September 2014 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

WhatsUp from: 2014-09-15 until: 2014-09-30

by seaside＠rmod.lille.inria.fr

Hi! We're sending this automatic email twice a month, to give the community an opportunity to easily know what's happening and to coordinate efforts. Just answer informally, and feel free to spawn discussions thereafter! ### Here's what I've been up to since the last WhatsUp: - $HEROIC_ACHIEVEMENTS_OR_DISMAL_FAILURES_OR_SIMPLE_BORING_NECESSARY_TASKS ### What's next, until 2014-09-30 (*): - $NEXT_STEPS_TOWARDS_WORLD_DOMINATION (*) we'll be expecting results by then ;)

Sept. 15, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] AppeX

by Tudor Girba

Hi, As you could see in the Pillar highlighting support, Rubric can now handle any syntax highlighting in a rather straightforward way. You can also easily embed this in a Glamour browser. You can see the example in the GT-InspectorExtensions-Pillar. You can load the code in a Moose image like this: Gofer new smalltalkhubUser: 'Pier' project: 'Pillar'; configuration; loadStable. Gofer new smalltalkhubUser: 'JanKurs' project: 'PetitParser'; configurationOf: #PetitParserIslands; load. #ConfigurationOfPetitParserIslands asClass loadDevelopment. Gofer new smalltalkhubUser: 'Moose' project: 'GToolkit'; package: 'GT-InspectorExtensions-Pillar'; load. Cheers, Doru On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 4:28 PM, Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > 2014-09-05 16:03 GMT+02:00 phil(a)highoctane.be <phil(a)highoctane.be>: > >> Maybe we can start small. >> >> I've current needs that could well be handled in the environment. >> >> The FileBrowser is in my view quite not used enough. >> >> When doing web applications, I deal with Javascript, CSS, content files >> etc all the time. >> >> The FileBrowser allows to edit files in its content pane. >> Doing an Accept (Alt-S) on the pane saves the file. >> >> So, instead of starting an external edit session in Vim, I mostly work >> there for some smaller changes (like tweaking CSS). >> >> Now, if we could have a syntax highlighter in there it would be nice. >> > > Yes. Anybody knows what is the API for adding / changing the styler on a > text morph? I'll have a use for a SmaCC grammar styler as well. > > Anybody has a CSS parser around? > > Thierry > > >> >> For CSS it wouldn't be too damn hard I think. >> >> >> Phil >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 3:35 PM, Jan Vrany <jan.vrany(a)fit.cvut.cz> wrote: >> >>> Hi Torsten, Phil, >>> >>> On Thu, 2014-09-04 at 14:18 +0200, Torsten Bergmann wrote: >>> > Hi Phil, >>> > >>> > if there is something I would like to see our Pharo ecosystem and ST >>> in general moving >>> > towards is to such a "multilanguage"/"multisourcecode"/"flexible >>> ressources" kind of >>> > thing. Even when this could not be a short term goal I would like to >>> see this >>> > in the long term. >>> >>> I've been working in this area for many years now. And have learned a >>> good deal while doing that :-) >>> Making one language to execute within other's environment is the easy >>> part, though it could be a lot of work (especially, if you care about >>> performance). Making tools to be aware of different languages is not >>> hard too, thought it is "just" a huge amount of work that has to be >>> done. The tricky part is to allow one to talk to each other, preserving >>> each other's semantics and still stay intuitive, clear and free of >>> unnecessary boilerplate code. Another tricky bit is to make other >>> workflows and ways of coding things in other languages work nicely with >>> the way Smalltalk way we do it in Smalltalk. These are tough bits. >>> That's where a real research has yet to be done... >>> >>> > - running Java inside of Smalltalk/X >>> >>> Well, Smalltalk/X can do much more with Java than "just" run it. >>> Java has been fully integrated into development tools supporting full >>> development cycle :-) >>> >>> >>> >> > -- www.tudorgirba.com "Every thing has its own flow"

Sept. 15, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] GToolkit

by Esteban A. Maringolo

2014-09-14 15:53 GMT-03:00 Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com>: > Hi Phil, > It would be cool to know the reasons why people have to use other tools. > Perhaps we can do something about it. If it involves text edition or manipulation, I use external tools because of the lack of certain features in Pharo workspaces (or even syntax highlighting limits) or due to the comfort I find in using the same key bindings/shortcuts I use everywhere to edit a csv file, SQL script, chunk or whatever. That's one of the reasons. :) Another one is that I found the option to do things externally to be "safer" than relying on a unique tool to do all the tasks. "Rule of Composition" and "Rule of Modularity" according to the Unix Philosophy. Not to mention the "Rule of Parsimony": Write a big program only when it is clear by demonstration that nothing else with do. :) Regards! Esteban A. Maringolo

Sept. 15, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] The Dilemma: Building a Futuristic GUI for Ephestos

by phil＠highoctane.be

FWIW, Blender has its own UI toolkit. So, they designed their own thing. http://3dicc.com/ 's Terf runs on Cog + internal additions. I guess it shows that things can be done nicely when it comes to UIs. As for Java and UI toolkits, I've been programming in Swing very extensively at one point. Well, as always, when you get into something very specific, you dig into the code and see that the designers of Swing also ran into issues and under the cover, things aren't so neat and debugging event bubbling in these things (where then, there is suddenly *zero* doc) is much harder with Java than with Pharo. UI is always a can of worms. Look at all the moves from Microsoft with WinForms, Silverlight, WPF, ModernUI, and what else... I've done tons of Java and Java EE. Heck, I paid my bills for years doing that, including teaching other people on how to use it properly. Know what? I am now sick of Java. When can we focus on the real problem and not all of the scaffholding? Java is okay, Java has lots of APIs, Java covers a lot of ground. But I just can't stand its ways of writing 20x more code than needed. Pharo is fresh air. One can actually understand what's going on and not merely call APIs around without understanding what's going on inside. Is it frustrating at time, hell yes. But do I end up with better skill after that? You bet! And as for C and C++ for 3D graphics, coders do use premade engines these days, like Unreal, OGRE, or, Urho3D http://urho3d.github.io/about.html. That last one you can script ( http://urho3d.github.io/documentation/HEAD/_scripting.html) Whatever the choice or the path, it seems that massive work is needed to get something that works semi-decently out of the door. There is no silver bullet... I wish you find what you are looking for. All the best, Phil On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 11:29 PM, kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > I don't plan to do anything complicated with C++ just contribute bug fixes > to blender and maybe add a few features here and there. Definetly not > implementing a Smalltalk into it :D I am also interesting in improving my > mathematical knowledge about 3d graphics. I am foremost a 3d artist, but I > like the idea of customising my own tools. I would not design anything from > scratch since there are already tons of open source projects. Designing my > own Smalltalk is out of the question, I prefer small projects easy to do > and realistic / practical. > > Yeap I am aware of FP and Lazarus , I may play around them too but I will > be facing the same problem I face with Pharo since they are not much > popular either and has nothing that can compete with Blender for 3d > graphics. I am not interested in commrecial Smalltalks from what I have > seen Pharo looks better, maybe they have bigger libraries a bit more docs, > but I dont think it would make much of a difference. > > If you are serious about coding 3d and 2d graphics , in the end knowning > C/C++ is a big plus since most of development happens in those languages. > > I never said Smalltalk or Pharo is the wrong language for what I want to > do , it was always a matter of tools and libraries. > > I may do something crazy like create a parser from Pharo to C++ , I think > that would be interesting and would allow me to use Pharo for coding > Blender source. Not a complete parser just something simple that can turn > basic pharo syntax to C++ syntax. I would definitely being interested in > something like this. I think Slang already does that so I may look at it > and do maybe a few modifications here and there . > > I wonder if there are other parsers for Pharo to C++ , maybe a > pettitparser template ? > > I would love to keep using Pharo syntax and the IDE and even keep > contributing to it if it could generate C++ code. Actually thank you for > reminding me about Slang :) > > On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 12:11 AM, vfclists . <vfclists(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> >> On 14 September 2014 18:54, kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> yes JAVA Swing comes with animation abilities , maybe you mean something >>> more than that >>> >>> http://youtu.be/I3usNR8JrEE?t=7m41s >>> >>> before JAVA FX , Java had and still has Java2D. >>> but I am no big fan of Java anyway. >>> >>> Dont know what it means by "ahead of its time" but back in 1998 I was >>> coding in Delphi 1996 with a rock solid and very powerful GUI API. Delphi >>> was an extremely powerful IDE , even more powerful than Pharo and stil is, >>> with very mature and well documented libraries. >>> >>> Also if we talk about transparency animation this dates back to my days >>> coding in DOS and C++. >>> >>> QT is awesome from what I see and people I ask generally have a very >>> positive opinion about it, certainly something I may learn but my decision >>> to swift focus from Pharo to C/C++ is not just because I having hard time >>> coding the things I want in Pharo, its also because it makes more sense for >>> me to contribute to Blender since my biggest interest is 3d art and blender >>> is what I use. So re-learning C/C++ will give me full access to Blender >>> internals which has a lot more potential for me. But yeah most likely I >>> will learn QT and OpenGL. Its also cool that QT also supports mobile >>> devices and even web apps. Also QML allows for live coding. >>> >>> I assume by 2-4 you mean full time developers. I don't know , personally >>> I think you need more people because GUI APIs are a pain to maintain across >>> platforms since OS define their own libraries and support. >>> >>> Yeap I definitely agree that Pharo needs more people using it, the >>> problem however is that unpopularity is a vicious circle. You don't have >>> much documentation and mature libraries because of small community and not >>> much more new people come because you don't have much documentation and >>> mature libraries. The problem also is fragmentation each one wants to try >>> his own ideas and rightly so they may not be interesting in contributing to >>> existing libraries, etc etc. These problems are common for languages. But >>> Pharo can only get better since its in capable hands and passionate people. >>> I have saw Pharo only improve the past year I have been using it regularly >>> (in my free time , part time) and the community is helpful and kind if you >>> exclude a couple of incidents here and there . >>> >>> About the web technology, personally I find he web is a big can of worms >>> but a necessary evil, I always said that building pharo on top of amber >>> would make more sense and would lift a great burden from the development of >>> pharo. Sure pharo would inherit the problems of the web technologies and >>> limitations but also its strengths and power and flexibility and pharo >>> would not need to play this game of cat and mouse with other programming >>> languages. It would at least solve the GUI API problem for Pharo and it >>> would be a matter of mapping Spec on top of existing well documented and >>> well tested and very powerful / flexible web technologies. >>> >>> But thats up to the Pharo community , my opinion is not fact and my >>> personal choice is not the choice of other people. >>> >>> >> >> There is a saying that if you want something done, right you've got to do >> it yourself, and this means working harder at it. Stuff like that get's >> easier with the passage of time, but time is what you don't seem to have >> and you may not have enough collaborators in your project. >> >> Seeing as you mentioned Delphi, you might consider the FreePascal/Lazarus >> combination and consider building a Smalltalk on top if it as you need a >> combination which gives the ease of an interpreter and live coding, >> together with the facility to get down to the metal when you need it. It >> also has the benefit of being crossplatform. C++ is really an insane >> language to attempt to do something like that in. The newer languages like >> Nimrod and Julia may be better, but they don't have the rich library set >> you need. >> >> I've always felt that the design of Smalltalk/X offers a better >> foundation for the type of stuff you want to accomplish so long as you are >> willing to meet the conditions for using it for defense related and biotech >> purposes. You will find the going tough as even Jan Vrany is not working on >> it much. >> >> All in all I would say Smalltalk is the right language for what you want >> to do, it is just that the free versions available don't match your exact >> needs, both in terms of libraries and level of mass adoption. >> >> -- >> Frank Church >> >> ======================= >> http://devblog.brahmancreations.com >> > >

Sept. 14, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] The Dilemma: Building a Futuristic GUI for Ephestos

by kilon alios

I don't plan to do anything complicated with C++ just contribute bug fixes to blender and maybe add a few features here and there. Definetly not implementing a Smalltalk into it :D I am also interesting in improving my mathematical knowledge about 3d graphics. I am foremost a 3d artist, but I like the idea of customising my own tools. I would not design anything from scratch since there are already tons of open source projects. Designing my own Smalltalk is out of the question, I prefer small projects easy to do and realistic / practical. Yeap I am aware of FP and Lazarus , I may play around them too but I will be facing the same problem I face with Pharo since they are not much popular either and has nothing that can compete with Blender for 3d graphics. I am not interested in commrecial Smalltalks from what I have seen Pharo looks better, maybe they have bigger libraries a bit more docs, but I dont think it would make much of a difference. If you are serious about coding 3d and 2d graphics , in the end knowning C/C++ is a big plus since most of development happens in those languages. I never said Smalltalk or Pharo is the wrong language for what I want to do , it was always a matter of tools and libraries. I may do something crazy like create a parser from Pharo to C++ , I think that would be interesting and would allow me to use Pharo for coding Blender source. Not a complete parser just something simple that can turn basic pharo syntax to C++ syntax. I would definitely being interested in something like this. I think Slang already does that so I may look at it and do maybe a few modifications here and there . I wonder if there are other parsers for Pharo to C++ , maybe a pettitparser template ? I would love to keep using Pharo syntax and the IDE and even keep contributing to it if it could generate C++ code. Actually thank you for reminding me about Slang :) On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 12:11 AM, vfclists . <vfclists(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > On 14 September 2014 18:54, kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> yes JAVA Swing comes with animation abilities , maybe you mean something >> more than that >> >> http://youtu.be/I3usNR8JrEE?t=7m41s >> >> before JAVA FX , Java had and still has Java2D. >> but I am no big fan of Java anyway. >> >> Dont know what it means by "ahead of its time" but back in 1998 I was >> coding in Delphi 1996 with a rock solid and very powerful GUI API. Delphi >> was an extremely powerful IDE , even more powerful than Pharo and stil is, >> with very mature and well documented libraries. >> >> Also if we talk about transparency animation this dates back to my days >> coding in DOS and C++. >> >> QT is awesome from what I see and people I ask generally have a very >> positive opinion about it, certainly something I may learn but my decision >> to swift focus from Pharo to C/C++ is not just because I having hard time >> coding the things I want in Pharo, its also because it makes more sense for >> me to contribute to Blender since my biggest interest is 3d art and blender >> is what I use. So re-learning C/C++ will give me full access to Blender >> internals which has a lot more potential for me. But yeah most likely I >> will learn QT and OpenGL. Its also cool that QT also supports mobile >> devices and even web apps. Also QML allows for live coding. >> >> I assume by 2-4 you mean full time developers. I don't know , personally >> I think you need more people because GUI APIs are a pain to maintain across >> platforms since OS define their own libraries and support. >> >> Yeap I definitely agree that Pharo needs more people using it, the >> problem however is that unpopularity is a vicious circle. You don't have >> much documentation and mature libraries because of small community and not >> much more new people come because you don't have much documentation and >> mature libraries. The problem also is fragmentation each one wants to try >> his own ideas and rightly so they may not be interesting in contributing to >> existing libraries, etc etc. These problems are common for languages. But >> Pharo can only get better since its in capable hands and passionate people. >> I have saw Pharo only improve the past year I have been using it regularly >> (in my free time , part time) and the community is helpful and kind if you >> exclude a couple of incidents here and there . >> >> About the web technology, personally I find he web is a big can of worms >> but a necessary evil, I always said that building pharo on top of amber >> would make more sense and would lift a great burden from the development of >> pharo. Sure pharo would inherit the problems of the web technologies and >> limitations but also its strengths and power and flexibility and pharo >> would not need to play this game of cat and mouse with other programming >> languages. It would at least solve the GUI API problem for Pharo and it >> would be a matter of mapping Spec on top of existing well documented and >> well tested and very powerful / flexible web technologies. >> >> But thats up to the Pharo community , my opinion is not fact and my >> personal choice is not the choice of other people. >> >> > > There is a saying that if you want something done, right you've got to do > it yourself, and this means working harder at it. Stuff like that get's > easier with the passage of time, but time is what you don't seem to have > and you may not have enough collaborators in your project. > > Seeing as you mentioned Delphi, you might consider the FreePascal/Lazarus > combination and consider building a Smalltalk on top if it as you need a > combination which gives the ease of an interpreter and live coding, > together with the facility to get down to the metal when you need it. It > also has the benefit of being crossplatform. C++ is really an insane > language to attempt to do something like that in. The newer languages like > Nimrod and Julia may be better, but they don't have the rich library set > you need. > > I've always felt that the design of Smalltalk/X offers a better foundation > for the type of stuff you want to accomplish so long as you are willing to > meet the conditions for using it for defense related and biotech purposes. > You will find the going tough as even Jan Vrany is not working on it much. > > All in all I would say Smalltalk is the right language for what you want > to do, it is just that the free versions available don't match your exact > needs, both in terms of libraries and level of mass adoption. > > -- > Frank Church > > ======================= > http://devblog.brahmancreations.com >

Sept. 14, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] The Dilemma: Building a Futuristic GUI for Ephestos

by vfclists .

On 14 September 2014 18:54, kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > yes JAVA Swing comes with animation abilities , maybe you mean something > more than that > > http://youtu.be/I3usNR8JrEE?t=7m41s > > before JAVA FX , Java had and still has Java2D. > but I am no big fan of Java anyway. > > Dont know what it means by "ahead of its time" but back in 1998 I was > coding in Delphi 1996 with a rock solid and very powerful GUI API. Delphi > was an extremely powerful IDE , even more powerful than Pharo and stil is, > with very mature and well documented libraries. > > Also if we talk about transparency animation this dates back to my days > coding in DOS and C++. > > QT is awesome from what I see and people I ask generally have a very > positive opinion about it, certainly something I may learn but my decision > to swift focus from Pharo to C/C++ is not just because I having hard time > coding the things I want in Pharo, its also because it makes more sense for > me to contribute to Blender since my biggest interest is 3d art and blender > is what I use. So re-learning C/C++ will give me full access to Blender > internals which has a lot more potential for me. But yeah most likely I > will learn QT and OpenGL. Its also cool that QT also supports mobile > devices and even web apps. Also QML allows for live coding. > > I assume by 2-4 you mean full time developers. I don't know , personally I > think you need more people because GUI APIs are a pain to maintain across > platforms since OS define their own libraries and support. > > Yeap I definitely agree that Pharo needs more people using it, the problem > however is that unpopularity is a vicious circle. You don't have much > documentation and mature libraries because of small community and not much > more new people come because you don't have much documentation and mature > libraries. The problem also is fragmentation each one wants to try his own > ideas and rightly so they may not be interesting in contributing to > existing libraries, etc etc. These problems are common for languages. But > Pharo can only get better since its in capable hands and passionate people. > I have saw Pharo only improve the past year I have been using it regularly > (in my free time , part time) and the community is helpful and kind if you > exclude a couple of incidents here and there . > > About the web technology, personally I find he web is a big can of worms > but a necessary evil, I always said that building pharo on top of amber > would make more sense and would lift a great burden from the development of > pharo. Sure pharo would inherit the problems of the web technologies and > limitations but also its strengths and power and flexibility and pharo > would not need to play this game of cat and mouse with other programming > languages. It would at least solve the GUI API problem for Pharo and it > would be a matter of mapping Spec on top of existing well documented and > well tested and very powerful / flexible web technologies. > > But thats up to the Pharo community , my opinion is not fact and my > personal choice is not the choice of other people. > > There is a saying that if you want something done, right you've got to do it yourself, and this means working harder at it. Stuff like that get's easier with the passage of time, but time is what you don't seem to have and you may not have enough collaborators in your project. Seeing as you mentioned Delphi, you might consider the FreePascal/Lazarus combination and consider building a Smalltalk on top if it as you need a combination which gives the ease of an interpreter and live coding, together with the facility to get down to the metal when you need it. It also has the benefit of being crossplatform. C++ is really an insane language to attempt to do something like that in. The newer languages like Nimrod and Julia may be better, but they don't have the rich library set you need. I've always felt that the design of Smalltalk/X offers a better foundation for the type of stuff you want to accomplish so long as you are willing to meet the conditions for using it for defense related and biotech purposes. You will find the going tough as even Jan Vrany is not working on it much. All in all I would say Smalltalk is the right language for what you want to do, it is just that the free versions available don't match your exact needs, both in terms of libraries and level of mass adoption. -- Frank Church ======================= http://devblog.brahmancreations.com

Sept. 14, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] The Dilemma: Building a Futuristic GUI for Ephestos

by kilon alios

hehe you have not seen me frustrated if you not have seen me code in C++ for windows and being so frustrated at Microsoft MFC that I punched my screen :D That was 20 years ago and fortunately I have not punched a screen since then. That day was the day I realised I did not have the patience , the metal, to become a professional coder. So I can actually tell you that I prefer Pharo over C++ , 1000 times :D Coding in Pharo was the most fun I have ever had coding in any programming language. Nah I only have love for Pharo, this is why each time I contributed I did not even have a doubt. I think Pharo is awesome and deserves to be 1.000.000 times more popular. The problems I described is a natural thing for unpopular software. Its not the fault of Pharo its not anyone's fault. Actually I feel Pharo is on the right road, even on the documentation front that I always complained Pharo for the Enterprise is very active and new content is added almost daily. So Pharo is 100% on the right road to success. My problem is not Igor , or Athens or transparency animation with pngs. The problem is that Blender is way more powerful and tailor made for my needs, Pharo is not. I knew that before starting with Pharo and I knew that Pharo would something to have fun thing for some time. Blender is 1 million lines of code , speciallised to high performance 3d graphics , build on top of a language that is the most popular for 3d graphics and on top of very powerful and mature libraries for 3d. So Pharo was never trully want I wanted and I knew that. Pharo was the most beautiful distraction. I just realised it was about time to get coding Blender source. I played around with Pharo so much cause I was not eager to start coding again in C++ :D Also I think its unfair to put Athens in one developer responsibility, there is only so much one coder can do and frankly Igor has already done a lot for Pharo. Athens is certainly not the only area Pharo needs polishing. Lets talk about very basic stuff like git support , Pharo is not there yet. If you have worked with other languages there are some things that you take for granted. Igor has been more than helpful, never left any of my questions about Athens and NBOpenGL unanswered , he is a great guy :) So I have only love for Pharo I will keep playing around with it , just way less frequently. I wish you all good luck, thanks for helping me understand and enjoy Pharo. See you around :) On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 10:07 PM, Hilaire <hilaire(a)drgeo.eu> wrote: > Le 14/09/2014 18:20, kilon alios a Ã©crit : > >> Thank you all people who helped me. But I don't think it worths to make >> my project in Pharo, too many problems. I feel privileged to have >> helped you with my contributions , I wish the Pharo the best. >> >> I could return back to Python but I think its time for me to bite the >> bullet and learn C/C++, since graphics is an area that deeply interest >> me (more as an artist less as a coder), so I don't have much of choice. >> Maybe I can brings some of my code back to Pharo with NB wrappers , I >> definitely will keep a close eye on Pharo. >> >> > I understand your frustration because I felt it a few months ago. > > Now, you should bet on Athens, that the less risky way and it is part of > Pharo itself, and it is backed by a C library. For DrGeo, I found bitmap > rendering to be much faster after Athens use. > Whenever you meet issue, Igor will be helpful and this will help improving > Athens. > > Now, I have to admit I don't understand why Igor was distracted with other > task before finishing and polishing the Athens support on the image. It > brings to destabilizing state for newcomer or even expert willing to invest > on Athens use. I got lost many time and I was close to throw all the code > through the window as well. > > > Hilaire > > -- > Dr. Geo - http://drgeo.eu > iStoa - http://istao.drgeo.eu > > >

Sept. 14, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] The Dilemma: Building a Futuristic GUI for Ephestos

by Hilaire

Le 14/09/2014 18:20, kilon alios a Ã©crit : > Thank you all people who helped me. But I don't think it worths to make > my project in Pharo, too many problems. I feel privileged to have > helped you with my contributions , I wish the Pharo the best. > > I could return back to Python but I think its time for me to bite the > bullet and learn C/C++, since graphics is an area that deeply interest > me (more as an artist less as a coder), so I don't have much of choice. > Maybe I can brings some of my code back to Pharo with NB wrappers , I > definitely will keep a close eye on Pharo. > I understand your frustration because I felt it a few months ago. Now, you should bet on Athens, that the less risky way and it is part of Pharo itself, and it is backed by a C library. For DrGeo, I found bitmap rendering to be much faster after Athens use. Whenever you meet issue, Igor will be helpful and this will help improving Athens. Now, I have to admit I don't understand why Igor was distracted with other task before finishing and polishing the Athens support on the image. It brings to destabilizing state for newcomer or even expert willing to invest on Athens use. I got lost many time and I was close to throw all the code through the window as well. Hilaire -- Dr. Geo - http://drgeo.eu iStoa - http://istao.drgeo.eu

Sept. 14, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] GToolkit

by Tudor Girba

Hi Phil, Thanks for the kind words. I am really happy this experience makes it to the core of Pharo. Indeed, the goal is to offer a comprehensive set of arguments to get people to not leave the environment. I myself, do my best to not leave it. As soon as I notice that I have to leave the environment, I try to build the tools to help me not do it. For example, this is how the database, file and Pillar support were born. It would be cool to know the reasons why people have to use other tools. Perhaps we can do something about it. Cheers, Doru On Fri, Sep 12, 2014 at 6:14 PM, phil(a)highoctane.be <phil(a)highoctane.be> wrote: > I've been working in a data acquisition scenario today and GToolkit proved > to be of immense help. > > Working in the live application, looking around for data (including file > contents), and inspecting it all + live debugging is really a sweet > experience. > > With CommandShell I may not have to leave the environment... > > > Phil > -- www.tudorgirba.com "Every thing has its own flow"

Sept. 14, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] The Dilemma: Building a Futuristic GUI for Ephestos

by kilon alios

yes JAVA Swing comes with animation abilities , maybe you mean something more than that http://youtu.be/I3usNR8JrEE?t=7m41s before JAVA FX , Java had and still has Java2D. but I am no big fan of Java anyway. Dont know what it means by "ahead of its time" but back in 1998 I was coding in Delphi 1996 with a rock solid and very powerful GUI API. Delphi was an extremely powerful IDE , even more powerful than Pharo and stil is, with very mature and well documented libraries. Also if we talk about transparency animation this dates back to my days coding in DOS and C++. QT is awesome from what I see and people I ask generally have a very positive opinion about it, certainly something I may learn but my decision to swift focus from Pharo to C/C++ is not just because I having hard time coding the things I want in Pharo, its also because it makes more sense for me to contribute to Blender since my biggest interest is 3d art and blender is what I use. So re-learning C/C++ will give me full access to Blender internals which has a lot more potential for me. But yeah most likely I will learn QT and OpenGL. Its also cool that QT also supports mobile devices and even web apps. Also QML allows for live coding. I assume by 2-4 you mean full time developers. I don't know , personally I think you need more people because GUI APIs are a pain to maintain across platforms since OS define their own libraries and support. Yeap I definitely agree that Pharo needs more people using it, the problem however is that unpopularity is a vicious circle. You don't have much documentation and mature libraries because of small community and not much more new people come because you don't have much documentation and mature libraries. The problem also is fragmentation each one wants to try his own ideas and rightly so they may not be interesting in contributing to existing libraries, etc etc. These problems are common for languages. But Pharo can only get better since its in capable hands and passionate people. I have saw Pharo only improve the past year I have been using it regularly (in my free time , part time) and the community is helpful and kind if you exclude a couple of incidents here and there . About the web technology, personally I find he web is a big can of worms but a necessary evil, I always said that building pharo on top of amber would make more sense and would lift a great burden from the development of pharo. Sure pharo would inherit the problems of the web technologies and limitations but also its strengths and power and flexibility and pharo would not need to play this game of cat and mouse with other programming languages. It would at least solve the GUI API problem for Pharo and it would be a matter of mapping Spec on top of existing well documented and well tested and very powerful / flexible web technologies. But thats up to the Pharo community , my opinion is not fact and my personal choice is not the choice of other people. On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 8:07 PM, Nicolai Hess <nicolaihess(a)web.de> wrote: > 2014-09-14 18:20 GMT+02:00 kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com>: > >> Plenty ? no >> >> A few ? yes >> >> Woden is certainly a project that I want it to be successful and keep >> going forward but at the moment I can't say its usable when each time I >> resize the window it corrupts the viewport. >> >> No offense intended but lately the more I dive inside Pharo the more I >> feel I waste my time, I love the IDE and the environment and live coding >> but using the libraries is a never ending struggle for me. I agree with >> Nicolai the landscape is not good, Pharo really lacks mature libraries . >> Sure we like to bash Java but Java libs are rock solid and very well >> documented. I bring Java as example. Again I am not complaining at all, I >> knew when I came to Pharo that I will have to face these limitations. I >> also don't feel comfortable asking questions all the time as if I want >> others to do my code but I did not have much of a choice. I just cant deal >> with the lack of documentation any more. >> >> I think Pharo as a general idea is great , you definitely have taken the >> Squeak fork one big step further but you have a very long road ahead of you >> to make Pharo a modern environment. Asking for animating a window with good >> performance is one of the very basics of a good GUI API. I know you have >> limited resources and once again I am not complaining at all I just present >> my opinion. Its clear that Pharo needs a lot more people to contribute and >> bring the system forward at least to solve the basic problems. >> > > This is definitly wrong :) > Especially the older squeak versions were ahead of its time with > (animated) interactive UI elements. > Java (Swing) does not come with an animation framework for the UI (JavaFX, > yes but that took its time). > There was a timing/animation framework used by Roman Guy for its > FilthyRich clients, that did really look great. > He created UIs that never looked like ordinary Java UIs. But I think that > was done by few people only. > So, doing this for pharo should be doable. (I do remember something like > that was done for > Morphic (maybe this one: > https://www.hpi.uni-potsdam.de/hirschfeld/trac/SqueakCommunityProjects/wiki… > )) > > yoiu can do great thinks with Qt for C++ simple animation with the good > old qwidget and > the newer qml-framework. That's what I would call feature UIs (mostly what > is done nowadays on mobile devices and other > "platforms" have their own frameworks (java)android and Object-C (IPhone). > > And I think we will see more "feature"-UI on the web with > HTML5/Canvas/Web-GL. > > Do we need a good new UI framework for pharo? Yes. > Do we need many developers for working on this ? No, I think a handfull > (2-4) people would be enough. > What pharo really needs are: > Many more developers *using* pharo as a platform. > > nicolai > > > > >> >> Thank you all people who helped me. But I don't think it worths to make >> my project in Pharo, too many problems. I feel privileged to have helped >> you with my contributions , I wish the Pharo the best. >> >> I could return back to Python but I think its time for me to bite the >> bullet and learn C/C++, since graphics is an area that deeply interest me >> (more as an artist less as a coder), so I don't have much of choice. Maybe >> I can brings some of my code back to Pharo with NB wrappers , I definitely >> will keep a close eye on Pharo. >> >> In a few months I will also present to the Pharo community a secret last >> contribution ;) >> >> On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 6:26 PM, phil(a)highoctane.be <phil(a)highoctane.be> >> wrote: >> >>> Do you know anything better for futuristic UIs at the moment? >>> >>> I guess that we aren't talking about commercial dev here. And if we >>> would rely on everything being documented in Pharo, errr, we wouldn't go >>> too far. >>> >>> That being said, there are plenty of examples in the Woden code. >>> >>> Phil >>> Le 14 sept. 2014 16:28, "Nicolai Hess" <nicolaihess(a)web.de> a Ã©crit : >>> >>> Why should he use it, now? >>>> I mean, is there a stable API? Or a roadmap ? >>>> >>>> Sometimes it is a bit dangerous to trust on "bleeding edge" pharo >>>> frameworks. >>>> I did some work based on Roassal3D just to found out there won't be any >>>> further development. >>>> The same happens with Roassal and GraphET. >>>> The same can happen with Woden too :) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 2014-09-14 14:13 GMT+02:00 phil(a)highoctane.be <phil(a)highoctane.be>: >>>> >>>>> Why not use Woden? >>>>> >>>>> Phil >>>>> Le 14 sept. 2014 12:51, "kilon alios" <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> a >>>>> Ã©crit : >>>>> >>>>> yeah I am afraid transparency is very important to me >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 1:34 PM, Nicolai Hess <nicolaihess(a)web.de> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> 2014-09-14 11:32 GMT+02:00 stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr>: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I remember that there was an animated gif support. >>>>>>>> Now I do not remember exactly. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> At least in squeak there is an AnimatedImageMorph, that can load and >>>>>>> display animated gifs. >>>>>>> That works and is quite fast even for multiple instances. But of >>>>>>> course no (alpha-)transparency >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> for roassal2 have a look at the viva classes: this is the animation >>>>>>>> frameworks that igor designed. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Stef >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 14/9/14 10:22, kilon alios wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> so I tried to animate in Roassal having two different images >>>>>>>> display with a delay for few millisecond but it only displays the second >>>>>>>> image with this code >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> form1 :=Form fromFileNamed:'/Users/kilon/Pictures/pharo.png'. >>>>>>>> form2 :=Form fromFileNamed:'/Users/kilon/Pictures/box.png'. >>>>>>>> v := RTView new. >>>>>>>> c := v canvas. >>>>>>>> s := TRBitmapShape new. >>>>>>>> s form: form1. >>>>>>>> c addShape: s. >>>>>>>> v open. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> (1 to: 100) do: [ :index| >>>>>>>> s form: form1. >>>>>>>> s signalUpdate . >>>>>>>> "(Delay forMilliseconds: 1000 ) wait." >>>>>>>> s form: form2. >>>>>>>> s signalUpdate . >>>>>>>> (Delay forMilliseconds: 1000) wait.]. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I looked into RTAnimation but dont know how to use it for this >>>>>>>> example. Any help ? Does Roassal 2 support such animations ? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> if I do s form: and then s signalUpdate for each form separately >>>>>>>> it works fine but inside the loops does not seem to work , I tried bigger >>>>>>>> delays with no effect. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 10:57 AM, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Ronie when you ready I can help writting a chapter for the nex >>>>>>>>> book. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Stef >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 13/9/14 21:42, Ronie Salgado wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 13/9/14 20:11, Enrico Schwass wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> another option could be the verse protocol. There was a plugin >>>>>>>>>> for Maya and Blender to do realtime rendering. Dont know if there is some >>>>>>>>>> automatic Swig-like wrapper for smalltalk but FFI might work. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> There is Wig like wrapper for Pharo done by ronie salgado. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I have an adapted version of Swig for Pharo NativeBoost here: >>>>>>>>> https://github.com/ronsaldo/swig >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Currently I am using it to generate my Bullet bindings >>>>>>>>> (available here: https://github.com/ronsaldo/bullet-pharo) that >>>>>>>>> can be used as an example of using Swig. >>>>>>>>> I still have to improve more my Swig generator, by writing >>>>>>>>> documentation and fixing some bugs. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Greetings, >>>>>>>>> Ronie >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 2014-09-13 16:11 GMT-03:00 stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr>: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 13/9/14 20:11, Enrico Schwass wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> another option could be the verse protocol. There was a plugin >>>>>>>>>> for Maya and Blender to do realtime rendering. Dont know if there is some >>>>>>>>>> automatic Swig-like wrapper for smalltalk but FFI might work. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> There is Wig like wrapper for Pharo done by ronie salgado. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Stef >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> http://youtu.be/c_D2YJSNj8I >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Almost a decade ago I did some ruby bindings by hand. It was >>>>>>>>>> working out of the box >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Bye >>>>>>>>>> Enno >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Am 13.09.2014 um 16:11 schrieb kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> >: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> " I am curious. You mean rendering Bitmap from blender, for later >>>>>>>>>> use in Pharo UI? " >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> yes exactly. Blender can render in all popular graphics files, >>>>>>>>>> most used are png. Animation frames can be rendered each frame in its own >>>>>>>>>> file. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> So basically its a lot like the average games out there. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> "I will suggest bare bone Morphic mainly, then Athens when you >>>>>>>>>> need vectorial drawing." >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ok >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> "For iStoa I decided to go purely Morphic, I have a lot of >>>>>>>>>> bitmap. Bitmap source is SVG, then converted to PNG, overscaled for >>>>>>>>>> production use. Then from iStoa, depending on the application window >>>>>>>>>> extent, the bitmap are downscaled accordingly, I am pretty satisfied by the >>>>>>>>>> result." >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I fail to understand how your bitmap source is SVG for me >>>>>>>>>> bitmap is a raster graphic format svg is procedural graphic format. Two >>>>>>>>>> opposite things. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> "Sure. The downpoint, you will depend on one additional layer." >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> dependency is not an issue. Afterall the graphic files >>>>>>>>>> themselves will be far bigger download even more so if the GUI becomes very >>>>>>>>>> large. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> "Nice. What will be the expected outcomes of such API, I am >>>>>>>>>> not sure to understand and I am curious." >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Well Blender besides creating 3d objects (which can be used as >>>>>>>>>> 2d objects too) it can also create 3d unrendable objects. That means that >>>>>>>>>> objects produce no graphics and have the role of placeholders or helpers, >>>>>>>>>> for example when you want an emitter of light or emitter of a physical >>>>>>>>>> power like gravity or wind. Those are called dummy objects and I could use >>>>>>>>>> them to give characteristics to the graphics , for example I could use a >>>>>>>>>> dummy to define the are of influence of a mouse click , or what type of >>>>>>>>>> event the bitmap will respond to. That means you wont have to import the >>>>>>>>>> graphics manually to pharo and create a separate morph for each bitmap and >>>>>>>>>> then set the events but rather press a button in blender and then Ephestos >>>>>>>>>> will import then bitmaps to pharo , set the events and create the morphs >>>>>>>>>> automagically. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> So basically you will be using Blender as a GUI designer. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> "Use fuel to store the state of your application objects." >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ah nice so fuel is a good candidate. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I will also take a look at Dr Geo and Phratch , both apps have >>>>>>>>>> custom GUIs and use only Morphic (Dr Geo using Athens for the geometry >>>>>>>>>> primitives) . >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >> >

Sept. 14, 2014