July 2014 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] Interactive Notebook

by kilon alios

I have tried to make something similar with Rubric example of Workspace. My dream is a Super Workspace to replace all IDE tools inside pharo, system browser, Monticello, inspector, debugger , versioner , etc inspired by emacs and of course ipython. I am still working on it from time to time, but its a low priority project for now. I am sure other people have similar goals so I am also interested in joining efforts. Also I am interested in visual coding so I am flirting with Phratch and wonder how Phratch would mix with my Super Workspace concept. There is certainly a lot of potential here. On Tue, Jul 15, 2014 at 9:11 PM, GOUBIER Thierry <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr> wrote: > Demo of what? New GUI, new text editor? > > Thierry > ________________________________________ > De : Pharo-dev [pharo-dev-bounces(a)lists.pharo.org] de la part de stepharo > [stepharo(a)free.fr] > EnvoyÃ© : mardi 15 juillet 2014 20:00 > Ã : Pharo Development List > Objet : Re: [Pharo-dev] Interactive Notebook > > Thierry > > I can tell you that I got a demo made by gary chambers and this is > impressive and all done in Pharo. > In addition with the new text model, it will really change the situation. > > Stef > > On 15/7/14 13:33, Goubier Thierry wrote: > > I'm scanning a bit among scientific / computation languages (including > > GUIs) and I'd like to know if some work has been done on interactive > > notebooks gui concepts? > > > > I'm thinking of something like: http://ipython.org/notebook.html > > > > I know that the Pharo text editing capabilities are not up to that > > kind of job, but I'd like to know if some would be interested in being > > able to interact via that kind of development environment. > > > > Thierry > > > >

July 15, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Busy week :)

by Craig Latta

> http://pharoweekly.wordpress.com/2014/07/15/another-busy-week- > in-pharoland Cool! Typos: âwithout being forcedâ (not âwithout been forcedâ) and âthank you for your contributionsâ (not âthanks youâ). -C -- Craig Latta http://netjam.org/cv +31 6 2757 7177 (SMS ok) + 1 415 287 3547 (no SMS)

July 15, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] consideration of Smalltalk "DoIt"

by kilon alios

In python there is eval() which evaluates and there is exec() which executes The difference is that one calculates a value which it returns , the other executes code. Personally I find "do it" very good choice because it makes clear what you referring to , in contrast "evaluate" and "execute" can mean different things under different context. On Tue, Jul 15, 2014 at 9:07 PM, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: > In general I banned evaluate from the book vocabulary because people think > that this is slower. > I saw teachers writing that smalltalk is interpreted and java compiled :). > I use execute. > > > > On 15/7/14 19:20, Ben Coman wrote: > >> >> Mostly I take for granted that "DoIt" has always been the way to evaluate >> things with Smalltalk, however I find it awkward to use in writing a >> tutorial. Some examples... * After saving, select "Grid new" and "DoIt" >> -- this sounds awkward, and even that you might need select the latter as >> well. >> * After saving, "Grid new" DoIt. -- doesn't read nice >> * After saving, DoIt to "Grid new." -- worst of all >> >> I'd feel better writing something like this... >> * After saving, evaluate "Grid new". >> but "evaluate" is not an item in the menus. I think actually many people >> talk this way with the implicit convention that "evaluate" means "DoIt". >> >> So first, does anyone have a good way to compose sentences using "DoIt". >> Second, how evil would it be to change the menus from "DoIt" to >> "Evaluate" and so avoid the implicit convention. >> >> cheers -ben >> >> >> >> >> > >

July 15, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Interactive Notebook

by GOUBIER Thierry

Demo of what? New GUI, new text editor? Thierry ________________________________________ De : Pharo-dev [pharo-dev-bounces(a)lists.pharo.org] de la part de stepharo [stepharo(a)free.fr] EnvoyÃ© : mardi 15 juillet 2014 20:00 Ã : Pharo Development List Objet : Re: [Pharo-dev] Interactive Notebook Thierry I can tell you that I got a demo made by gary chambers and this is impressive and all done in Pharo. In addition with the new text model, it will really change the situation. Stef On 15/7/14 13:33, Goubier Thierry wrote: > I'm scanning a bit among scientific / computation languages (including > GUIs) and I'd like to know if some work has been done on interactive > notebooks gui concepts? > > I'm thinking of something like: http://ipython.org/notebook.html > > I know that the Pharo text editing capabilities are not up to that > kind of job, but I'd like to know if some would be interested in being > able to interact via that kind of development environment. > > Thierry

July 15, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] consideration of Smalltalk "DoIt"

by stepharo

In general I banned evaluate from the book vocabulary because people think that this is slower. I saw teachers writing that smalltalk is interpreted and java compiled :). I use execute. On 15/7/14 19:20, Ben Coman wrote: > > Mostly I take for granted that "DoIt" has always been the way to > evaluate things with Smalltalk, however I find it awkward to use in > writing a tutorial. Some examples... * After saving, select "Grid > new" and "DoIt" -- this sounds awkward, and even that you might need > select the latter as well. > * After saving, "Grid new" DoIt. -- doesn't read nice > * After saving, DoIt to "Grid new." -- worst of all > > I'd feel better writing something like this... > * After saving, evaluate "Grid new". > but "evaluate" is not an item in the menus. I think actually many > people talk this way with the implicit convention that "evaluate" > means "DoIt". > > So first, does anyone have a good way to compose sentences using "DoIt". > Second, how evil would it be to change the menus from "DoIt" to > "Evaluate" and so avoid the implicit convention. > > cheers -ben > > > >

July 15, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] consideration of Smalltalk "DoIt"

by Sebastian Sastre

Having evaluate wont hurt but I would NOT remove the traditional do it For sentences with it, I would alternate between Evaluate 'Grid new' and remember that doIt is a message send and button/command like "select 'Grid new' and 'Do it' from the menu" some smalltalk IDEs can say "select 'Grid new' and press the 'Do it' button" sebastian o/ > On 15/07/2014, at 14:33, "Esteban A. Maringolo" <emaringolo(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > I would use "Evaluate". And even go a little bit further, and propose > a rename of "DoIt" to "Evaluate". > > The command line handler is "EvaluateCommandLineHandler". > > Dolphin used "evaluate", it feels natural even for not-native English > speakers like me. > > Also, REPL stands for read-EVAL-print-loop. So eval is an widely > accepted term to run a chunk of code. > > Regards. > Esteban A. Maringolo > > > 2014-07-15 14:20 GMT-03:00 Ben Coman <btc(a)openinworld.com>: >> >> Mostly I take for granted that "DoIt" has always been the way to evaluate >> things with Smalltalk, however I find it awkward to use in writing a >> tutorial. Some examples... * After saving, select "Grid new" and "DoIt" -- >> this sounds awkward, and even that you might need select the latter as well. >> * After saving, "Grid new" DoIt. -- doesn't read nice >> * After saving, DoIt to "Grid new." -- worst of all >> >> I'd feel better writing something like this... >> * After saving, evaluate "Grid new". >> but "evaluate" is not an item in the menus. I think actually many people >> talk this way with the implicit convention that "evaluate" means "DoIt". >> >> So first, does anyone have a good way to compose sentences using "DoIt". >> Second, how evil would it be to change the menus from "DoIt" to "Evaluate" >> and so avoid the implicit convention. >> >> cheers -ben > <dolphin-evaluate.png>

July 15, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Interactive Notebook

by stepharo

Thierry I can tell you that I got a demo made by gary chambers and this is impressive and all done in Pharo. In addition with the new text model, it will really change the situation. Stef On 15/7/14 13:33, Goubier Thierry wrote: > I'm scanning a bit among scientific / computation languages (including > GUIs) and I'd like to know if some work has been done on interactive > notebooks gui concepts? > > I'm thinking of something like: http://ipython.org/notebook.html > > I know that the Pharo text editing capabilities are not up to that > kind of job, but I'd like to know if some would be interested in being > able to interact via that kind of development environment. > > Thierry

July 15, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] consideration of Smalltalk "DoIt"

by Esteban A. Maringolo

I would use "Evaluate". And even go a little bit further, and propose a rename of "DoIt" to "Evaluate". The command line handler is "EvaluateCommandLineHandler". Dolphin used "evaluate", it feels natural even for not-native English speakers like me. Also, REPL stands for read-EVAL-print-loop. So eval is an widely accepted term to run a chunk of code. Regards. Esteban A. Maringolo 2014-07-15 14:20 GMT-03:00 Ben Coman <btc(a)openinworld.com>: > > Mostly I take for granted that "DoIt" has always been the way to evaluate > things with Smalltalk, however I find it awkward to use in writing a > tutorial. Some examples... * After saving, select "Grid new" and "DoIt" -- > this sounds awkward, and even that you might need select the latter as well. > * After saving, "Grid new" DoIt. -- doesn't read nice > * After saving, DoIt to "Grid new." -- worst of all > > I'd feel better writing something like this... > * After saving, evaluate "Grid new". > but "evaluate" is not an item in the menus. I think actually many people > talk this way with the implicit convention that "evaluate" means "DoIt". > > So first, does anyone have a good way to compose sentences using "DoIt". > Second, how evil would it be to change the menus from "DoIt" to "Evaluate" > and so avoid the implicit convention. > > cheers -ben > > >

July 15, 2014

consideration of Smalltalk "DoIt"

by Ben Coman

Mostly I take for granted that "DoIt" has always been the way to evaluate things with Smalltalk, however I find it awkward to use in writing a tutorial. Some examples... * After saving, select "Grid new" and "DoIt" -- this sounds awkward, and even that you might need select the latter as well. * After saving, "Grid new" DoIt. -- doesn't read nice * After saving, DoIt to "Grid new." -- worst of all I'd feel better writing something like this... * After saving, evaluate "Grid new". but "evaluate" is not an item in the menus. I think actually many people talk this way with the implicit convention that "evaluate" means "DoIt". So first, does anyone have a good way to compose sentences using "DoIt". Second, how evil would it be to change the menus from "DoIt" to "Evaluate" and so avoid the implicit convention. cheers -ben

July 15, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Interactive Notebook

by Goubier Thierry

I've never seen that in VW. But your feedback is interesting; maybe there is something to look at. I wonder if looking at some of the GTPlayground stuff with another angle could be interesting (i.e. page approach) or simply study what could be done if we could capture a task by embedding morphs inside the text. I feel like the notebook concept in itself is poor in that you have to interact with the program objects via the command line (i.e. the language console; be it R or Python, or Mathlab) and that is certainly inferior to the ability to select and run anywhere, inspect, explore, playground stuff. Le 15/07/2014 17:21, Nicolas Cellier a Ã©crit : > We had this kind of workbook 20 years ago in VW with mathematical > formulae and graphics (plot) embedded. > What we did was to avoid continous scrolling of the whole document, but > rather have the plan of the document on the left pane of the notebook > (just an indented tree like word navigation mode), and the text on the > right pane for only the currently selected chapter (in a way, it's a lot > like the source code browser). This way, no need to compose very large > Text in Smalltalk (I also doubt our editors really scale). > Then we could output a static view in PostScript or LaTeX. > > The greatest limitation IMO was not really the UI, but the principle of > the Notebook itself: we soon needed to access the results of previous > chunks of code, and we implemented this with an environment (understand > some global variables). > From software quality POV, working with such global vars is very > disappointing and does not really scale either. > > The second limitation of the workbook is that, while it's very good for > small projects (like maybe we can have in school), it's not the right > tool for producing documents with a synthesis of the results, which > remain the main added value of humans, so which was what we were asked for. > > However I'm still curious how far we can go with those notebooks, > because the idea is seducing. Maybe it was our own usage which was bad... Thierry -- Thierry Goubier CEA list Laboratoire des Fondations des SystÃ¨mes Temps RÃ©el EmbarquÃ©s 91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex France Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95

July 15, 2014