May 2014 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] a Pharo talk from a ruby conference

by Jimmie Houchin

On 05/13/2014 10:45 AM, Craig Latta wrote: > Hoi! > > Eliot wrote: > >> Pharo isn't inspired by Smalltalk; it /is/ a Smalltalk. Trying to >> be mealy-mouthed about it and claiming inspiration, rather than >> proudly declaring its a Smalltalk is IMO as bad as apologizing for it >> being dead... We don't need to avoid the S word... > Sean later wrote: > >> ...it's a question of who you're marketing to. Since we're marketing >> to non-Smalltalkers (quite wise since 16% market penetration is the >> tipping point, and we're not there yet), clearly "Pharo is Smalltalk- >> inspired" is the thing to say. It's not any more or less true than >> the latter, just more useful in its context. > And of course, with apologies to Alan, some of us think the name > "Smalltalk" was a poor choice from day one (in 1971). Surely there are > names which are suitably "innocuous"[1] but also convey some of the > magic in "providing computer support for the creative spirit in > everyone"[2]. "Smalltalk" is a vague and anemic name. From that weak > starting point, the other baggage is even heavier (perhaps it's helpful > to think of a balloon here? :). > > I would use a new name and not mention "Smalltalk" at all unless > asked about it. At that point, I would proudly recount accomplishments. > Whenever someone just blurts out that Smalltalk is dead, I always > correct them, and it's not difficult. "Smalltalk-inspired" is a > non-starter, because it implies (in all contexts) that there isn't a > direct line of descent (there clearly is). I agree that it sounds > mealy-mouthed, disingenuous. "Smalltalk-derived" would be the honest > phrasing, and also sounds bad. Yeesh, if you have a problem with the > "Smalltalk" name, don't be the first to mention it. :) > > Let's put more energy into a concise and intriguing description. I > think the primary concepts are programming, dynamism and messaging. The > word "livecoding" seems to resonate these days. If we're going to repeat > a word twenty times, I would choose that one. :) It has a nice ring > that draws people in. When they ask what livecoding is, you can describe > dynamism, and then describe how the coding is structured (messaging, > objects, etc.). > > > thanks, > > -C > > [1] http://gagne.homedns.org/~tgagne/contrib/EarlyHistoryST.html > [2] http://tinyurl.com/25s52qd (archive.org, Ingalls) > > -- > Craig Latta > www.netjam.org > +31 6 2757 7177 (SMS ok) > + 1 415 287 3547 (no SMS) I would like to repent of my position that Pharo is Smalltalk vs. Pharo is Pharo. I have been watching videos on Self. I have also given my understanding some more thought. I do strongly dislike and argue against the Pharo is Smalltalk inspired. To me it is not accurate. As Craig said, Pharo is Smalltalk derived. It still runs Smalltalk code without conversion. It is still born from a Smalltalk. Pharo may be Self inspired or ??? inspired. But it is from Smalltalk therefore Smalltalk derived. Here is why I think it is okay to say Pharo is Pharo. And when Smalltalk is mentioned, explain that Pharo is Smalltalk derived. Pharo began as a Smalltalk with a vision to expand beyond Smalltalk-80 and add features inspired by other modern programming languages. I still believe that none of this makes Pharo not a Smalltalk. But here is why I in my current understanding would change to Pharo is Pharo. Smalltalk is a language, name, environment and implementation created by a certain group of people. Pharo is not that group of people. Pharo began with an artifact from those people. So the question could be presented, does Pharo have the right to conscript the name Smalltalk and extend its vision, implementation and meaning. Conservatively, I would say it is fairer to Pharo and to Smalltalk to let Pharo be Pharo and have liberty in its vision, implementation, definitions and marketing decisions. Just a few more thoughts to toss into the fray. Jimmie

May 13, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Alt-Space is Non-breaking S

by Eliot Miranda

On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 4:08 AM, Henrik Johansen < henrik.s.johansen(a)veloxit.no> wrote: > â¦ Which is extremely annoying when writing blocks with arguments on a > norwegian OSX keyboard. > | is Alt - 7, when I donât release the Alt key before the following space, > and a NBSP is inserted instead of a space character, which breaks both the > parser and syntax highlighting. > > When doitâing, you get the syntax error: > [ :a | Unknown character ->a ] (notice also the off-by-one indicator, > itâs not the a, but the preceding space which is unknown). > > Would it be better if NBSP were treated equally to a normal space by the > parser, or is there some keyboard binding I can revert? > I think getting the parser to accept NBSP is a really bad idea. If you want to export code to other dialects you can't rely on that happening. WTF is an accellerator key doing introducing an illegal sequence in the first place? Surely the key could insert a legal sequence? -- best, Eliot

May 13, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Immutable collections and encapsulation

by Sergi Reyner

2014-05-13 14:28 GMT+01:00 Esteban A. Maringolo <emaringolo(a)gmail.com>: > I wouldn't restrict having the option of direct manipulation of the > collection, but it is a nice thing to have covered by some LINT rules. > :) > ThatÂ´s what I meant, in a convoluted way, with "they are crazy". For me, Java is about restrictions on restrictions on restrictions, which in the end donÂ´t feel like giving me any advantage. In this case, if I want to modify the returned collection it should be my business. I may have a reason to do so. Then again, Java is not a dynamic language and so on... :) Cheers, Sergi

May 13, 2014

Roassal tips about nesting and tooltip

by Alexandre Bergel

Hi! We have prepared some new tips. If you have some particular tips you want to see, let us know... Roassal Tip #4: How to compose nesting in plain Roassal? https://www.facebook.com/ObjectProfile/photos/a.341189379300999.82969.34054… Roassal Tip #5: How to have tooltip popup other than a simple label? https://www.facebook.com/ObjectProfile/photos/a.341189379300999.82969.34054… Cheers, Alexandre -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

May 13, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Github & Pharo.org

by Esteban Lorenzano

fixed (since yesterday, but I forgot to send the mail :P) thanks for report Esteban On 13 May 2014, at 00:09, Nicolai Hess <nicolaihess(a)web.de> wrote: > link for windows vm is wrong(Custom Downloads): > > http://files.pharo.org/vm/pharo/win/Pharo-VM-linux-stable.zip > correct one: > http://files.pharo.org/vm/pharo/win/Pharo-VM-win-stable.zip > > > > > 2014-05-12 14:18 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com>: > I added it at download page: http://pharo.org/download > now we have to improve all that infrastructure :) > > Esteban > > On 03 May 2014, at 19:06, phil(a)highoctane.be wrote: > >> Am I blind or am I having a hard time spotting our stuff on GitHub from Pharo.org as well as some other properties that help us be visible? >> >> Meaning: >> >> https://github.com/orgs/pharo-project/ >> >> https://github.com/SquareBracketAssociates >> >> are very important places and aren't mentioned much. >> >> As are: https://github.com/tide-framework if someone wants to use Marina so use the Pharo power... >> >> Maybe can we add these and >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharo >> >> as well (as we bothered updating the page...) >> >> Also, in http://pharo.org/get-involved we sent people directly to the Fogbugz thing. >> >> We should mention this Penelope monkey as well: http://bugs.pharo.org/ >> >> Also, in documentation, people are doing webapps, so we need to add "Dynamic Web Development with Seaside" to http://pharo.org/documentation >> >> http://book.seaside.st/book >> >> And, we also must also add this gorgeous >> >> http://spec.st/ >> >> and Sebastian's Mapless supernice site as well. >> >> >> I do not have access to the CMS, so please some kind soul, do it :-) [or tell me how] >> >> Phil > >

May 13, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] developing games in Pharo

by Hilaire Fernandes

Le 11/05/2014 17:21, Eliot Miranda a Ã©crit : > On iPhone Apple expressly forbid JITs other than their own so until that changes the fastest VM on iPhone will be the Stack VM. When the iPad came out, I remember about anxiety in the community deploying Smalltalk application will be rejected by Apple... Hilaire -- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu

May 13, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] developing games in Pharo

by Hilaire Fernandes

Good evening, Le 11/05/2014 17:21, Eliot Miranda a Ã©crit : > Hilaire, perhaps you can tell me whether touch support is OK or whether work needs to be done in the VM? I don't really know regarding the VM. I remember Bert did some experiment with multitouch on Etoys, but I can't tell if it was a temporary VM hack for iOS or something more structured for different multitouch devices. For sure works is needed at the image level to accommodate the widget to multitouch. Hilaire -- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu

May 13, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Immutable collections and encapsulation

by David Astels

If someone uses your class by using instVarNamed, they deserve any pain that results. Your job is to publish a clean public interface to your class, their job is to use that interface. On May 13, 2014, at 10:29 AM, Chris Muller <asqueaker(a)gmail.com> wrote: > You could answer a copy of the collection, so it won't matter > internally if they try to add to it. Or you could wrap the collection > with operations too. > > However, doing that, I suppose someone could still write, "(someObject > instVarNamed: 'internalCollection') add: junk. So, why bother? > > Writing code that does nothing more than try to "protect" your > program-state from bad code elsewhere is like inflicting static-typing > on yourself. Easier to simply not write the bad code in the first > place. :) > > On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 4:53 AM, Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk(a)me.com> wrote: >> Hi, >> >> sorry if there was already this question, but I couldnât find it anywhere. >> >> Iâm looking in the OO-design concerns and it seams that Java guys are crazy about returning the collection that is used for state of an objects. The only acceptable option is returning it in the immutable wrapper. As far as I know, pharo does not have immutable collections (except from intervals and symbols). Are we missing something important, or there is a philosophy behind the building blocks we have now, and the design we come up while using them. >> >> Cheers. >> Uko >

May 13, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Immutable collections and encapsulation

by Alexandre Bergel

Well, this is not what I exactly meant: http://www.tutorialspoint.com/java/util/collections_unmodifiablelist.htm The class Collection define the method: public static <T> List<T> unmodifiableList(List<? extends T> list) It returns an instance of List. I do not think there is a type UnmodifiedList since it is difficult to type this kind of things. I think monad helps here, but I am not expert. Alexandre -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. On May 13, 2014, at 11:19 AM, Jan Vrany <jan.vrany(a)fit.cvut.cz> wrote: > On 13/05/14 15:50, Alexandre Bergel wrote: >> I got an interest some years ago, to see if Context-Oriented-Programming would help to have immutable collections. >> >> Apparently, Java supports immutability at runtime (i.e., there is no class ImmutableArrayList as far as I know). > > Actually there is. Have a look at java.util.Collections, java.util.Collections.UnmodifiableList/UnmodifiableRandomAccessList in particular. Many libraries define their own immutable collections as far as I have seen. > > There's no support for object immutability in the OpenJDK-based JVMs. > > Cheers, Jan > >> So, there is no good design for immutable collections as far as I know. I read something about that on Doug Lea web page. >> >> Cheers, >> Alexandre >> > >

May 13, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] a Pharo talk from a ruby conference

by Craig Latta

Hoi! Eliot wrote: > Pharo isn't inspired by Smalltalk; it /is/ a Smalltalk. Trying to > be mealy-mouthed about it and claiming inspiration, rather than > proudly declaring its a Smalltalk is IMO as bad as apologizing for it > being dead... We don't need to avoid the S word... Sean later wrote: > ...it's a question of who you're marketing to. Since we're marketing > to non-Smalltalkers (quite wise since 16% market penetration is the > tipping point, and we're not there yet), clearly "Pharo is Smalltalk- > inspired" is the thing to say. It's not any more or less true than > the latter, just more useful in its context. And of course, with apologies to Alan, some of us think the name "Smalltalk" was a poor choice from day one (in 1971). Surely there are names which are suitably "innocuous"[1] but also convey some of the magic in "providing computer support for the creative spirit in everyone"[2]. "Smalltalk" is a vague and anemic name. From that weak starting point, the other baggage is even heavier (perhaps it's helpful to think of a balloon here? :). I would use a new name and not mention "Smalltalk" at all unless asked about it. At that point, I would proudly recount accomplishments. Whenever someone just blurts out that Smalltalk is dead, I always correct them, and it's not difficult. "Smalltalk-inspired" is a non-starter, because it implies (in all contexts) that there isn't a direct line of descent (there clearly is). I agree that it sounds mealy-mouthed, disingenuous. "Smalltalk-derived" would be the honest phrasing, and also sounds bad. Yeesh, if you have a problem with the "Smalltalk" name, don't be the first to mention it. :) Let's put more energy into a concise and intriguing description. I think the primary concepts are programming, dynamism and messaging. The word "livecoding" seems to resonate these days. If we're going to repeat a word twenty times, I would choose that one. :) It has a nice ring that draws people in. When they ask what livecoding is, you can describe dynamism, and then describe how the coding is structured (messaging, objects, etc.). thanks, -C [1] http://gagne.homedns.org/~tgagne/contrib/EarlyHistoryST.html [2] http://tinyurl.com/25s52qd (archive.org, Ingalls) -- Craig Latta www.netjam.org +31 6 2757 7177 (SMS ok) + 1 415 287 3547 (no SMS)

May 13, 2014