May 2014 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] [ANN] Pharo3 Dark Theme is available

by GOUBIER Thierry

________________________________ De : Pharo-dev [pharo-dev-bounces(a)lists.pharo.org] de la part de Esteban Lorenzano [estebanlm(a)gmail.com] By the way, I have added a PharoExtras UIThemes project to Smalltalkhub, right in time it seems ;) yeah, the problem is that currently there are a lot of changes happening to make the dark theme possible (I removed hardcoded colors everywhere, re-direct default colors to theme everywhere, modified without any contemplation packages like Morphic*, Spec* and Nautilus*â¦ along with Polymorph* packages, of course. Yes, I had a look in the Pharo3DarkTheme package :) This is the only thing which dissuades me from using it right now :( The time for the merge to happen on my netbook is just too long... And I have to do screenshots for PharoForTheEnterprise :) Soâ¦ I need to work a lot more in polishing, ensure all continues working, make appropriate SLICES, etc. I see this as part of the âtool orientedâ direction of Pharo 4. I shared because I think the result is good enough and people can take benefit of having it (also, then people can help on making the work, he). But in any case, is not close at all of being integrable to core image, or to a standard theme project :( But it will be, it has to :) You've given us something to dream about, and to start to use to boot :) About a morphic redesign, I just had a look at Cuis to see how was their Morphic. yeah, not sure that I want to follow that path, but we need to start discussing it :) I know Alain Plaintec started to work on a new morphic, and I suppose best scenario is all community joining efforts to achieve the goal, but for that we first need to discuss/agree on a design. I've seen Alain's effort the last time I went to Brest, but I never took the time to try it. I think it's probably a good base; as it is use-driven, it is important to exercise it with the most complex Morphic / Spec GUIs we can build, which means community support. What happens now is that every morph is a HUGE ball of mud, with mixed responsibilities and many dependencies to other âlayersâ: is very famous the dependency of HandMorph with the event dispatcher (now cleaned), but that was just an example. Now it is mixed with Polymorph in a very dirty way, etc. etc. As it's easy for me to see that, it's also frightening to see how many protocols in Morphic are extensions for packages which do not exist anymore. And the complexity of all the PluggableXXX is frightening, and it introduces serious performance problems. In a ver corse grained way, I imagine a future morphic well split in his different concerns: graphic âatomsâ, skins and widgets. And with a more understandable layout API, and with simpler widgets to connect to models, and with working caching so that we don't busy lock Pharo when exploring long collections, and that Moose doesn't have to use that ugly paging tree/list morph, and ... While still keeping what made Morphic so great in the first place :) Thierry cheers, Esteban Thierry

May 1, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] New Proposal for new Pharo website - About page (with example website)

by kilon alios

If I put the language last then I would mislead people into thinking its something like Emacs. In this case an IDE that also happens to have a programming language. It will only add to the confusion. I have recommended Pharo to several people their complaints were very similar a) the gui looks weird / ugly b) documentation does not look good/dated . As a matter of fact the language is one the things people liked, together with live code of course. I think the language is one of the very strong points of Pharo and it should be promoted. It also makes the goal of Pharo clear, the language comes first. But if others agree to put the language last, I have no issue its our website , the majority should decide. I don't want to go into the whole debate of whether Pharo is this kind of Smalltalk or the other kind of Smalltalk. Again if Pharo developers decide on what kinda of Smalltalk Pharo is I am more than happy to put that into the description. But to be frank with you I find the description of the old site too vague for my taste and very confusing. I want a description that is specific, clear and foremost practical. "Immersive" does not mean anything to me, "open" again not very clear (do you mean open source ?), "live" ? sorry I dont understand what is live ? These are the questions people will ask when they see the description. Please approach this from the side of a very sceptical yet curious coder that does not share the same excitement and love as you and me about Pharo. If he read a bunch of vague words its much more likely to be put off a lot more than seeing the very efficient and practical Smalltalk syntax. I also dont believe the ~20% of Ruby, how much stuff Ruby has that Pharo does not ? I rather not compete with other languages and make people see Pharo as elitist. On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 9:25 PM, Sean P. DeNigris <sean(a)clipperadams.com>wrote: > kilon alios wrote > > Class library section as third section sounds excellent idea, please if > > you > > can give me a paragraph or anyone with experience on this. I try to add > > anything I know about Pharo but unfortunately there is still much I don't > > know. > > I think it's important to introduce the concepts in a very specific order, > most importantly with the language last (the syntax was always the least > interesting thing about Smalltalk, and it addresses concerns about turning > people off right off the bat, without hiding anything) (see > http://forum.world.st/Pharo-is-Smalltalk-and-Not-tp4757342p4757348.html) > 1. a [pick 2 or 3 of: dynamic, open, immersive, live] computing environment > (like an IDE and OS rolled into one) > 2. [appropriate adjectives] core libraries > 3. a dialect of the Smalltalk programming language > > The immersive environment of live objects is the most compelling - from a > programming standpoint, sending someone a serialized debug session, > customizing the world menu, the simplicity of adding settings, all in a > live, dynamic way; that you have a whole computer (OS + IDE + libraries) > done with ~20% of the LOC of Ruby 1.9 (without *any* tools!) and ~0.5% of > the LOC of Windows Vista; this is the blue plane idea that Smalltalk took > on > > > > ----- > Cheers, > Sean > -- > View this message in context: > http://forum.world.st/New-Proposal-for-new-Pharo-website-About-page-with-ex… > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at > Nabble.com. > >

May 1, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] a Pharo talk from a ruby conference

by Sean P. DeNigris

kilon alios wrote > "Smalltalk inspired" is reinforcing "Sorry for dead Smalltalk The more I think about it, the more I dislike Smalltalk-inspired. I think the best plan would be to: 1. Hold off for a brief moment mentioning Smalltalk at all - e.g. give a sound bite, introduce the environment and libraries, and then when we're ready to mention the language and legacy 2. Something like "Smalltalk Unleashed" or "Smalltalk Reborn" ----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/a-Pharo-talk-from-a-ruby-conference-tp4756805p4757488… Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

May 1, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] [ANN] Pharo3 Dark Theme is available

by Sean P. DeNigris

EstebanLM wrote >> About a morphic redesign... > I suppose best scenario is all community joining efforts to achieve the > goal, but for that we first need to discuss/agree on a design. Yes!!! IMHO our Morphic implementation's ocmplexity is the biggest thing holding back our creative spirit. It seems that many other things have been cleared out of our way and now is the time to make this happen. I think you hit the nail right on the head: 1) all interested parties join forces - there have been too many experimental cleanups and re-implementations that are interesting but ultimately unused/unusable, and 2) start with a solid design. Morphic's power is incredible and it would be great to have that available when you need it, with all the more-business-friendly UI objects built on top. Some good places I've found ideas and insights are ARK, Self, Lively Kernel, KScript, and Cuis. ----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/ANN-Pharo3-Dark-Theme-is-available-tp4757419p4757486.… Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

May 1, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] [ANN]: Little NeoJSON Helper

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

It is on my list ... On 01 May 2014, at 20:03, Sean P. DeNigris <sean(a)clipperadams.com> wrote: > I'd like for Sven to take a look and see if it's generally useful and > well-designed, but sure... > > > > ----- > Cheers, > Sean > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/ANN-Little-NeoJSON-Helper-tp4756763p4757481.html > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >

May 1, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] New Proposal for new Pharo website - About page (with example website)

by Sean P. DeNigris

kilon alios wrote > Class library section as third section sounds excellent idea, please if > you > can give me a paragraph or anyone with experience on this. I try to add > anything I know about Pharo but unfortunately there is still much I don't > know. I think it's important to introduce the concepts in a very specific order, most importantly with the language last (the syntax was always the least interesting thing about Smalltalk, and it addresses concerns about turning people off right off the bat, without hiding anything) (see http://forum.world.st/Pharo-is-Smalltalk-and-Not-tp4757342p4757348.html) 1. a [pick 2 or 3 of: dynamic, open, immersive, live] computing environment (like an IDE and OS rolled into one) 2. [appropriate adjectives] core libraries 3. a dialect of the Smalltalk programming language The immersive environment of live objects is the most compelling - from a programming standpoint, sending someone a serialized debug session, customizing the world menu, the simplicity of adding settings, all in a live, dynamic way; that you have a whole computer (OS + IDE + libraries) done with ~20% of the LOC of Ruby 1.9 (without *any* tools!) and ~0.5% of the LOC of Windows Vista; this is the blue plane idea that Smalltalk took on ----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/New-Proposal-for-new-Pharo-website-About-page-with-ex… Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

May 1, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] [ANN]: Little NeoJSON Helper

by Sean P. DeNigris

I'd like for Sven to take a look and see if it's generally useful and well-designed, but sure... ----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/ANN-Little-NeoJSON-Helper-tp4756763p4757481.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

May 1, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] [ANN] Pharo3 Dark Theme is available

by Esteban Lorenzano

On 01 May 2014, at 18:43, GOUBIER Thierry <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr> wrote: > Bravo Esteban! merci :) > > By the way, I have added a PharoExtras UIThemes project to Smalltalkhub, right in time it seems ;) yeah, the problem is that currently there are a lot of changes happening to make the dark theme possible (I removed hardcoded colors everywhere, re-direct default colors to theme everywhere, modified without any contemplation packages like Morphic*, Spec* and Nautilus*â¦ along with Polymorph* packages, of course. Soâ¦ I need to work a lot more in polishing, ensure all continues working, make appropriate SLICES, etc. I see this as part of the âtool orientedâ direction of Pharo 4. I shared because I think the result is good enough and people can take benefit of having it (also, then people can help on making the work, he). But in any case, is not close at all of being integrable to core image, or to a standard theme project :( But it will be, it has to :) > > About a morphic redesign, I just had a look at Cuis to see how was their Morphic. yeah, not sure that I want to follow that path, but we need to start discussing it :) I know Alain Plaintec started to work on a new morphic, and I suppose best scenario is all community joining efforts to achieve the goal, but for that we first need to discuss/agree on a design. What happens now is that every morph is a HUGE ball of mud, with mixed responsibilities and many dependencies to other âlayersâ: is very famous the dependency of HandMorph with the event dispatcher (now cleaned), but that was just an example. Now it is mixed with Polymorph in a very dirty way, etc. etc. In a ver corse grained way, I imagine a future morphic well split in his different concerns: graphic âatomsâ, skins and widgets. cheers, Esteban > > Thierry

May 1, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] New Proposal for new Pharo website - About page (with example website)

by kilon alios

Yes Eliot very good suggestions, I am not very familiar with the history or what Pharo adds to the Smalltalk syntax. I welcome any addition to my text , correction, modification. I am open to everything. Just post your text here and I will add it to the website. I am already in contact with esteban he likes my idea too and he said he can take the draft and integrate it inside the current new website for Pharo. Of course I would love it first if you the experienced Pharo developers improve my text so we have a very good quality website not only for begineers but also experienced coders. Class library section as third section sounds excellent idea, please if you can give me a paragraph or anyone with experience on this. I try to add anything I know about Pharo but unfortunately there is still much I don't know. Regarding other Pharo libraries they will go to the third page "The Enviroment" together with Live coding , the power of debugger and of course a basic description for the image format. Dont worry about the debugger, I decided to have a big section about it in "The Enviroment" page. Of course I can still mention it in the IDE page. On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 7:33 PM, Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda(a)gmail.com>wrote: > Hi Kilon, > > > On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 8:01 AM, kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> I have further refined the About page but not I have also created >> additional pages for "language" and "ide" >> you can click on the main page on those words because they are links to >> send to you to the corresponding page or you can access these pages from >> here >> >> "The Language" >> >> http://thekilon.wix.com/pharo-about#!language/cee5 >> > > This is really good. My criticism is that "invented in 1969" implies it > hasn't changed that much since then. It has, and one of the biggest > changes was from Smalltalk-72 to Smalltalk-76. You might instead say > something like > "conceived in 1969, and stabilizing as Smalltalk-80 in the 1980's". > > One of the things I missed on first visit was the "fast moving forward" > section. I suggest you eliminate it and put the information in the first > section. > > But there are significant language developments since then: > > - traits > - namespaces > - closures > - ByteArray literals > - method pragmas/method tags > > and more to come: > - slots > > > I would replace the third section with something on the class library, > that it is large (numbers, collections, graphics, multi-media, etc, the > more the better) and mature. > > >> >> "The IDE" >> >> http://thekilon.wix.com/pharo-about#!ide/cfvg >> > > You don't say anything about the debugger. The debugger is of course > excellent and one of the few that allows programming in the debugger. That > deserves a sentence or two surely. > > >> >> >> >> Again these are drafts WIP , with many mistake and still with room for a >> lot of improvement. >> >> The good news is that I tried the website on my mobile phone and it seems >> it works well for mobile devices too >> >> >> On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 12:36 PM, kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com>wrote: >> >>> I don't like the about page. Its still unclear what Pharo is and I have >>> to agree with the complains we are getting at reddit. >>> >>> So instead of starting a long conversation about how I would want it >>> done , I sat my ass down and made a draft of it so you can see it directly. >>> >>> Please bare in mind this is draft , I just wanted to show you my idea >>> for an About page. You can find the draft here >>> >>> http://thekilon.wix.com/pharo-about >>> >>> I think contributors should go to a seperate page called "Credit" >>> >>> I am open to comments and suggestions. >>> >> >> > > > -- > best, > Eliot >

May 1, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] [ANN] Pharo3 Dark Theme is available

by GOUBIER Thierry

Bravo Esteban! By the way, I have added a PharoExtras UIThemes project to Smalltalkhub, right in time it seems ;) About a morphic redesign, I just had a look at Cuis to see how was their Morphic. Thierry

May 1, 2014