June 2014 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] news from block :)

by David T. Lewis

On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 11:15:37PM +0300, kilon alios wrote: > > But for me Morphic is the most beautiful Graphics API I have ever > worked with. > It's nice to see someone say something positive in appreciation of Morphic. It is quite a remarkable environment if you stop and think about it :-) Dave

June 11, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] PharoVM with latests changes

by Stephan Eggermont

Nice work, Esteban. I can no longer reproduce 11130 :) Stephan

June 11, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] [Vm-dev] Re: PharoVM with latests changes

by Esteban Lorenzano

On 11 Jun 2014, at 18:13, phil(a)highoctane.be wrote: > Where are the sources to be found ? pharo-vm on GitHub? as always: github. > Also, there is a seemingly dead "develop" branch. yeahâ¦ is dead. > What exactly is the status of those branches? which ones? (besides master and develop, I mean) Esteban > > TIA > Phil > > On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 10:29 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > Great work Esteban, this is really important work. Thanks a lot ! > > On 11 Jun 2014, at 22:16, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > Soâ¦ last days Iâve been working in new versions of the PharoVM based in latest Eliot sources. > > New vmâs can be found at: > > > > http://files.pharo.org/vm/pharo/ > > http://files.pharo.org/vm/pharoS/ > > > > under âlatest.zipâ > > > > and you can also take it from zeroconf using âvmLatestâ > > > > and here is an explanation of what this work is so annoying: > > > > http://smallworks.eu/web/blog/2014-06-11-fighting-entropy > > > > So, please test, report, etc. > > > > Expectations: Everything is solved (including the annoying âsmall int bugâ) and even faster than before. > > Realistic expectations: Everything works fine, we are aligned to latest sources, and now I can start working on the SpurVM implementation. > > > > Cheers, > > Esteban > > >

June 11, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] PharoVM with latests changes

by phil＠highoctane.be

Where are the sources to be found ? pharo-vm on GitHub? Also, there is a seemingly dead "develop" branch. What exactly is the status of those branches? TIA Phil On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 10:29 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > Great work Esteban, this is really important work. Thanks a lot ! > > On 11 Jun 2014, at 22:16, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > Soâ¦ last days Iâve been working in new versions of the PharoVM based in > latest Eliot sources. > > New vmâs can be found at: > > > > http://files.pharo.org/vm/pharo/ > > http://files.pharo.org/vm/pharoS/ > > > > under âlatest.zipâ > > > > and you can also take it from zeroconf using âvmLatestâ > > > > and here is an explanation of what this work is so annoying: > > > > http://smallworks.eu/web/blog/2014-06-11-fighting-entropy > > > > So, please test, report, etc. > > > > Expectations: Everything is solved (including the annoying âsmall int > bugâ) and even faster than before. > > Realistic expectations: Everything works fine, we are aligned to latest > sources, and now I can start working on the SpurVM implementation. > > > > Cheers, > > Esteban > > >

June 11, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] news from block :)

by Alain Plantec

Hi Doru, all Bloc (and not Block). It is stored in Smaltalkhub. MCHttpRepository location: 'http://smalltalkhub.com/mc/AlainPlantec/Bloc/main' user: '' password: '' You can use the world menu to create and switch to a Bloc world and come back to a Morphic one. The idea is to clean and deeply redesign everything. So far, only the basic Morph hierarchy is remade. We do not have a lot of time to work on it so we progress slowly. Cheers Alain On 11 juin 2014, at 22:11, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: > I would be interested in trying to play with Block. Is it available? > > Cheers, > Doru > > > On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 9:55 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > On 11 Jun 2014, at 16:39, kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> excellent news. I really believe in Morphic and I really like its general design. If you we can clean the mud I am sure we will discover quite a diamond underneath. Thanks. > > which general design? the pattern in which is based? thatâs not enough to keep it :) > Sorry but there is no easy/efficient way to clean it. > The only way to clean Morphic is to reimplement it. > Clean it is just too much workâ¦ and too many design decisions where made that time and patches made them obsolete or not correct. > Not to talk about the mix of concepts (bah, the no existence of separation between them). > > Block is not a clean. Is a revamp. > > No offence intended to Morphic: no matter how good was at the beginning, *every* system evolves up to a point the effort required to maintain it is superior to the effort required to reimplement it (with all the experience as a superior step). > (yeah, yeahâ¦ a lot of people will disagree. But time has proven me rightâ¦ and will continue doing it :P) > > Esteban > >> >> >> On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 10:25 PM, FranÃ§ois Stephany <tulipe.moutarde(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> \o/ >> >> >> On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 4:23 PM, Camille Teruel <camille.teruel(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> On 11 juin 2014, at 15:31, FranÃ§ois Stephany <tulipe.moutarde(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> What is bloc ? >>> I've searched in the pharo-dev list but couldn't find it :/ >> >> A Morphic clean/revamp lead by Alain and Stef. >> >>> >>> On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 2:26 PM, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: >>> looks so exciting... >>> >>> From: Alain Plantec <alain.plantec(a)univ-brest.fr> >>> Subject: Bloc news >>> Date: 11 Jun 2014 14:10:29 GMT+2 >>> To: StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> >>> Cc: Alain Plantec <alain.plantec(a)univ-brest.fr> >>> >>> Name: Bloc-Core-AlainPlantec.15 >>> Author: AlainPlantec >>> Time: 11 June 2014, 2:07:16.813171 pm >>> UUID: d58ae82e-b5dd-41d9-bc31-a48c3e9e5cf1 >>> Ancestors: Bloc-Core-AlainPlantec.14 >>> >>> - BlMorphs manage their submorphs with local coordinate. >>> - Drawing and drag&drop has been adapted to local coordinate >>> - Consequence: TransformationMorph should not be useful anymore because each morph has its own transform (not only TransformationMorph). Each morph uses its own transform to declare changed portions of its bounds and to draw its submorphs. >>> - The world is no more a special morph: >>> - the hand is owned by the space >>> - the canvas and the display/redisplay of morphs are space responsibilities. >>> This open the door to several worlds per space. >>> >>> Now the current global redrawing mechanism efficiency is not obvious. >>> Next actions: >>> - try to localize as much as possible the redrawing of morphs, >>> - dig several Worlds for a space >>> - start to comment and write a separate documentation with the help of Stephane :) >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > > > > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "Every thing has its own flow"

June 11, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] PharoVM with latests changes

by Tudor Girba

Thanks. I started to use it on Mac. Doru On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 10:16 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hi, > > Soâ¦ last days Iâve been working in new versions of the PharoVM based in > latest Eliot sources. > New vmâs can be found at: > > http://files.pharo.org/vm/pharo/ > http://files.pharo.org/vm/pharoS/ > > under âlatest.zipâ > > and you can also take it from zeroconf using âvmLatestâ > > and here is an explanation of what this work is so annoying: > > http://smallworks.eu/web/blog/2014-06-11-fighting-entropy > > So, please test, report, etc. > > Expectations: Everything is solved (including the annoying âsmall int > bugâ) and even faster than before. > Realistic expectations: Everything works fine, we are aligned to latest > sources, and now I can start working on the SpurVM implementation. > > Cheers, > Esteban > -- www.tudorgirba.com "Every thing has its own flow"

June 11, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] news from block :)

by kilon alios

well if you keep the overall design of morphic or even improve it. I have no complain and you have my full support. I thought that you wanted to remove Morphic and make Spec the standard design for Pharo. I know what neither Athens or Roassal is a replacement for Morphic. I remember once I took a look at TreeMorph and I was shaking my head with sadness, it was really bad :D So yes Morphic is very messy. I also don't claim, just for the record, that the above libraries are not very useful and that I am not happy that are around and I can use them. I really appreciate people hard work and I am definitely try to learn as much as my limited free time allows me to. Maybe if you sit down and build a roadmap on the direction you want to go as a community on the GUI front this will help people contribute as it will set a clear goal for them. On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 11:25 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > On 11 Jun 2014, at 17:15, kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Yes personally I really like the overall design of a morph embedding nice > and easily inside another morph and everything made up of morphs. I like > the idea of hand , world , etc. > > I try to like Spec, but it looks to me quite confusing, I tried to follow > the tutorial but I cant understand its design and why so many methods are > needed to setup a spec widget. I also dislike the use or pragmas. I will > continue learning it but I don't prefer it over Morphic for now. AFAIK > apart from Spec and Morphic there is no other choice. > > > Spec is not an alternative to Morphic, is a superset (a way to nicely > build widget components). > So apart from *Morphic*, you do not have any other choice :) > > > I also have hard time understanding Roassal and Athens. With Morphic its > hard at times to figure out whats going on but at least it took very little > time to understand the overall design. > > > Same here. None of them are replacementsâ¦ is a framework for > visualisations (in the case of Roassal) and a framework for drawing (in > case of Athens). One is on top of Morphic and the other is below it (you > can do morphs that are drawn with Athens). > > > I don't have a problem with Pharo abandoning Morphic. Afterally you all > use Pharo far more than I do. I will continue learning Spec, Roassal and > Athens. But for me Morphic is the most beautiful Graphics API I have ever > worked with. > > > We are not moving out from Morphic any time soon. > Also, moving from an implementation of Morphic does not means we are going > to refuse his general design or all the cool experience we accumulated in > the time. > Think on morphic and block like with Battlestar Galactica from 1978 and > 2003: Same general design, but a complete âre-imaginedâ taking with us all > we learned in the mean time :) > > > > On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 10:55 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > >> >> On 11 Jun 2014, at 16:39, kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> excellent news. I really believe in Morphic and I really like its general >> design. If you we can clean the mud I am sure we will discover quite a >> diamond underneath. Thanks. >> >> >> which general design? the pattern in which is based? thatâs not enough to >> keep it :) >> Sorry but there is no easy/efficient way to clean it. >> The only way to clean Morphic is to reimplement it. >> Clean it is just too much workâ¦ and too many design decisions where made >> that time and patches made them obsolete or not correct. >> Not to talk about the mix of concepts (bah, the no existence of >> separation between them). >> >> Block is not a clean. Is a revamp. >> >> No offence intended to Morphic: no matter how good was at the beginning, >> *every* system evolves up to a point the effort required to maintain it is >> superior to the effort required to reimplement it (with all the experience >> as a superior step). >> (yeah, yeahâ¦ a lot of people will disagree. But time has proven me rightâ¦ >> and will continue doing it :P) >> >> Esteban >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 10:25 PM, FranÃ§ois Stephany < >> tulipe.moutarde(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> \o/ >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 4:23 PM, Camille Teruel < >>> camille.teruel(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> On 11 juin 2014, at 15:31, FranÃ§ois Stephany <tulipe.moutarde(a)gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> What is bloc ? >>>> >>>> I've searched in the pharo-dev list but couldn't find it :/ >>>> >>>> >>>> A Morphic clean/revamp lead by Alain and Stef. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 2:26 PM, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: >>>> >>>>> looks so exciting... >>>>> >>>>> From: Alain Plantec <alain.plantec(a)univ-brest.fr> >>>>> Subject: Bloc news >>>>> Date: 11 Jun 2014 14:10:29 GMT+2 >>>>> To: StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> >>>>> Cc: Alain Plantec <alain.plantec(a)univ-brest.fr> >>>>> >>>>> Name: Bloc-Core-AlainPlantec.15 >>>>> Author: AlainPlantec >>>>> Time: 11 June 2014, 2:07:16.813171 pm >>>>> UUID: d58ae82e-b5dd-41d9-bc31-a48c3e9e5cf1 >>>>> Ancestors: Bloc-Core-AlainPlantec.14 >>>>> >>>>> - BlMorphs manage their submorphs with local coordinate. >>>>> - Drawing and drag&drop has been adapted to local coordinate >>>>> - Consequence: TransformationMorph should not be useful anymore >>>>> because each morph has its own transform (not only TransformationMorph). >>>>> Each morph uses its own transform to declare changed portions of its bounds >>>>> and to draw its submorphs. >>>>> - The world is no more a special morph: >>>>> - the hand is owned by the space >>>>> - the canvas and the display/redisplay of morphs are space >>>>> responsibilities. >>>>> This open the door to several worlds per space. >>>>> >>>>> Now the current global redrawing mechanism efficiency is not obvious. >>>>> Next actions: >>>>> - try to localize as much as possible the redrawing of morphs, >>>>> - dig several Worlds for a space >>>>> - start to comment and write a separate documentation with the help of >>>>> Stephane :) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> > >

June 11, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] PharoVM with latests changes

by Esteban A. Maringolo

Thank you! I'm downloading it right now. Esteban A. Maringolo 2014-06-11 17:16 GMT-03:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com>: > Hi, > > Soâ¦ last days Iâve been working in new versions of the PharoVM based in > latest Eliot sources. > New vmâs can be found at: > > http://files.pharo.org/vm/pharo/ > http://files.pharo.org/vm/pharoS/ > > under âlatest.zipâ > > and you can also take it from zeroconf using âvmLatestâ > > and here is an explanation of what this work is so annoying: > > http://smallworks.eu/web/blog/2014-06-11-fighting-entropy > > So, please test, report, etc. > > Expectations: Everything is solved (including the annoying âsmall int bugâ) > and even faster than before. > Realistic expectations: Everything works fine, we are aligned to latest > sources, and now I can start working on the SpurVM implementation. > > Cheers, > Esteban

June 11, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] PharoVM with latests changes

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

Great work Esteban, this is really important work. Thanks a lot ! On 11 Jun 2014, at 22:16, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hi, > > Soâ¦ last days Iâve been working in new versions of the PharoVM based in latest Eliot sources. > New vmâs can be found at: > > http://files.pharo.org/vm/pharo/ > http://files.pharo.org/vm/pharoS/ > > under âlatest.zipâ > > and you can also take it from zeroconf using âvmLatestâ > > and here is an explanation of what this work is so annoying: > > http://smallworks.eu/web/blog/2014-06-11-fighting-entropy > > So, please test, report, etc. > > Expectations: Everything is solved (including the annoying âsmall int bugâ) and even faster than before. > Realistic expectations: Everything works fine, we are aligned to latest sources, and now I can start working on the SpurVM implementation. > > Cheers, > Esteban

June 11, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] news from block :)

by Esteban Lorenzano

On 11 Jun 2014, at 17:15, kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Yes personally I really like the overall design of a morph embedding nice and easily inside another morph and everything made up of morphs. I like the idea of hand , world , etc. > > I try to like Spec, but it looks to me quite confusing, I tried to follow the tutorial but I cant understand its design and why so many methods are needed to setup a spec widget. I also dislike the use or pragmas. I will continue learning it but I don't prefer it over Morphic for now. AFAIK apart from Spec and Morphic there is no other choice. Spec is not an alternative to Morphic, is a superset (a way to nicely build widget components). So apart from *Morphic*, you do not have any other choice :) > > I also have hard time understanding Roassal and Athens. With Morphic its hard at times to figure out whats going on but at least it took very little time to understand the overall design. Same here. None of them are replacementsâ¦ is a framework for visualisations (in the case of Roassal) and a framework for drawing (in case of Athens). One is on top of Morphic and the other is below it (you can do morphs that are drawn with Athens). > > I don't have a problem with Pharo abandoning Morphic. Afterally you all use Pharo far more than I do. I will continue learning Spec, Roassal and Athens. But for me Morphic is the most beautiful Graphics API I have ever worked with. We are not moving out from Morphic any time soon. Also, moving from an implementation of Morphic does not means we are going to refuse his general design or all the cool experience we accumulated in the time. Think on morphic and block like with Battlestar Galactica from 1978 and 2003: Same general design, but a complete âre-imaginedâ taking with us all we learned in the mean time :) > > > On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 10:55 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > On 11 Jun 2014, at 16:39, kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> excellent news. I really believe in Morphic and I really like its general design. If you we can clean the mud I am sure we will discover quite a diamond underneath. Thanks. > > which general design? the pattern in which is based? thatâs not enough to keep it :) > Sorry but there is no easy/efficient way to clean it. > The only way to clean Morphic is to reimplement it. > Clean it is just too much workâ¦ and too many design decisions where made that time and patches made them obsolete or not correct. > Not to talk about the mix of concepts (bah, the no existence of separation between them). > > Block is not a clean. Is a revamp. > > No offence intended to Morphic: no matter how good was at the beginning, *every* system evolves up to a point the effort required to maintain it is superior to the effort required to reimplement it (with all the experience as a superior step). > (yeah, yeahâ¦ a lot of people will disagree. But time has proven me rightâ¦ and will continue doing it :P) > > Esteban > >> >> >> On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 10:25 PM, FranÃ§ois Stephany <tulipe.moutarde(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> \o/ >> >> >> On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 4:23 PM, Camille Teruel <camille.teruel(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> On 11 juin 2014, at 15:31, FranÃ§ois Stephany <tulipe.moutarde(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> What is bloc ? >>> I've searched in the pharo-dev list but couldn't find it :/ >> >> A Morphic clean/revamp lead by Alain and Stef. >> >>> >>> On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 2:26 PM, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: >>> looks so exciting... >>> >>> From: Alain Plantec <alain.plantec(a)univ-brest.fr> >>> Subject: Bloc news >>> Date: 11 Jun 2014 14:10:29 GMT+2 >>> To: StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> >>> Cc: Alain Plantec <alain.plantec(a)univ-brest.fr> >>> >>> Name: Bloc-Core-AlainPlantec.15 >>> Author: AlainPlantec >>> Time: 11 June 2014, 2:07:16.813171 pm >>> UUID: d58ae82e-b5dd-41d9-bc31-a48c3e9e5cf1 >>> Ancestors: Bloc-Core-AlainPlantec.14 >>> >>> - BlMorphs manage their submorphs with local coordinate. >>> - Drawing and drag&drop has been adapted to local coordinate >>> - Consequence: TransformationMorph should not be useful anymore because each morph has its own transform (not only TransformationMorph). Each morph uses its own transform to declare changed portions of its bounds and to draw its submorphs. >>> - The world is no more a special morph: >>> - the hand is owned by the space >>> - the canvas and the display/redisplay of morphs are space responsibilities. >>> This open the door to several worlds per space. >>> >>> Now the current global redrawing mechanism efficiency is not obvious. >>> Next actions: >>> - try to localize as much as possible the redrawing of morphs, >>> - dig several Worlds for a space >>> - start to comment and write a separate documentation with the help of Stephane :) >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > >

June 11, 2014