February 2014 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] poolDictionaries removal breaks my projects

by Pharo4Stef

Andreas did you realise that pools are just static cached version of (simple value) returning messages? >> How many lectures did you give? It is annoying to have to explain something that usually people do not need to know. > I donât give any lectures to students but I often try to âteachâ Smalltalk to some of my colleagues and friends. And with that I have hard times. > Typically âexperiencedâ software developers think about themselves as being experts in object orientation and programming languages, > even if they have only experiences with C, C# and C++. âTeachingâ them about Smalltalkâs idea of object orientation is VERY hard, almost > impossible because they already know everything (read: they are ignorant) and lazy. I guess there are some similarities to students. > So, no I donât teach but have my own problems ;-) So when you learn a new language like python do you get all the syntax to create a class as a template? Or just the non optional parts? To me smalltalk class definition forgot the be designed, else variables would have been first class objects like in CLOS MOP >>>> Newcomers donât use a lot of things but that should not be a reason to hide them. In my experience newcomers need guidance and rules but > âoldtimersâ need freedom. and? you still can use Pool even if I do not really understand why we need them since we have classes and messages. Because Pool are just a static version of that. Did I miss something obvious? Pool may have they place in 1980 to optimize for speed but I would be curious to see if a modern languages using a decent JIT would keep them. Especially since class names should be dynamically looked up. > This is one of the reasons I really enjoy dynamic typing and Smalltalk. I donât like to obey to artificial rules that only > put permanent burden to me in order to protect me from something I might do wrong sometimes. You are mixing things. So I will not comment on it. > At the moment I am considering pool dictionaries for a solution of a problem at hand: I need to collect some information (warnings, errors, and reports) over lots of related and unrelated classes. Then create a class MyRessources and define class methods and you are done. No need to use SharedPool + initialize + poolDictionaryâ¦. > For the moment I have parameters, but that is getting inconvenient with a growing number of things to collectâ¦ > So, if you need something it should be there and not necessarily obscured and hidden! Come on, do you know in EBNF the * notation zero or more or optional?. You do not write your method using all the constructs of your language, donât you? so this is the same for class definition. >>> So, a -1 for this change from my side. >> >> We just need a full class template menu item. > Yes, but itâs not there yet but this change already took away some power without giving me back something in exchange! since you are an experienced programmer this is simple. Look for trait template and send a fix to get an extra menu. I will go to sleep now but I guess that I can do that in 10 min and we are talking about making our system more accesssible to people. > I am able to ignore some parts of class creation message easily (I also donât use class variables that often) and I donât see why students > shouldnât be able, too. When is the last time you learn a new language for real? I started Python recently because I need some fresh air :) and I could define a class in 3 4 lines within 5 min. Without needing class var, static, delegator... (and if you know python you know that it can be UGLY and COMPLEX) I found blogs of people explaining wrongs some advanced features still many people are able to define a class within the 10 min they started to learn python. > Quite contrary I think if you hide these things from students they wonât see it, wonât get curious and in the end will only > learn the boring parts of Smalltalkâ¦ You are wrong and you can trust me on that. We want to make sure that people can build fast great stuff and feel good and powerful and not good because they succeeded to jump over the barriers in the middle of the way. Pharo is not an obstacle run, it should be smooth and great. Pharo is not for pedandic programmers or smalltalk bigots, it is for making people been able to build things nicely. Simplicity, simplicity, this is why one challenge for Slot is to enable super users without breaking simplicity. Stef

Feb. 1, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] subscript out of bounds in protocol creation

by Andreas Wacknitz

Hi again, Alas itâs not that easy. I made more experiments after Jordi reported that he wasnât able to reproduce the problem with my steps. On my Mac I had installed the latest stable (December 12th, 2013) PharoVM. On my Windows PC I have installed the latest stable (December 7th, 2013) PharoVM. Whereas on Mac I could reproduce the problem easily (every time I tried), itâs not happening on Windows at the moment. But I can remember having the same problem on my Windows PC. Furthermore, when using the newest PharoVM on Mac (build 304 from files.pharo.org) I donât have the problem at the moment! So the VM seems to be involvedâ¦ Regards, Andreas Am 01.02.2014 um 23:29 schrieb Pharo4Stef <pharo4Stef(a)free.fr>: > tx > > this is nice to have a reproducible case. Like take we will fix it :) > > On 01 Feb 2014, at 12:02, Andreas Wacknitz <a.wacknitz(a)gmx.de> wrote: > >> Hi Jordi and all, >> >> here is my detailed receipt with a freshly downloaded 30733.zip from Pharo files: >> >> 1. Open Nautilus >> 2. Select an arbitrary package >> 3. Select an arbitrary class from that package >> 4. Right-click in the methods panel and select âAdd protocolâ¦â from the popup menu. >> 5. Enter âprivateâ in the dialog without selecting any entry in the listbox on top. >> 6. Hit âenterâ or press âOKâ with a left-click. >> >> -> Bummer! A cascade of 3 "SubscriptOutOfBounce: 1â pre-debuggers. >> >> Regards, >> Andreas >> >> >> >> Am 01.02.2014 um 11:46 schrieb Jordi Delgado <jdelgado(a)lsi.upc.edu>: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> With a fresh image, I do that with a class randomly selected >>> (obviously, with no class selected nothing happens) and the >>> protocol gets added without problems. Then, I choose another class, >>> again I pick a random one, and after doing exactly the same the >>> error appears. Why? No clue. >>> >>> I said that the error is difficult to reproduce because sometimes >>> it appears, and sometimes not. And I am not able to ascertain the >>> circumstances under which it will pop up. >>> >>> Bests, >>> >>> Jordi >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> Am 31.01.2014 um 08:36 schrieb Jordi Delgado <jdelgado(a)lsi.upc.edu>: >>>> >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> I realized that sometimes, when creating new protocols, it appears an >>>>> error "subscript out of bounds: 1". I have not been able -yet- >>>>> to reproduce it from a clean image, but it happens often (at least >>>>> to me). It seems to me that it has something to do with protocol >>>>> creation before any method has been written, but I am still investigating. >>>>> >>>> I guess I can produce this easily :-) >>>> Just hit âAdd protocolâ¦â in the popup menu of the method protocol pane. >>>> Enter a name like âprivateâ in the dialog. And then press enter without selecting anything in the listbox above. >>>> And voilÃ â¦ >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Andreas >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> > >

Feb. 1, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] How to suck (and yet be awesome)

by Pharo4Stef

> I wish we could take one day off workâ¦ > > sit all in a room to watch this science-backed stuff: > > KATHY SIERRA: BUILDING THE MINIMUM BADASS USER, BUSINESS OF SOFTWARE. A MASTERCLASS IN THINKING ABOUT SOFTWARE PRODUCT DEVELOPMENT. > > http://businessofsoftware.org/2013/02/kathy-sierra-building-the-minimum-bad… > > I started to watch it. Tx for the pointer. > and then have face to face conversations > > I leave you with just this quote: > > People doesnât use your product because they like it or because they like you > People use your product because they like themselves > What are you doing to enable more of that? I always thought that I had a narcissic relationship with my mac :) but not with my car :) Stef

Feb. 1, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Can someone help me with this issue 12469 (Sometimes an empty protocol is created)

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

On 01 Feb 2014, at 23:03, Sean P. DeNigris <sean(a)clipperadams.com> wrote: > Nicolai Hess wrote >> Every time the slice marks the all classes and methods as changed, > > I've experienced that when viewing changes for a whole slice. If you view > the changes for each package individually instead, you should see it is > fine. Yeah, it seems to be a fluke, very confusing though. > I see Sven has created a new slice for the monkey... And it seemed to have passed.

Feb. 1, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Recruit more volunteers

by Pharo4Stef

Sebastian can you explain us what is it? Stef On 01 Feb 2014, at 18:46, Sebastian Sastre <sebastian(a)flowingconcept.com> wrote: > Smalltalk gives here only 4 hits in this site where people wanting to learn might reach the community: > http://openhatch.org/search/ > > Not Amber not Pharo not Squeak are there > > Leave a seed? > > sebastian > > o/ > > > > >

Feb. 1, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] subscript out of bounds in protocol creation

by Pharo4Stef

tx this is nice to have a reproducible case. Like take we will fix it :) On 01 Feb 2014, at 12:02, Andreas Wacknitz <a.wacknitz(a)gmx.de> wrote: > Hi Jordi and all, > > here is my detailed receipt with a freshly downloaded 30733.zip from Pharo files: > > 1. Open Nautilus > 2. Select an arbitrary package > 3. Select an arbitrary class from that package > 4. Right-click in the methods panel and select âAdd protocolâ¦â from the popup menu. > 5. Enter âprivateâ in the dialog without selecting any entry in the listbox on top. > 6. Hit âenterâ or press âOKâ with a left-click. > > -> Bummer! A cascade of 3 "SubscriptOutOfBounce: 1â pre-debuggers. > > Regards, > Andreas > > > > Am 01.02.2014 um 11:46 schrieb Jordi Delgado <jdelgado(a)lsi.upc.edu>: > >> Hi, >> >> With a fresh image, I do that with a class randomly selected >> (obviously, with no class selected nothing happens) and the >> protocol gets added without problems. Then, I choose another class, >> again I pick a random one, and after doing exactly the same the >> error appears. Why? No clue. >> >> I said that the error is difficult to reproduce because sometimes >> it appears, and sometimes not. And I am not able to ascertain the >> circumstances under which it will pop up. >> >> Bests, >> >> Jordi >> >> >> >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> Am 31.01.2014 um 08:36 schrieb Jordi Delgado <jdelgado(a)lsi.upc.edu>: >>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> I realized that sometimes, when creating new protocols, it appears an >>>> error "subscript out of bounds: 1". I have not been able -yet- >>>> to reproduce it from a clean image, but it happens often (at least >>>> to me). It seems to me that it has something to do with protocol >>>> creation before any method has been written, but I am still investigating. >>>> >>> I guess I can produce this easily :-) >>> Just hit âAdd protocolâ¦â in the popup menu of the method protocol pane. >>> Enter a name like âprivateâ in the dialog. And then press enter without selecting anything in the listbox above. >>> And voilÃ â¦ >>> >>> Regards, >>> Andreas >>> >>> >>> >> > >

Feb. 1, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] [Review]: Case 12737 Morph sends mouseUp twice to handlers

by Benjamin

I will have a look tomorrow :) (right now, with the jet lag and the very long flight, I do not trust my brain :) ) Ben On 01 Feb 2014, at 23:07, Sean P. DeNigris <sean(a)clipperadams.com> wrote: > On Feb 1, 2014, at 5:04 PM, "Benjamin Van Ryseghem-2 [via Smalltalk]" <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Do we put in in 3.0? > > > > Because changing Morphic now sounds a bit shaky to me :) > That's why I'm asking for a lot of input. But it is a bug. And I think this slice version is very unlikely to break anything - 2 lines changed. I'd at least appreciate someone taking a look. If you agree that it's a straight-forward change, I will take responsibility for getting it right or reverting. > > Cheers, > Sean > > View this message in context: Re: [Review]: Case 12737 Morph sends mouseUp twice to handlers > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Feb. 1, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] [Review]: Case 12737 Morph sends mouseUp twice to handlers

by Sean P. DeNigris

On Feb 1, 2014, at 5:04 PM, "Benjamin Van Ryseghem-2 [via Smalltalk]" <ml-node+s1294792n4740926h94(a)n4.nabble.com> wrote: > Do we put in in 3.0? > > Because changing Morphic now sounds a bit shaky to me :) That's why I'm asking for a lot of input. But it is a bug. And I think this slice version is very unlikely to break anything - 2 lines changed. I'd at least appreciate someone taking a look. If you agree that it's a straight-forward change, I will take responsibility for getting it right or reverting. ----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Review-Case-12737-Morph-sends-mouseUp-twice-to-handle… Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Feb. 1, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Can someone help me with this issue 12469 (Sometimes an empty protocol is created)

by Sean P. DeNigris

Nicolai Hess wrote > Every time the slice marks the all classes and methods as changed, I've experienced that when viewing changes for a whole slice. If you view the changes for each package individually instead, you should see it is fine. I see Sven has created a new slice for the monkey... ----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Can-someone-help-me-with-this-issue-12469-Sometimes-a… Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Feb. 1, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] [Review]: Case 12737 Morph sends mouseUp twice to handlers

by Benjamin

Do we put in in 3.0? Because changing Morphic now sounds a bit shaky to me :) Ben On 01 Feb 2014, at 22:55, Sean P. DeNigris <sean(a)clipperadams.com> wrote: > Sean P. DeNigris wrote >> https://pharo.fogbugz.com/default.asp?12737 > > I did a safer fix which is much less likely to break other things and still > fixes the problem. Two people looked at it and the monkey validated it. > Should I "Fix to include" or would a core dev like to have a quick look > first. I'm being extra cautious because it is inside Morphic... > > > > ----- > Cheers, > Sean > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Review-Case-12737-Morph-sends-mouseUp-twice-to-handle… > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >

Feb. 1, 2014