTInspector support

by stepharo

Marcus would not it make sense to emit a bytecode marker (kind of no-op) so that the tools can get more information about the encoded computation and get some abtsraction? Stef Le 16/1/15 18:22, Andrei Chis a Ã©crit : > > > On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 4:22 PM, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr > <mailto:marcus.denker@inria.fr>> wrote: > > > > On 16 Jan 2015, at 12:12, Andrei Chis > <chisvasileandrei(a)gmail.com <mailto:chisvasileandrei@gmail.com>> > wrote: > > > > For me it's ok like it is now. > > > > > > I updated the GTDebuggers to use slots. > > For example you can use the bytecode one to see what actually > gets executed (and even step into the code of the slot). > > > > <Screen Shot 2015-01-16 at 4.06.03 PM.png> > > > > Wow! And just like that, the byte code debugger is actually very > useful to see what happens for real with Slotsâ¦. very useful > especially when > you emit you own byte code for a Slot. > > > Now the other problem is that because reading a slot uses > #send:read: the debugger will now stop at that instruction so one > has to do an explicit step over to read the actual slot. > > The logic that performs this check is now isolated in > #stepToFirstInterestingBytecodeIn: so we could updated it to take > slots into account. > > > > Yes, that would be nice. > > > I made an issue: > https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/14743/The-debugger-should-skip-the-readin… > > Now there is still the issue of stepping into a slot write, when > stepping into instructions. > One solution could be to have a setting that makes the debugger slot > sensitive (stepping into enters both slot reads and slot writes). > However, with the bytecode debugger one can easily step into slots. > > > Cheers, > Andrei > > > > Marcus > >

Jan. 17, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] [Pharo4] Slots: GTInspector support

by stepharo

Hi andrei once it will be fully working I think that we will need a way to activate it or not. Because for most people Slots will be transparent. But your work is great for slot designers. Keep pushing. Stef Le 16/1/15 16:12, Andrei Chis a Ã©crit : > For me it's ok like it is now. > > > I updated the GTDebuggers to use slots. > For example you can use the bytecode one to see what actually gets > executed (and even step into the code of the slot). > > Inline image 1 > > Now the other problem is that because reading a slot uses #send:read: > the debugger will now stop at that instruction so one has to do an > explicit step over to read the actual slot. > The logic that performs this check is now isolated in > #stepToFirstInterestingBytecodeIn: so we could updated it to take > slots into account. > > > Cheers, > Andrei > > > > On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 3:41 PM, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr > <mailto:marcus.denker@inria.fr>> wrote: > > > > On 16 Jan 2015, at 11:28, Andrei Chis > <chisvasileandrei(a)gmail.com <mailto:chisvasileandrei@gmail.com>> > wrote: > > > > Hi Marcus, > > > > So now ' self class allSlots ' should be used also in the > debugger to get the instance variables of an object? > > > > Yes, at least for nowâ¦ I am not yet that happy with the namingâ¦ it > is hard to get consistent *and* be resably compatibleâ¦. > > So the idea is that the old API for (instVarAt:, instVarNamesâ¦) > continues to work *but* this shows (and manipulates) > what is really there. VM level instance variables. > > Slots are first class instance variables that > a) might redefine what happens of read/write > â> all reflective read and write needs to > go through the slots. > b) they often correspond 1:1 to a low level ivar, but > they donât have to (e.g. the TestSlot in the example has no > underlying ivar) > â> we need to ask for all Slots, not just > all instVarNames. > > For the namingâ¦ in some way Slots are just âFirst Class Instance > Variablesâ that map to VM level Fields. > Sometimes I feel it would be nice to use just these two for > naming: Fields (VM Level) and Instance Variables (Image level, aka > Slots). > > But then, there is backward compatibility to be taken into > accountâ¦ we canât really change instVarAt:â¦ but we could of course > keep > those for legacy and use the âlong formâ for the âreifiedâ > instance variables: instanceVariableNamed:, > #instanceVariableNames, and so onâ¦ > > To make it really consistent and just use âField and Ivar", there > would be a lot to be changed: names of byte codes, for example. > So maybe having it like it is now is good? âField and Ivarâ are > one concept, while the high-level one is âSlotâ. > > I am not sure myselfâ¦ I have to admit. > > Marcus > > >

Jan. 17, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] [Pharo4] 450: Spotter version 1.0.7 and GTools version 2.0.9

by stepharo

And some of us are on hold :) So imagine soon Stef Le 17/1/15 00:24, Sven Van Caekenberghe a Ã©crit : > Super, things are moving so fast ... > >> On 16 Jan 2015, at 22:18, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr> wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> #450 is online with Spotter version 1.0.7 and GTools version 2.0.9 containing: >> >> 14636: spotter: remap cmd+enter to shift+enter >> 14641: spot on global vars >> 14741: GTInspector: add simple slot support >> 14252: Make collections browsable again in the tools >> 14722: Disable FreeType gives MNU and RMOD in GTools >> 14711: The Playground print popper should allow for inserting the text in the editor >> 14587: deleting the whole text in the inspector pane throws SubscriptOutOfBounds >> 14515: Damaged configurations in the image >> >> Marcus > >

Jan. 17, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] InfoWorld on Redline Smalltalk

by stepharo

Hi guys, Why I found this kind of discussion distracting is - 500 people * 10 seconds * 30 mails = too much - I do not want to lose time reading it - I do not want to feel the need to say some points when I stupid gross estimation or statements. - I want to get focus on getting impact right now on Pharo. So I think that I will start to ban some discussions from this mailing-lists. If auto regulation does not work, active policy will get a result. Stef

Jan. 17, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] InfoWorld on Redline Smalltalk

by stepharo

Tx Le 17/1/15 01:11, horrido a Ã©crit : > I'm moving all discussions related to the Smalltalk Renaissance Program to > the *Pharo Smalltalk Users* forum where I think it more properly belongs. > > My original reasoning for choosing the *Pharo Smalltalk Developers* forum > was because I wanted to reach out to /the developer community who are a > vital part of the campaign/. But I suppose this forum should be reserved > strictly for Pharo-specific development issues. > > The Pharo Smalltalk Users forum sounds more general in nature. That's where > we should be talking about Smalltalk and the PR campaign. > > > Marcus Denker-4 wrote >> I think we *really* need a smalltalk-talk mailing listâ¦ >> >>> On 16 Jan 2015, at 05:44, kilon alios < >> kilon.alios@ >> > wrote: >>> >>> "I would like to remind people that the aim of the Pharo project is more >>> ambitious than the Smalltalk one" >>> >>> I would like to hear this grand plan of Pharo, where is it ? Where is the >>> official roadmap ? What are the goals that the core development team >>> agree on ? Why are such a secret and I have never seen them discussed >>> here or anywhere on the internet. >>> >>> I would not call Pharo odd, Pharo is diffirent but not that diffirent. It >>> offers me a way to code that I prefer over python , but I would not call >>> my experience coding with pharo radically different compared to python >>> coding. Smalltalk used to be the Purple Cow no doubt when it first came >>> out , so many new concepts and ideas that were far apart from anything >>> remotely similar. But nowdays the smalltalk paradigm has been embraced in >>> several fronts , languages and IDEs are moving closer and closer. >>> >>> It took python 24 years to get as popular as it is nowdays, the most >>> popular languages have a similar lifespan if not more in some cases. Its >>> a really long process and its full of compromises and ugly truths. >>> >>> I also dont like the fact that Pharo calls itself "Smalltalk inspired" >>> its an insult to people who put an effort into Smalltalk by spending >>> hours making code. You cannot be "Smalltalk inspired" by forking code , >>> your at best "Smalltalk based" and that makes you Smalltalk. Ruby can >>> call itself "Smalltalk inspired" , Pharo cannot. This shows to me a very >>> flawed mentality inside the heads of those Pharoers that believe this, >>> its shows me fear , its shows me embarrassment, it shows me weakness. >>> >>> I would prefer it if Pharo was advertising itself as a modern Smalltalk >>> implementation as a project that lives true to the Smalltalk philosophy >>> and moves forward. Instead here we are calling Smalltalk "less ambitious" >>> , why ? Innovativing more than any other language have done so , is not >>> ambitious enough for you ? >>> >>> I do believe in Pharo If I did not I would not contribute but I would >>> prefer it without all the hype. Innovate all you want , code whatever >>> makes you happy, live your dream but also respect the dreams of others, >>> especially when you base your success on their success. And yes I will >>> dare say it , Smalltalk has been extremely succesful in many fronts , far >>> more than Pharo currently is. >>> >>> PS: Just a clarification because people love to put words on other people >>> mouths, I never said that languages like Clojure and Scheme has been >>> miserable failures generally, but based on the hype of how popular they >>> will become. Both Clojure and Sceme are great language with continuously >>> expanding communities . I was merely wanted to point out how hype does >>> not help and there was tons of hype when Java allowed for the creation of >>> those languages. Jython for example is one of the oldest Java languages >>> (2001), and there was tons of hype when the project started that Jython >>> could become at worst an equal to Cpython on terms of popularity and even >>> more popular than Java at best. Sun even funded the development of >>> Jython back in 2008. >>> >>> I admire what the creator of Redline done as I admire the effort that has >>> been invested on both Pharo and Squeak. Its really hard to make a >>> competitive product in a world so complex and so demanding as the one we >>> live now. I do believe in Pharo and I hope the best for it but even Pharo >>> never makes it to the top 20 most popular languages even in 30 years I >>> wont lose my sleep over it. I love Pharo for what it is, and not what it >>> may become. >>> >>> > > > > > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799612p4800113.html > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > >

Jan. 17, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] InfoWorld on Redline Smalltalk

by stepharo

Yes call it Pharo-Talk :) Le 16/1/15 10:58, Marcus Denker a Ã©crit : > I think we *really* need a smalltalk-talk mailing listâ¦ > >> On 16 Jan 2015, at 05:44, kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com >> <mailto:kilon.alios@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> >> "I would like to remind people that the aim of the Pharo project is >> more ambitious than the Smalltalk one" >> >> I would like to hear this grand plan of Pharo, where is it ? Where is >> the official roadmap ? What are the goals that the core development >> team agree on ? Why are such a secret and I have never seen them >> discussed here or anywhere on the internet. >> >> I would not call Pharo odd, Pharo is diffirent but not that >> diffirent. It offers me a way to code that I prefer over python , but >> I would not call my experience coding with pharo >> radically different compared to python coding. Smalltalk used to be >> the Purple Cow no doubt when it first came out , so many new concepts >> and ideas that were far apart from anything remotely similar. But >> nowdays the smalltalk paradigm has been embraced in several fronts , >> languages and IDEs are moving closer and closer. >> >> It took python 24 years to get as popular as it is nowdays, the most >> popular languages have a similar lifespan if not more in some cases. >> Its a really long process and its full of compromises and ugly truths. >> >> I also dont like the fact that Pharo calls itself "Smalltalk >> inspired" its an insult to people who put an effort into Smalltalk by >> spending hours making code. You cannot be "Smalltalk inspired" by >> forking code , your at best "Smalltalk based" and that makes you >> Smalltalk. Ruby can call itself "Smalltalk inspired" , Pharo cannot. >> This shows to me a very flawed mentality inside the heads of those >> Pharoers that believe this, its shows me fear , its shows me >> embarrassment, it shows me weakness. >> >> I would prefer it if Pharo was advertising itself as a modern >> Smalltalk implementation as a project that lives true to the >> Smalltalk philosophy and moves forward. Instead here we are calling >> Smalltalk "less ambitious" , why ? Innovativing more than any other >> language have done so , is not ambitious enough for you ? >> >> I do believe in Pharo If I did not I would not contribute but I would >> prefer it without all the hype. Innovate all you want , code whatever >> makes you happy, live your dream but also respect the dreams of >> others, especially when you base your success on their success. And >> yes I will dare say it , Smalltalk has been extremely succesful in >> many fronts , far more than Pharo currently is. >> >> PS: Just a clarification because people love to put words on other >> people mouths, I never said that languages like Clojure and Scheme >> has been miserable failures generally, but based on the hype of how >> popular they will become. Both Clojure and Sceme are great language >> with continuously expanding communities . I was merely wanted to >> point out how hype does not help and there was tons of hype when Java >> allowed for the creation of those languages. Jython for example is >> one of the oldest Java languages (2001), and there was tons of hype >> when the project started that Jython could become at worst an equal >> to Cpython on terms of popularity and even more popular than Java at >> best. Sun even funded the development of Jython back in 2008. >> >> I admire what the creator of Redline done as I admire the effort that >> has been invested on both Pharo and Squeak. Its really hard to make a >> competitive product in a world so complex and so demanding as the one >> we live now. I do believe in Pharo and I hope the best for it but >> even Pharo never makes it to the top 20 most popular languages even >> in 30 years I wont lose my sleep over it. I love Pharo for what it >> is, and not what it may become. >> >> >

Jan. 17, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] InfoWorld on Redline Smalltalk

by stepharo

There is an old vision paper and we will revisit it. Stef Le 16/1/15 09:44, kilon alios a Ã©crit : > > "I would like to remind people that the aim of the Pharo project is > more ambitious than the Smalltalk one" > > I would like to hear this grand plan of Pharo, where is it ? Where is > the official roadmap ? What are the goals that the core development > team agree on ? Why are such a secret and I have never seen them > discussed here or anywhere on the internet. > > I would not call Pharo odd, Pharo is diffirent but not that diffirent. > It offers me a way to code that I prefer over python , but I would not > call my experience coding with pharo radically different compared to > python coding. Smalltalk used to be the Purple Cow no doubt when it > first came out , so many new concepts and ideas that were far apart > from anything remotely similar. But nowdays the smalltalk paradigm has > been embraced in several fronts , languages and IDEs are moving closer > and closer. > > It took python 24 years to get as popular as it is nowdays, the most > popular languages have a similar lifespan if not more in some cases. > Its a really long process and its full of compromises and ugly truths. > > I also dont like the fact that Pharo calls itself "Smalltalk inspired" > its an insult to people who put an effort into Smalltalk by spending > hours making code. You cannot be "Smalltalk inspired" by forking code > , your at best "Smalltalk based" and that makes you Smalltalk. Ruby > can call itself "Smalltalk inspired" , Pharo cannot. This shows to me > a very flawed mentality inside the heads of those Pharoers that > believe this, its shows me fear , its shows me embarrassment, it shows > me weakness. > > I would prefer it if Pharo was advertising itself as a modern > Smalltalk implementation as a project that lives true to the Smalltalk > philosophy and moves forward. Instead here we are calling Smalltalk > "less ambitious" , why ? Innovativing more than any other language > have done so , is not ambitious enough for you ? > > I do believe in Pharo If I did not I would not contribute but I would > prefer it without all the hype. Innovate all you want , code whatever > makes you happy, live your dream but also respect the dreams of > others, especially when you base your success on their success. And > yes I will dare say it , Smalltalk has been extremely succesful in > many fronts , far more than Pharo currently is. > > PS: Just a clarification because people love to put words on other > people mouths, I never said that languages like Clojure and Scheme has > been miserable failures generally, but based on the hype of how > popular they will become. Both Clojure and Sceme are great language > with continuously expanding communities . I was merely wanted to point > out how hype does not help and there was tons of hype when Java > allowed for the creation of those languages. Jython for example is one > of the oldest Java languages (2001), and there was tons of hype when > the project started that Jython could become at worst an equal to > Cpython on terms of popularity and even more popular than Java at > best. Sun even funded the development of Jython back in 2008. > > I admire what the creator of Redline done as I admire the effort that > has been invested on both Pharo and Squeak. Its really hard to make a > competitive product in a world so complex and so demanding as the one > we live now. I do believe in Pharo and I hope the best for it but even > Pharo never makes it to the top 20 most popular languages even in 30 > years I wont lose my sleep over it. I love Pharo for what it is, and > not what it may become. > >

Jan. 17, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] InfoWorld on Redline Smalltalk

by stepharo

+ 1 and you all can get an impact! Le 16/1/15 07:26, Tudor Girba a Ã©crit : > It is always tempting to go where others are. Yet, once we get there > you might notice that many other people are there as well, and all of > a sudden we are less remarkable and we get less attention than we > hoped for. > > In the meantime, I will continue working with people to make Pharo the > thing that others will envy. I do want Pharo to be the odd one out, > the Purple Cow. It is exactly by doing something radically different > that we have a chance of reinventing software engineering. > > Some might think that it is not possible. That we are too small. That > we have no funding. That ... there are many reasons to be found for > giving up and doing what others are doing. But, I think we are closer > to reaching the Purple Cow than we think. We are on an ascending trend > and the most important features are not yet out. We still have a hard > road ahead of us, but I believe we are approaching a very interesting > period in the Pharo history. > > I would like to remind people that the aim of the Pharo project is > more ambitious than the Smalltalk one. Please rally and focus on the > larger goal. Together, we will get there. > > Doru > > On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 5:15 AM, horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com > <mailto:horrido.hobbies@gmail.com>> wrote: > > I believe in Redline. I think it's a very important project, > strategically. > On Twitter and elsewhere, I am urging contributors to join > Redline. It would > be something of a tragedy if Redline failed to reach version 1.0. > *We need > Smalltalk on the JVM.* > > > jamesl wrote > > Hi Smalltalkers, > > > > Redline Smalltalk is not dead although it looks like it. > > I recently made the grammar much cleaner and moved to using > Antlr4 as well > > as cleaning up the > > internals. Yes - what is in the core project in github is > dormant and I > > have spun off 'stc' to contain > > the the work Im doing until an appropriate time to merge back > into that > > main. > > > > I'd love some help but right now you would be limited to copying > across > > the runtime library and writing > > tests around it as I concentrate on the bytecode generation and > underlying > > code - which is hard to have too many people helping with. > > > > I'm *very* busy in my life right now with a startup > (http://mywave.me) and > > personal life but I really > > am trying to find the time to push this along. > > > > I've set myself some fitness, work and Smalltalk goals for this > year and > > all going well Redline will be > > out in September. BUT - Please don't hate me. > > > > This is the Year of Smalltalk and we can change the world - one > JVM at a > > time ;) > > > > - James. > > Redline Smalltalk > > > > > > -- > View this message in context: > http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799612p4799830.html > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at > Nabble.com. > > > > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com <http://www.tudorgirba.com> > > "Every thing has its own flow"

Jan. 17, 2015