June 2014 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] Pharo and Amber relationship

by Yuriy Tymchuk

Thatâs why there is still no 1.0 version. Letâs be hones Pharo was forked from Squeak and now has a lot of developers. Amber is made from scratch and only a few guys are developing it. Everyone is welcome to join as always :) Uko On 26 Jun 2014, at 12:18, kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > One of things that very much annoy me with Amber is its installation , if Pharo is installation heaven because it does not need an install , installation of Amber is far from ideal especially if you are not familiar with web dev. Also amber is still stuck with the old IDE which is quite limited and quite ugly not easy to use. Helios however is shaping up to a great IDE and even though it still has a long way to go to reach Pharo features its definetly cleaner and better in some areas. > > I am not an experienced amber developer or pharo developer by any means but my opinion is that even though amber claims that it tries to be compatible with Pharo , that's is more a side feature than a main goal. Integration wise something like Seaside seems like a much nicer option and it integrates very deeply with Pharo. I see amber more like competition to Pharo than a cooperative tool, which is not a bad thing at all, I could see myself dropping Pharo for Amber if the IDE gets more powerful. Amber developers have definitely done a very good job so far, > > Another thing I am missing is the pharo debugger. I assume that the debugger has a lot of work , maybe years of development till it can be at the same level as pharo debugger. > > I also dislike the fact that amber does not produce readable javascript code. > > I know for many people amber as front end and pharo as back end is the way to go. But the reality is that javascript with the success of node.js has conquered back end library wise. So if amber manages to provide a very good IDE and a good debugger, it will be extremely hard to choose Pharo over Amber even for desktop apps. Afterall the days that an internet browser was just for browsing the internet are long gone for good. > > I know I will sound like a heretic , but I think its in the interest of Pharo community to support Amber. Html/js looks to me like an ever expanding market and I see less and less people going back to coding just for desktop. This is also the direction most languages go towards as well. I dislike many things about web development but I cannot be any less that shocked with the amount of evolution of javascript, internet browsers , html , css and the myriads of third party libraries. If not amber, then another way to allow Pharo nice , modern and clean access to web technologies. Maybe Seaside is more than enough, or maybe there better ways to integrate amber wth pharo or maybe there is a third party tool that I am not aware of. > > In any case I will follow this thread with great interest because the answer is important to me too. > > > On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 11:10 AM, Torsten Bergmann <astares(a)gmx.de> wrote: > Hi, > > as I read somewhere that Amber want to stay compatible > with Pharo (at least with the core classes) I wonder > how this compatibility is measured/enforced these days. > > Are there tools to exchange code between the two? > > I also wonder if what would be necessary to run Amber on > Java Nashorn (a JS engine that comes with the JDK 8). > Could serve as a horse to also run on JVM... > > Why I'm asking: I think one of our goals should be to > make Pharo more widely usable to not end up as an island. > > If Pharo and Amber stay compatible to a certain amount > Amber could open the door for Pharo to other target platforms > (browser, mobile devices, other language runtimes) as > JS is available nearly everywhere. > > Thx > T. > > >

June 26, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] about ~=

by Christophe Demarey

Le 26 juin 2014 Ã 12:46, Nicolas Cellier a Ã©crit : > $! is not classified as a binary character right now, is it? > Of course it's possible but I'd just say why this particular symbol? > It does not look mathematical either. Or do you love C/C++ so much? Of course not. It is just because it is something widely used but other names could do the stuff like <> or /= > Note that ~= has same meaning in Matlab. > > There are other possibilities like /= or <> (Fortran 95, ADA), even the long form =/=. > > But frankly, I don't buy this kind of change, for the sake of looking like some {} language, making such a deep change is overkill. Indeed it is a deep change but maybe at least we could have an alias and use it for all new code. At a time, it will be less painful to do this change. As expressed in another thread, Smalltalk code convention for method naming strategy is intention revealing. That said, I think ~= is not intention revealing and it will be good to fix or propose a good alternative.

June 26, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] about ~=

by Nicolas Cellier

$! is not classified as a binary character right now, is it? Of course it's possible but I'd just say why this particular symbol? It does not look mathematical either. Or do you love C/C++ so much? Note that ~= has same meaning in Matlab. There are other possibilities like /= or <> (Fortran 95, ADA), even the long form =/=. But frankly, I don't buy this kind of change, for the sake of looking like some {} language, making such a deep change is overkill. In any case, a big -1 for != 2014-06-26 10:47 GMT+02:00 Max Leske <maxleske(a)gmail.com>: > > On 26.06.2014, at 10:15, Christophe Demarey <Christophe.Demarey(a)inria.fr> > wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > I would like to make a suggestion that may lead to a long debate but > let's go: What do you think about deprecating ~= and replace it with != for > example? > > Why? In mathematics the symbol ~ is used for equivalence. To me (and I > think any newcomer to Smalltalk) the first guess of the meaning of ~= is > equivalent to => missed. The meaning is totally different: "Answer whether > the receiver and the argument do not represent the same object.â > > +1 > But then I also want to suggest #!== for negating identity. > > > > > I never used this method because it is too confusing for me. I prefer to > use (a = b) not or (a = b) ifFalse:. > > So, the discussion is open ... > > > > Christophe > > >

June 26, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Pharo and Amber relationship

by kilon alios

One of things that very much annoy me with Amber is its installation , if Pharo is installation heaven because it does not need an install , installation of Amber is far from ideal especially if you are not familiar with web dev. Also amber is still stuck with the old IDE which is quite limited and quite ugly not easy to use. Helios however is shaping up to a great IDE and even though it still has a long way to go to reach Pharo features its definetly cleaner and better in some areas. I am not an experienced amber developer or pharo developer by any means but my opinion is that even though amber claims that it tries to be compatible with Pharo , that's is more a side feature than a main goal. Integration wise something like Seaside seems like a much nicer option and it integrates very deeply with Pharo. I see amber more like competition to Pharo than a cooperative tool, which is not a bad thing at all, I could see myself dropping Pharo for Amber if the IDE gets more powerful. Amber developers have definitely done a very good job so far, Another thing I am missing is the pharo debugger. I assume that the debugger has a lot of work , maybe years of development till it can be at the same level as pharo debugger. I also dislike the fact that amber does not produce readable javascript code. I know for many people amber as front end and pharo as back end is the way to go. But the reality is that javascript with the success of node.js has conquered back end library wise. So if amber manages to provide a very good IDE and a good debugger, it will be extremely hard to choose Pharo over Amber even for desktop apps. Afterall the days that an internet browser was just for browsing the internet are long gone for good. I know I will sound like a heretic , but I think its in the interest of Pharo community to support Amber. Html/js looks to me like an ever expanding market and I see less and less people going back to coding just for desktop. This is also the direction most languages go towards as well. I dislike many things about web development but I cannot be any less that shocked with the amount of evolution of javascript, internet browsers , html , css and the myriads of third party libraries. If not amber, then another way to allow Pharo nice , modern and clean access to web technologies. Maybe Seaside is more than enough, or maybe there better ways to integrate amber wth pharo or maybe there is a third party tool that I am not aware of. In any case I will follow this thread with great interest because the answer is important to me too. On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 11:10 AM, Torsten Bergmann <astares(a)gmx.de> wrote: > Hi, > > as I read somewhere that Amber want to stay compatible > with Pharo (at least with the core classes) I wonder > how this compatibility is measured/enforced these days. > > Are there tools to exchange code between the two? > > I also wonder if what would be necessary to run Amber on > Java Nashorn (a JS engine that comes with the JDK 8). > Could serve as a horse to also run on JVM... > > Why I'm asking: I think one of our goals should be to > make Pharo more widely usable to not end up as an island. > > If Pharo and Amber stay compatible to a certain amount > Amber could open the door for Pharo to other target platforms > (browser, mobile devices, other language runtimes) as > JS is available nearly everywhere. > > Thx > T. > > >

June 26, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Refactorings - Push down several instVars

by Stephan Eggermont

Hi Phil, You might want to take a look at the refactoring engine code. In the image it is not so well documented. The way it is used in Nautilus might help you. There used to be a RewriteTool that was designed for large scale refactorings (using regular expressions), but I don't know if that was resurrected already. Stephan

June 26, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] super initialize

by Benjamin

On 26 Jun 2014, at 11:30, Damien Cassou <damien.cassou(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 9:46 AM, Torsten Bergmann <astares(a)gmx.de> wrote: >> But the question is should we care if there may be >> in the future? > > > I think there is a lint rule that checks if #initialize calls super initialise. on instance side only Ben > > -- > Damien Cassou > http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st > > "Success is the ability to go from one failure to another without > losing enthusiasm." > Winston Churchill >

June 26, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] about ~=

by Damien Cassou

On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 11:29 AM, Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk(a)me.com> wrote: > For me ~ looks more like closeTo: so you also agree then -- Damien Cassou http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st "Success is the ability to go from one failure to another without losing enthusiasm." Winston Churchill

June 26, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] super initialize

by Damien Cassou

On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 9:46 AM, Torsten Bergmann <astares(a)gmx.de> wrote: > But the question is should we care if there may be > in the future? I think there is a lint rule that checks if #initialize calls super initialize. -- Damien Cassou http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st "Success is the ability to go from one failure to another without losing enthusiasm." Winston Churchill

June 26, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] about ~=

by Yuriy Tymchuk

For me ~ looks more like closeTo: Uko On 26 Jun 2014, at 10:15, Christophe Demarey <Christophe.Demarey(a)inria.fr> wrote: > Hi, > > I would like to make a suggestion that may lead to a long debate but let's go: What do you think about deprecating ~= and replace it with != for example? > Why? In mathematics the symbol ~ is used for equivalence. To me (and I think any newcomer to Smalltalk) the first guess of the meaning of ~= is equivalent to => missed. The meaning is totally different: "Answer whether the receiver and the argument do not represent the same object." > > I never used this method because it is too confusing for me. I prefer to use (a = b) not or (a = b) ifFalse:. > So, the discussion is open ... > > Christophe

June 26, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Cloudfork HMAC-SHA256 in System-Hashing

by FranÃ§ois Stephany

Thanks Sven! On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 10:46 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > A patch mechanism ? > > That would be cool indeed, although probably not doable in all cases. > > On 25 Jun 2014, at 10:23, Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name> wrote: > > > Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could install packages from a ticket in > the image? Something like > > > > - get 3.0 image > > - fix from issue 12345 and issue 45678 and... > > - install own own packages > > - deploy > > > > It would be so well documented :) > > > > Norbert > > > > Am 25.06.2014 um 08:47 schrieb Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu>: > > > >> I only did it in 3.0 > >> The file out is attached to the slice - it is 100% standalone > >> > >> On 25 Jun 2014, at 00:45, Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name> wrote: > >> > >>> thank you, Sven. Did you try this in 3.0, too. I would need it there! > >>> > >>> Norbert > >>> > >>>> Am 25.06.2014 um 00:11 schrieb Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu>: > >>>> > >>>> https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/13395/Add-SHA256-HashFunction > >>>> > >>>> cleaned up, documented, properly packaged. > >>>> > >>>> Passes some test vectors. > >>>> > >>>> I changed the handling of the empty stream. > >>>> > >>>>> On 24 Jun 2014, at 23:03, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> > wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> Hi Jan, > >>>>> > >>>>> I loaded just the class CFSHA256 and it worked perfectly (I didn't > expect anything else). > >>>>> > >>>>> I tried some examples from Wikipedia ( > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sha256#Examples_of_SHA-2_variants) > >>>>> > >>>>> (CFSHA256 hashMessage: 'The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy > dog') hex. > 'd7a8fbb307d7809469ca9abcb0082e4f8d5651e46d3cdb762d02d0bf37c9e592' > >>>>> > >>>>> (CFSHA256 hashMessage: 'The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy > dog.') hex. > 'ef537f25c895bfa782526529a9b63d97aa631564d5d789c2b765448c8635fb6c' > >>>>> > >>>>> So I will rename the class to SHA256, moving it to System-Hashing > and add SHA256Tests for starters. > >>>>> > >>>>> Sven > >>>>> > >>>>>> On 20 Jun 2014, at 17:01, Jan van de Sandt <jvdsandt(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Hello, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I added the SHA256 class to Cloudfork a few years ago. The class > was mostly copied from the Cryptography [1] project. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Cheers, > >>>>>> Jan. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> [1] http://www.squeaksource.com/Cryptography/ > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Fri, Jun 20, 2014 at 10:56 AM, FranÃ§ois Stephany < > tulipe.moutarde(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >>>>>> Max, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Yes, it's usable as the SHA1 package already there (without HMAC > so). I'm no expert in those stuff but I don't get "SHA256 base > implementation". Someone with more knowledge can probably tell ;) > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Sven, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> The bare minimum to load it is: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Gofer it > >>>>>> smalltalkhubUser: 'JanVanDeSandt' project: 'Cloudfork'; > >>>>>> package: 'Cloudfork-Common'; > >>>>>> package: 'Cloudfork-Pharo-Platform'; > >>>>>> load. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> The implementation is in Cloudfork-Pharo-Platform. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 6:20 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe < > sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > >>>>>> I want to have a look, if you tell me where to look... > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> On 19 Jun 2014, at 18:03, Max Leske <maxleske(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On 19.06.2014, at 17:59, FranÃ§ois Stephany < > tulipe.moutarde(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Does it make sense from a license point of view and practical > point of view to include the CloudFork HMAC-SHA256 implementation (CFSH256 > class) in the System-Hashing package (in where there's already SHA1 and > MD5) ? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Can Cloudfork HMAC-SHA256 be easily parameterized with, say, an > SHA256 base implementation? Or does it require extra stuff? In the former > case I probably wouldnât add it. In the latter case itâs open for > discussion. Personally, I think it belongs into a separate package, not > into System-Hashing. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Cheers, > >>>>>>> Max > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > >> > > > > > > >

June 26, 2014