September 2014 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] Parsing Pharo syntax to C/C++

by Thierry Goubier

2014-09-15 13:39 GMT+02:00 kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com>: > > About LLVM sound very cool and I was googling about that few hours ago but > from what I have read is a very undocumented part of LLVM so that maybe > easier said than done. Looks like Pharo is not the only project having > issues with documentation ;) > LLVM is an industrial-class open source project included in, I believe, all GPU drivers (for compilation of CUDA and OpenCL code). It is also one of the best documented low-level compilation toolkits with performance to match the other open source compiler (gcc). LLVM-IR is fairly well documented. > > So it looks like I will be sticking with Pharo after all :D > :) Thierry

Sept. 15, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Parsing Pharo syntax to C/C++

by kilon alios

thanks I am looking at it is this relevant to pharo ? --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visitor_pattern Sure if I can stay in pharo while coding in C/C++ then why not ? Even if I still have to do work outside pharo. The problem is beginners like me do not realize the potential of their tools because of lack of experience, so its more likely I give up than you who you are a much more experienced pharoer than me. Afterall Neo needed Morpheas to show him that he is the chosen one ;) I invested a year of my life in pharo and I would love to invest a lot more and benefit back the community. This way everyone is a winner. Also Thierry mentioned Ring which led me to this http://rmod.lille.inria.fr/archives/papers/Uqui11a-RingJournalPaper-CSSJour… from the looks of it is a source code analyzer ? much to study , a lot of potential and another happy Pharo user :) On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 3:02 PM, phil(a)highoctane.be <phil(a)highoctane.be> wrote: > On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 1:39 PM, kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > >> WOW this CCodeGenerator is great , I have downloaded it and tried the >> example and it generated the 'generated.c" file . Awesome !!!! thank you >> all >> > > Ah ah, happy to have made you day. Yes, Slang is the awesome thing for > integrating things. You can debug in Pharo, and then compile to C. How cool > is that? > >> >> Ok how about this visitor thing ? any links to it , no idea what that is >> and how to use it in pharo. Is it a way to code like continuations ? >> > > Check the FileSystem-Core-Implementation package. > > Look at the FileSystemGuide and how ti works, including the > FileSystemVisitor and its Collect and Select visitors down there. > > It is interesting material to get to terms with the Visitor/Guide thing. > > I reused/cloned a ton of this code for my current project where I do have > to navigate network equipement structures and generate probes along the way. > > A tad mind twisting at the beginning but very useful once you get it. > > Once you have the guide, you can visit all the way you want. Like here, I > generate HTML tree controls, D3 graphics, SNMP probes etc. > > There are samples also for AST, but this is a tad too much for me at the > moment. > > > >> About LLVM sound very cool and I was googling about that few hours ago >> but from what I have read is a very undocumented part of LLVM so that maybe >> easier said than done. Looks like Pharo is not the only project having >> issues with documentation ;) >> >> So it looks like I will be sticking with Pharo after all :D >> > > Ah, swallowing the red pill is nearing. > > Enjoy, > Phil > >> >> >> On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 2:28 PM, Serge Stinckwich < >> serge.stinckwich(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 12:31 PM, phil(a)highoctane.be <phil(a)highoctane.be> >>> wrote: >>> > On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 11:33 AM, Serge Stinckwich >>> > <serge.stinckwich(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> >> >>> >> On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 11:28 AM, Santiago Bragagnolo >>> >> <santiagobragagnolo(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> >> > I may be wrong, but I think the closest thing out there is Slang. >>> Is >>> >> > the >>> >> > pseudo smalltalk used to develop the VM. >>> >> > >>> >> > Also there is a project for generating C for arduino, (a project >>> related >>> >> > with EToys), but i am not sure about how complete is. >>> >> >>> >> Both are subset of Smalltalk. This is best path to follow I guess: >>> >> define your own DSL for your needs and implement a visitor to do code >>> >> generation. >>> >> We have done that for epidemiological modeling. >>> > >>> > >>> > Or combine both: visitor which uses CCodeGenerator for emitting the >>> result. >>> >>> Yes, interesting idea, instead of generating strings! >>> >>> -- >>> Serge Stinckwich >>> UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) >>> Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk >>> http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/ >>> >>> >> >

Sept. 15, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Parsing Pharo syntax to C/C++

by Tudor Girba

Please pay careful attention: this is one of those Pharo libraries that might not meet industry standard. But, it is so small and elegant that even an amateur can have a say with it :). The interesting thing about the red pill is that the reality that comes after taking the pill is less clean than the one from before the pill, But, it is richer! You can still choose the world you want to live in :) Doru On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 2:02 PM, phil(a)highoctane.be <phil(a)highoctane.be> wrote: > On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 1:39 PM, kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > >> WOW this CCodeGenerator is great , I have downloaded it and tried the >> example and it generated the 'generated.c" file . Awesome !!!! thank you >> all >> > > Ah ah, happy to have made you day. Yes, Slang is the awesome thing for > integrating things. You can debug in Pharo, and then compile to C. How cool > is that? > >> >> Ok how about this visitor thing ? any links to it , no idea what that is >> and how to use it in pharo. Is it a way to code like continuations ? >> > > Check the FileSystem-Core-Implementation package. > > Look at the FileSystemGuide and how ti works, including the > FileSystemVisitor and its Collect and Select visitors down there. > > It is interesting material to get to terms with the Visitor/Guide thing. > > I reused/cloned a ton of this code for my current project where I do have > to navigate network equipement structures and generate probes along the way. > > A tad mind twisting at the beginning but very useful once you get it. > > Once you have the guide, you can visit all the way you want. Like here, I > generate HTML tree controls, D3 graphics, SNMP probes etc. > > There are samples also for AST, but this is a tad too much for me at the > moment. > > > >> About LLVM sound very cool and I was googling about that few hours ago >> but from what I have read is a very undocumented part of LLVM so that maybe >> easier said than done. Looks like Pharo is not the only project having >> issues with documentation ;) >> >> So it looks like I will be sticking with Pharo after all :D >> > > Ah, swallowing the red pill is nearing. > > Enjoy, > Phil > >> >> >> On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 2:28 PM, Serge Stinckwich < >> serge.stinckwich(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 12:31 PM, phil(a)highoctane.be <phil(a)highoctane.be> >>> wrote: >>> > On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 11:33 AM, Serge Stinckwich >>> > <serge.stinckwich(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> >> >>> >> On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 11:28 AM, Santiago Bragagnolo >>> >> <santiagobragagnolo(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> >> > I may be wrong, but I think the closest thing out there is Slang. >>> Is >>> >> > the >>> >> > pseudo smalltalk used to develop the VM. >>> >> > >>> >> > Also there is a project for generating C for arduino, (a project >>> related >>> >> > with EToys), but i am not sure about how complete is. >>> >> >>> >> Both are subset of Smalltalk. This is best path to follow I guess: >>> >> define your own DSL for your needs and implement a visitor to do code >>> >> generation. >>> >> We have done that for epidemiological modeling. >>> > >>> > >>> > Or combine both: visitor which uses CCodeGenerator for emitting the >>> result. >>> >>> Yes, interesting idea, instead of generating strings! >>> >>> -- >>> Serge Stinckwich >>> UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) >>> Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk >>> http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/ >>> >>> >> > -- www.tudorgirba.com "Every thing has its own flow"

Sept. 15, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Parsing Pharo syntax to C/C++

by phil＠highoctane.be

On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 1:39 PM, kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > WOW this CCodeGenerator is great , I have downloaded it and tried the > example and it generated the 'generated.c" file . Awesome !!!! thank you > all > Ah ah, happy to have made you day. Yes, Slang is the awesome thing for integrating things. You can debug in Pharo, and then compile to C. How cool is that? > > Ok how about this visitor thing ? any links to it , no idea what that is > and how to use it in pharo. Is it a way to code like continuations ? > Check the FileSystem-Core-Implementation package. Look at the FileSystemGuide and how ti works, including the FileSystemVisitor and its Collect and Select visitors down there. It is interesting material to get to terms with the Visitor/Guide thing. I reused/cloned a ton of this code for my current project where I do have to navigate network equipement structures and generate probes along the way. A tad mind twisting at the beginning but very useful once you get it. Once you have the guide, you can visit all the way you want. Like here, I generate HTML tree controls, D3 graphics, SNMP probes etc. There are samples also for AST, but this is a tad too much for me at the moment. > About LLVM sound very cool and I was googling about that few hours ago but > from what I have read is a very undocumented part of LLVM so that maybe > easier said than done. Looks like Pharo is not the only project having > issues with documentation ;) > > So it looks like I will be sticking with Pharo after all :D > Ah, swallowing the red pill is nearing. Enjoy, Phil > > > On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 2:28 PM, Serge Stinckwich < > serge.stinckwich(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 12:31 PM, phil(a)highoctane.be <phil(a)highoctane.be> >> wrote: >> > On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 11:33 AM, Serge Stinckwich >> > <serge.stinckwich(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 11:28 AM, Santiago Bragagnolo >> >> <santiagobragagnolo(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> > I may be wrong, but I think the closest thing out there is Slang. Is >> >> > the >> >> > pseudo smalltalk used to develop the VM. >> >> > >> >> > Also there is a project for generating C for arduino, (a project >> related >> >> > with EToys), but i am not sure about how complete is. >> >> >> >> Both are subset of Smalltalk. This is best path to follow I guess: >> >> define your own DSL for your needs and implement a visitor to do code >> >> generation. >> >> We have done that for epidemiological modeling. >> > >> > >> > Or combine both: visitor which uses CCodeGenerator for emitting the >> result. >> >> Yes, interesting idea, instead of generating strings! >> >> -- >> Serge Stinckwich >> UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) >> Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk >> http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/ >> >> >

Sept. 15, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Parsing Pharo syntax to C/C++

by phil＠highoctane.be

On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 1:28 PM, Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Phil, > > thanks for the update on Slang to C. Allways significant to have that. > > Two open questions: > > - would a slang to x86 asm via NativeBoost be doable / a nice target? > I have to admit that I am happy to have Slang to C and it gets out of my competence from there :-) Now, Slang to asm, that's quite a chasm to cross. If what asm does is doing syscalls, well, I don't see the added value right away as NB Assembler would do that already no? Now, I am on Linux for about all of my Pharo code, so, C is nice enough. > > - would targetting LLVM-IR be of interest? > Oh, that would be interesting. In order to get the IR interpreter and running things all over. Now, this should be extended to the whole VM then. But not sure we want that before we get 64 bits... Ah, I should have taken the research career :-) Phil > > Thierry > > 2014-09-15 12:29 GMT+02:00 phil(a)highoctane.be <phil(a)highoctane.be>: > >> Slang has been externalized by Pavel. So, Smalltalk to C works. >> >> Works nicely, even if there were a few glitches (like code generated >> twice at one point). >> Nothing unfixable, I got the beast working. >> >> Allows for things like: write Slang, generate C, compile into DLL, load >> DLL, run C code. All in a single shot. >> >> PavelKrivanek/CCodeGenerator on SmalltalkHub (which looks like super >> slow/zombified). >> >> Phil >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 11:28 AM, Santiago Bragagnolo < >> santiagobragagnolo(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> I may be wrong, but I think the closest thing out there is Slang. Is >>> the pseudo smalltalk used to develop the VM. >>> >>> Also there is a project for generating C for arduino, (a project related >>> with EToys), but i am not sure about how complete is. >>> >>> >>> >>> 2014-09-15 11:04 GMT+02:00 kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com>: >>> >>>> Is there a way to convert code from pharo to c or c++ ? Does pettit >>>> parser or other parsers offer such support ? >>>> >>> >>> >> >

Sept. 15, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Parsing Pharo syntax to C/C++

by kilon alios

WOW this CCodeGenerator is great , I have downloaded it and tried the example and it generated the 'generated.c" file . Awesome !!!! thank you all Ok how about this visitor thing ? any links to it , no idea what that is and how to use it in pharo. Is it a way to code like continuations ? About LLVM sound very cool and I was googling about that few hours ago but from what I have read is a very undocumented part of LLVM so that maybe easier said than done. Looks like Pharo is not the only project having issues with documentation ;) So it looks like I will be sticking with Pharo after all :D On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 2:28 PM, Serge Stinckwich < serge.stinckwich(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 12:31 PM, phil(a)highoctane.be <phil(a)highoctane.be> > wrote: > > On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 11:33 AM, Serge Stinckwich > > <serge.stinckwich(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >> On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 11:28 AM, Santiago Bragagnolo > >> <santiagobragagnolo(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> > I may be wrong, but I think the closest thing out there is Slang. Is > >> > the > >> > pseudo smalltalk used to develop the VM. > >> > > >> > Also there is a project for generating C for arduino, (a project > related > >> > with EToys), but i am not sure about how complete is. > >> > >> Both are subset of Smalltalk. This is best path to follow I guess: > >> define your own DSL for your needs and implement a visitor to do code > >> generation. > >> We have done that for epidemiological modeling. > > > > > > Or combine both: visitor which uses CCodeGenerator for emitting the > result. > > Yes, interesting idea, instead of generating strings! > > -- > Serge Stinckwich > UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) > Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk > http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/ > >

Sept. 15, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Parsing Pharo syntax to C/C++

by Thierry Goubier

Hi Phil, thanks for the update on Slang to C. Allways significant to have that. Two open questions: - would a slang to x86 asm via NativeBoost be doable / a nice target? - would targetting LLVM-IR be of interest? Thierry 2014-09-15 12:29 GMT+02:00 phil(a)highoctane.be <phil(a)highoctane.be>: > Slang has been externalized by Pavel. So, Smalltalk to C works. > > Works nicely, even if there were a few glitches (like code generated twice > at one point). > Nothing unfixable, I got the beast working. > > Allows for things like: write Slang, generate C, compile into DLL, load > DLL, run C code. All in a single shot. > > PavelKrivanek/CCodeGenerator on SmalltalkHub (which looks like super > slow/zombified). > > Phil > > > > > > > > On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 11:28 AM, Santiago Bragagnolo < > santiagobragagnolo(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> I may be wrong, but I think the closest thing out there is Slang. Is the >> pseudo smalltalk used to develop the VM. >> >> Also there is a project for generating C for arduino, (a project related >> with EToys), but i am not sure about how complete is. >> >> >> >> 2014-09-15 11:04 GMT+02:00 kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com>: >> >>> Is there a way to convert code from pharo to c or c++ ? Does pettit >>> parser or other parsers offer such support ? >>> >> >> >

Sept. 15, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Parsing Pharo syntax to C/C++

by Serge Stinckwich

On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 12:31 PM, phil(a)highoctane.be <phil(a)highoctane.be> wrote: > On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 11:33 AM, Serge Stinckwich > <serge.stinckwich(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 11:28 AM, Santiago Bragagnolo >> <santiagobragagnolo(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> > I may be wrong, but I think the closest thing out there is Slang. Is >> > the >> > pseudo smalltalk used to develop the VM. >> > >> > Also there is a project for generating C for arduino, (a project related >> > with EToys), but i am not sure about how complete is. >> >> Both are subset of Smalltalk. This is best path to follow I guess: >> define your own DSL for your needs and implement a visitor to do code >> generation. >> We have done that for epidemiological modeling. > > > Or combine both: visitor which uses CCodeGenerator for emitting the result. Yes, interesting idea, instead of generating strings! -- Serge Stinckwich UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/

Sept. 15, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] AppeX

by Thierry Goubier

Hi, 2014-09-15 11:37 GMT+02:00 Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com>: > Hi, > > On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 11:27 AM, Thierry Goubier < > thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> >> I'm accustomed to the smart suggestion stuff as I implemented it, makes >> it very easy to drill down in code... >> >> What I use a lot: >> >> Right mouse button on a global, select 'Browse' : inspect the class >> variable or open a browser on the class (depending on what it is). Also >> valid in a class #subclass: display in the browser, to browse the super >> class. >> >> Implementors / sendors of / accesses to instance var under right mouse >> button: open a full browser showing all the resulting methods (and not a >> message list :( ). Also works in the string containing instance variable >> names in a class definition pane. >> >> Double click on a package / class -> open a browser scoped to that >> package / class (where all search operations are limited to that scope). >> >> Ctrl+F -> open the finder toolbar on top of the browser, with reduced gui >> (no package choice) : result of the finder will appear in a new browser, >> and finder is scoped by the initial browser scope. >> >> So, when I end up in Nautilus, I just find myself very clumsy looking >> around (which is not good for my self-esteem ;) ) Not forgetting the fact >> that opening a Nautilus browser takes a lot longer. >> > > Are you comparing with the AltBrowser? > Yes. > > >> In Moose also, GTInspector is slow. >> > > What is slow? > Switching from one instance variable to another with the keyboard (i.e. doing arrow down or up multiple times) : each time a new presentation is built to be erased immediately (well, not immediately sadly :( ). Significantly worse when the host computer isn't very powerfull. > > >> >> Take it as a different experience on the GUI side; I know I invest a lot >> in the motor skill part of the GUI, and this has an effect when I switch >> platform. >> > > It seems to me that you are not comparing the Moose image with the Pharo > image, right? What are you comparing with? Can I look at these changes? > Simply AltBrowser loaded. There isn't much changes overall: AltBrowser is a bit larger than the old system browser and a lot smaller than Nautilus while providing the system browser, the message list and the finder. It is certainly the proof Pharo provides a good infrastructure for IDE development and experimentation :) Thierry > > Cheers, > Doru > > >> Thierry >> >> >> > > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "Every thing has its own flow" >

Sept. 15, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] The Dilemma: Building a Futuristic GUI for Ephestos

by kilon alios

Yeap you can do that with Ephestos, or you will be able to do it shortly. You can send data from pharo to blender but you cannot send data from blender to pharo. But thats is just a matter of adding a small of piece of code in python side so I will implement it probably today. So yes I hope this week if not today pharo inspector to be able to inspect blender data. I am not sure about the updating though, inspector update its display when the data changes to display the latest data , that would require to keep sending messages to blender to fetch the latest data, its not hard at all just that inspector will have to be modified to do that.I am not familiar with inspector internal so that is up to pharoers to do. So you can now change any model data inside Blender , not just geometry data but anything like textures, materials, animation data and tons more. The Python API has the same access to data structures that the Blender source has so in that department Ephestos is extremely powerful. I have not hooked Ephestos to the Blender Game Engine yet, again that should not be more than an afternoon of work, so I will do it eventually. It may not even needs a change , most likely it wont , just a case of importing a python module. Shared 3d model ? sure that is also doable, when I add to Ephestos the ability to retrieve data from blender you will be able to create your own 3d model, your own pharo objects to wrap blender python objects. Generally you will be able to do anything you can do with Blender from Pharo. The only limitation is not expect the socket used by Ephestos to able to retrieve GBs or even MBs of Blender data in an instant, usually the kind of data that is that big is only the geometry data itself that can be millions of polygons. This is where a FFI solution would be better than my solution using sockets. But then would you want to play with GBs of data in pharo ? I think not. Be warned that Ephestos maps 1 by 1 to the Blender API , that means you have to learn the Blender API and if I implement support for Blender Game Engine then you will need to know the Blender Game Engine API if you want to create a game or a realtime interactive 2d or 3d demo of some sort. Some knowledge , just the basic stuff , of python is desirable too. The only difference is that instead of coding in python you code in pharo. Ephestos has access to all python libraries, and by everything I mean everything . So if you dont want to use the BGE you can use another game engine as long it supports cpython. Unity can work with ironpython from what I read, Ephestos may not work out of the box in that case but with minor modifications it should not be more than a hour of work to get Unity working with Pharo. Again I leave that to anyone that is seriously interested. Ephestos is super simple, very basic socket code, so its easy to port around. The only tricky part is how I parse Pharo syntax to python syntax using regex but I think the code is clear enough to be understood by any experienced pharo coder. Probably it can be improve in many diffirent ways too. The syntax parser however is limited to basic python syntax, like accessing objects , global variables and calling methods and functions. For more advanced stuff like defining python classes, functions, list comprehensions etc you will need to use python syntax inlined inside your Pharo code which Ephestos also offers as fallback. The parser could be expanded to more advanced python syntax I may improve that area in the future. But then I dont I have a problem writing some code in python from pharo. But as I said, the challenge is not using Ephestos but learning Blender and its API which both have a steep learning curve because they offer a ton of functionality. But then the same problem you will face using any of the very powerful Game engines out there. On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 12:30 PM, Hilaire <hilaire(a)drgeo.eu> wrote: > May be I wrongly expressed: imagine a 3D game whose model world is in > Pharo then rendered in Blender (I guess model data need to be share between > Pahro and Blender, but graphic only reside on Blender). Now you could use > the Pharo dev tools like inspector & al. to play with your games. > With DrGeo analogy: it will be more like a shared 3D model between Pharo > and Blender, and controlled from Pharo. > > Le 15/09/2014 11:02, kilon alios a Ã©crit : > >> It depends what you mean by control blender. Blender is 2 things a) >> C/C++ source code that implements all features that users use b) the >> Python API that allows to use all features that a user can use. Ephestos >> already allows full access to (b) . So for example if you wanted Dr Geo >> to export its data to blender so Dr Geo can convert its geometry to 3D >> and use all the nice features of blender you can do that already with >> ephestos. But for modifying existing functionality you need to get your >> hands dirty with the source. Implementing new fuctionality like >> importers / exporters etc is also doable via API so its doable via >> Ephestos. But cpu intense new fuctionality is done by modifying the >> source. >> >> > > -- > Dr. Geo - http://drgeo.eu > iStoa - http://istao.drgeo.eu > > >

Sept. 15, 2014