April 2014 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] a Pharo talk from a ruby conference

by kilon alios

my pleasure I missed a couple of words he said in the video, hence my misunderstanding. As always few words are enough to turn a meaning on its head. Watched it once more and now it clear that he presented Smalltalk in a very fair manner. I also completely agree with his criticism on smalltalk of being unsafe (though the same can be said about python and ruby and C/C++ and loads of other programming languages out there) and not playing well with others. Great demo for Smalltalk, realistic and fair. On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 9:21 PM, Sebastian Sastre < sebastian(a)flowingconcept.com> wrote: > > On Apr 28, 2014, at 2:57 PM, kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Sebastian you are absolutely correct, I did not understand that he was > referring to a stereotype that ruby community has about smalltalk. I > apologize. > > > Is important that we talk these things so we understand how to break > stereotypes that arenât doing any good. > > So thanks for expressing it > >

April 28, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] a Pharo talk from a ruby conference

by Tudor Girba

Hi, I do not claim that Pharo does not look like a Smalltalk now. It does as it shares quite a bit with the model. But, I do claim that it already has distinctive characteristics that make it go away from a "classic" Smalltalk. And there will be more and more in the future. So, what is better as a communication strategy: - to say that Pharo is "a Smalltalk with traits, modular compiler, slots and moldable debugger, ... (more to come in this list)", or - to say that Pharo "is a modern Smalltalk-inspired system?" ? We are not fooling anyone. We simply state that while we respect everything that Smalltalk stands for, Pharo will not be bound to it. This is not being disrespectful, it is simply creating the premise to look at how else we can invent the future. And there is so much to invent there. Doru On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 7:56 PM, Sebastian Sastre < sebastian(a)flowingconcept.com> wrote: > > On Apr 28, 2014, at 2:20 PM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: > > That is why we talk about Pharo as a cool, modern environment and language > that is Smalltalk-inspired. > > We do not need to apologize because Pharo was never dead :). > > > nice joke > > Talking of Smalltalk-inspiredâ¦. Ruby is that, and is very successful BTW > > So, yeah, we are aware that it would be incredibly lame to try to fool > ourselves and the world by trying to sell the idea that Pharo is *not* *a > Smalltalk*. > > -- www.tudorgirba.com "Every thing has its own flow"

April 28, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] a Pharo talk from a ruby conference

by Sebastian Sastre

On Apr 28, 2014, at 2:57 PM, kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Sebastian you are absolutely correct, I did not understand that he was referring to a stereotype that ruby community has about smalltalk. I apologize. Is important that we talk these things so we understand how to break stereotypes that arenât doing any good. So thanks for expressing it

April 28, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] a Pharo talk from a ruby conference

by kilon alios

Sebastian you are absolutely correct, I did not understand that he was referring to a stereotype that ruby community has about smalltalk. I apologize. On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 8:27 PM, Sebastian Sastre < sebastian(a)flowingconcept.com> wrote: > > On Apr 28, 2014, at 1:58 PM, kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > very cool presentation. Definitely you need to add this to the new > website. > > Question : Why in every presentation we have to apologise why smalltalk is > dead / extinct ? > > Is not on video but for whatâs worth, I donât know from were you take that > impression but Iâm pretty sure that what you described in the previous > paragraph was *not* the impression the audience got from my talk. > > âDead / extinctâ for the industry is a matter of nailing it when you > expose talent and the tools that can expand it. Can you do cool projects > with it? if you do then thatâs your place, good for you, go for more, and > give something in return. > > The hard work of this community is continuing the legacy of an inspiring > legend. > > A legend that inspires them when you take the time and effort to break > with self-serving tasks and start to expose it instead > > > > As a newcomer to Smalltalk I find it quite annoying. Its not as if I came > to Smalltalk without knowing that is not popular. The vast majority of > languages out there are so more unpopular than Smalltalk, yet they don't > have this "sorry that I am dead" mentality to them. > > > > >

April 28, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] a Pharo talk from a ruby conference

by Esteban A. Maringolo

It is good when an "outsider" talks about your stuff, they have views we simply can't have because reflection is not always possible. I think he nails the point about the shift from what's become important and what not (24:45), and the monolithic or mandatory approach of Smalltalk in general, vs the small utilities working together (Mainly Rule of Composition and Rule of Diversity). http://www.catb.org/esr/writings/taoup/html/ch01s06.html I think this has to do with the fact that Smalltalk was born with a GUI, and then built down from there, instead of being born as a command line program with an added GUI layer on top. However, thank you for sharing, it is a good presentation. And I like to see the enthusiasm of other when they meet Smalltalk. The MagLev presentation is good too (http://www.confreaks.com/videos/3285-mwrc-maglev-from-download-to-deploy) Regards! Esteban A. Maringolo 2014-04-28 13:12 GMT-03:00 Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr>: > â¦ more a Smalltalk one using Pharo: > > MountainWest RubyConf 2014 > > Noel Rappin: "But Really, You Should Learn Smalltalkâ > > Smalltalk has mystique. We talk about it more than we use it. It seems like it should be so similar to Ruby. It has similar Object-Oriented structures, it even has blocks. But everything is so slightly different, from the programming environment, to the 1-based arrays, to the simple syntax. Using Smalltalk will make you look at familiar constructs with new eyes. Weâll show you how to get started on Smalltalk, and walk through some sample code. Live coding may be involved. Youâll never look at objects the same way again. > > http://www.confreaks.com/videos/3284-mwrc-but-really-you-should-learn-small…

April 28, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] a Pharo talk from a ruby conference

by Sebastian Sastre

On Apr 28, 2014, at 2:20 PM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: > That is why we talk about Pharo as a cool, modern environment and language that is Smalltalk-inspired. > > We do not need to apologize because Pharo was never dead :). nice joke Talking of Smalltalk-inspiredâ¦. Ruby is that, and is very successful BTW So, yeah, we are aware that it would be incredibly lame to try to fool ourselves and the world by trying to sell the idea that Pharo is not a Smalltalk.

April 28, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] a Pharo talk from a ruby conference

by S Krish

+1 Smalltalk heritage and its future should be carried on by "Pharo Smalltalk". On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 11:08 PM, Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda(a)gmail.com>wrote: > > > > On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 10:20 AM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com>wrote: > >> That is why we talk about Pharo as a cool, modern environment and >> language that is Smalltalk-inspired. >> > > We went through this a few months ago. Pharo isn't inspired by > Smalltalk; it /is/ a Smalltalk. Trying to be mealy-mouthed about it and > claiming inspiration, rather than proudly declaring its a Smalltalk is IMO > as bad as apologizing for it being dead. > > >> We do not need to apologize because Pharo was never dead :). >> > > We don't need to avoid the S word either... > > >> >> Doru >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 7:16 PM, Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name>wrote: >> >>> >>> Am 28.04.2014 um 18:58 schrieb kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com>: >>> >>> very cool presentation. Definitely you need to add this to the new >>> website. >>> >>> Question : Why in every presentation we have to apologise why smalltalk >>> is dead / extinct ? >>> >>> As a newcomer to Smalltalk I find it quite annoying. Its not as if I >>> came to Smalltalk without knowing that is not popular. The vast majority of >>> languages out there are so more unpopular than Smalltalk, yet they don't >>> have this "sorry that I am dead" mentality to them. >>> >>> +1 >>> >>> Well said. >>> >>> Norbert >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 7:12 PM, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr>wrote: >>> >>>> â¦ more a Smalltalk one using Pharo: >>>> >>>> MountainWest RubyConf 2014 >>>> >>>> Noel Rappin: "But Really, You Should Learn Smalltalkâ >>>> >>>> Smalltalk has mystique. We talk about it more than we use it. It seems >>>> like it should be so similar to Ruby. It has similar Object-Oriented >>>> structures, it even has blocks. But everything is so slightly different, >>>> from the programming environment, to the 1-based arrays, to the simple >>>> syntax. Using Smalltalk will make you look at familiar constructs with new >>>> eyes. Weâll show you how to get started on Smalltalk, and walk through some >>>> sample code. Live coding may be involved. Youâll never look at objects the >>>> same way again. >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.confreaks.com/videos/3284-mwrc-but-really-you-should-learn-small… >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> www.tudorgirba.com >> >> "Every thing has its own flow" >> > > > > -- > best, > Eliot >

April 28, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] a Pharo talk from a ruby conference

by Esteban A. Maringolo

2014-04-28 14:38 GMT-03:00 Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda(a)gmail.com>: > On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 10:20 AM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: >> That is why we talk about Pharo as a cool, modern environment and language >> that is Smalltalk-inspired. > We went through this a few months ago. Pharo isn't inspired by Smalltalk; > it /is/ a Smalltalk. Trying to be mealy-mouthed about it and claiming > inspiration, rather than proudly declaring its a Smalltalk is IMO as bad as > apologizing for it being dead. I totally agree here. Esteban.

April 28, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] a Pharo talk from a ruby conference

by Eliot Miranda

On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 10:20 AM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: > That is why we talk about Pharo as a cool, modern environment and language > that is Smalltalk-inspired. > We went through this a few months ago. Pharo isn't inspired by Smalltalk; it /is/ a Smalltalk. Trying to be mealy-mouthed about it and claiming inspiration, rather than proudly declaring its a Smalltalk is IMO as bad as apologizing for it being dead. > We do not need to apologize because Pharo was never dead :). > We don't need to avoid the S word either... > > Doru > > > On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 7:16 PM, Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name> wrote: > >> >> Am 28.04.2014 um 18:58 schrieb kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com>: >> >> very cool presentation. Definitely you need to add this to the new >> website. >> >> Question : Why in every presentation we have to apologise why smalltalk >> is dead / extinct ? >> >> As a newcomer to Smalltalk I find it quite annoying. Its not as if I came >> to Smalltalk without knowing that is not popular. The vast majority of >> languages out there are so more unpopular than Smalltalk, yet they don't >> have this "sorry that I am dead" mentality to them. >> >> +1 >> >> Well said. >> >> Norbert >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 7:12 PM, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr>wrote: >> >>> â¦ more a Smalltalk one using Pharo: >>> >>> MountainWest RubyConf 2014 >>> >>> Noel Rappin: "But Really, You Should Learn Smalltalkâ >>> >>> Smalltalk has mystique. We talk about it more than we use it. It seems >>> like it should be so similar to Ruby. It has similar Object-Oriented >>> structures, it even has blocks. But everything is so slightly different, >>> from the programming environment, to the 1-based arrays, to the simple >>> syntax. Using Smalltalk will make you look at familiar constructs with new >>> eyes. Weâll show you how to get started on Smalltalk, and walk through some >>> sample code. Live coding may be involved. Youâll never look at objects the >>> same way again. >>> >>> >>> http://www.confreaks.com/videos/3284-mwrc-but-really-you-should-learn-small… >>> >> >> >> > > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "Every thing has its own flow" > -- best, Eliot

April 28, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] a Pharo talk from a ruby conference

by Sebastian Sastre

On Apr 28, 2014, at 1:58 PM, kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > very cool presentation. Definitely you need to add this to the new website. > > Question : Why in every presentation we have to apologise why smalltalk is dead / extinct ? > Is not on video but for whatâs worth, I donât know from were you take that impression but Iâm pretty sure that what you described in the previous paragraph was not the impression the audience got from my talk. âDead / extinctâ for the industry is a matter of nailing it when you expose talent and the tools that can expand it. Can you do cool projects with it? if you do then thatâs your place, good for you, go for more, and give something in return. The hard work of this community is continuing the legacy of an inspiring legend. A legend that inspires them when you take the time and effort to break with self-serving tasks and start to expose it instead > As a newcomer to Smalltalk I find it quite annoying. Its not as if I came to Smalltalk without knowing that is not popular. The vast majority of languages out there are so more unpopular than Smalltalk, yet they don't have this "sorry that I am dead" mentality to them.

April 28, 2014