November 2014 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] Pharo is mine

by Thierry Goubier

Le 24/11/2014 22:17, kilon alios a Ã©crit : > really nice thanks, loadDevelopment did not work for me, but loadStables > worked. Oh, tell me which Configuration you used, it should have worked. Pharo3 or 4? > I really like your browser, it has really streamlined the GUI > design, my only objection so far is that it does not resize its height > completely looks like it has some kind of enforced limit which is a pity > because it has such a minimum gui it would be easy to resize to just a > few lines of code which is what most methods are. Oh, you mean making it really small? There is probably a hard-coded limit somewhere, sorry, I never thought of that :( > I am not a fan of tree > like browsing because it wastes gui space the more you expand branches, > but its certainly a lot more compact than the 3 pane approach. I also > like the way you organised the packages very much and that you make a > separate entry for class comments. Its not far from the browser I was > imagining. > > well done :) Thanks! Don't hesitate to fork it and play all your content with the code. If it can help you build your dream IDE, I'll be proud :) Thierry > > On Mon, Nov 24, 2014 at 10:27 PM, Thierry Goubier > <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com <mailto:thierry.goubier@gmail.com>> wrote: > > Le 24/11/2014 21:10, kilon alios a Ã©crit : > > Well I would love to look at your code because I was imagining doing > something similar , no reason to reinvent the wheel, of course > assuming > you dont mind sharing your code. Especially uniting the tools > under one > roof and extending the shortcuts is a big win for me. > > > Well, the code is on github > (http://github.com/__ThierryGoubier/AltBrowser.git > <http://github.com/ThierryGoubier/AltBrowser.git>)__. > > Some of the stuff I'm fairly proud of. It has a very simple command > framework, where each command can set a shortcut / a menu entry / be > active or non active, be selection dependent or not. It overrides > the default shortcuts (including the text ones), so you can reroute > the keyboard in almost any way you like. Adding a new command is, > what, 5 one liners methods (and you have access to smart suggestions > of course, since it's where it started). > > It also has all the code for tracking code changes, well, the > necessary IDE stuff ;) It also has some fairly good drag and drop code. > > Its kinda funny I have considered several times to quit Pharo to > go back > to coding with python. More libraries , many great libraries, > tons of > documentation, even real time tutorials like codeacademy etc etc > . Then > I ask "sound great what IDE should I use that easy to modify on > the fly > and has a big enough community to help out that are friendly to > newcomers..... you know... Pharo is not that bad :D " > > The truth is that for dynamic language the IDEs are around the > same size > in term on people working on it as is Pharo , pyDev for example > which is > the eclipse plugin for python support has 1 person and few other > commiters, emacs python is pretty much abandonware and some > other IDEs > are again small teams, talking about open source. And I dont > even go in > the subject how easy it is to modify those IDEs. Pharo is the > first IDE > / enviroment that I find it enjoyable to hack. > > I totally agree that creating code that fits like a glove for > your needs > is ideal. But then open source usually starts like this, someone > needed > a tool, another tool existed but it did not get the job done the > way the > author wanted , or the code was too hard to extend , so he sit > downs and > makes some stuff and then says "lets open source it some people > may find > it useful as much as I do. > > > I agree with that. You offer as open source, sometimes all of it, > sometimes pieces of it (or ideas, or a motivation), sometimes > none... But when it also amount to making it cool for yourself, then > its really great. > > So yes I do complain for time to time about Pharo but only because I > really love Pharo , I think its awesome and I love to see what > people do > with it because I find that many ideas I have about the ideal > IDE are > not as special as I think and many people end up sharing the > same ideas > with me. This only makes me happier even more when I find a new > idea I > could have never figure out by myself : ) > > > Then enjoy yourself :) > > Thierry > > On Mon, Nov 24, 2014 at 9:44 PM, Thierry Goubier > <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com <mailto:thierry.goubier@gmail.com> > <mailto:thierry.goubier@gmail.__com > <mailto:thierry.goubier@gmail.com>>> wrote: > > Le 24/11/2014 19:51, kilon alios a Ã©crit : > > >> I'm certainly a good example of that. My Pharo is > mine! > (and I have > an IDE I like which is truly > > mine :P) > > > And I can only encourage you to do the same ;) > > > what you mean ? you have customised pharo for your > needs ? care > to share > , I am very interested :) > > > Well, yes, I did another system browser because I wanted to > try a > few things. And it kind of grow on you when you do that, so > now its > mine :) especially if, like me, you're not too successfull in > promoting it ;). > > It has grown to be a very significant part of what I use, > because it > replace many parts of the Pharo GUI now: the finder, > Nautilus, the > message/method list. And I've learned a lot doing so, like > how to be > reasonable: I need a working system, not one which will be > extraordinary 10 years down the road. > > I need something a guy can maintain and keep in sync with Pharo > easily: done, it's only 4k lines (Nautilus is > 12k > lines)... As it > is a just for me, it's a no compromise thing: just what > suits me and > my workflow in Pharo and outside Pharo. > > I would like to have emacs-shortcuts for all functions? > Easy mate, > could do! I want different menus? Check! I want a state of > the art > keyboard selection in a tree? Check! I want that browsers > windows > opens faster? Check! I want to have windows smaller to > better fit my > small screen? Check! I want to keep the same UI when > searching / > drilling down? Check! I want to be happy with the GUI I > use? Check! > > All this of course is building on Pharo strengths: an easy, > open > platform where building a new IDE is fairly simple (not > that well > documented, however). But there is nowhere else you could > imagine > doing that, apart from the Pharo and Smalltalk communities :) > > Thierry > > > > > > > > > > >

Nov. 24, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Pharo is mine

by kilon alios

really nice thanks, loadDevelopment did not work for me, but loadStables worked. I really like your browser, it has really streamlined the GUI design, my only objection so far is that it does not resize its height completely looks like it has some kind of enforced limit which is a pity because it has such a minimum gui it would be easy to resize to just a few lines of code which is what most methods are. I am not a fan of tree like browsing because it wastes gui space the more you expand branches, but its certainly a lot more compact than the 3 pane approach. I also like the way you organised the packages very much and that you make a separate entry for class comments. Its not far from the browser I was imagining. well done :) On Mon, Nov 24, 2014 at 10:27 PM, Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com > wrote: > Le 24/11/2014 21:10, kilon alios a Ã©crit : > >> Well I would love to look at your code because I was imagining doing >> something similar , no reason to reinvent the wheel, of course assuming >> you dont mind sharing your code. Especially uniting the tools under one >> roof and extending the shortcuts is a big win for me. >> > > Well, the code is on github (http://github.com/ > ThierryGoubier/AltBrowser.git). > > Some of the stuff I'm fairly proud of. It has a very simple command > framework, where each command can set a shortcut / a menu entry / be active > or non active, be selection dependent or not. It overrides the default > shortcuts (including the text ones), so you can reroute the keyboard in > almost any way you like. Adding a new command is, what, 5 one liners > methods (and you have access to smart suggestions of course, since it's > where it started). > > It also has all the code for tracking code changes, well, the necessary > IDE stuff ;) It also has some fairly good drag and drop code. > > Its kinda funny I have considered several times to quit Pharo to go back >> to coding with python. More libraries , many great libraries, tons of >> documentation, even real time tutorials like codeacademy etc etc . Then >> I ask "sound great what IDE should I use that easy to modify on the fly >> and has a big enough community to help out that are friendly to >> newcomers..... you know... Pharo is not that bad :D " >> >> The truth is that for dynamic language the IDEs are around the same size >> in term on people working on it as is Pharo , pyDev for example which is >> the eclipse plugin for python support has 1 person and few other >> commiters, emacs python is pretty much abandonware and some other IDEs >> are again small teams, talking about open source. And I dont even go in >> the subject how easy it is to modify those IDEs. Pharo is the first IDE >> / enviroment that I find it enjoyable to hack. >> >> I totally agree that creating code that fits like a glove for your needs >> is ideal. But then open source usually starts like this, someone needed >> a tool, another tool existed but it did not get the job done the way the >> author wanted , or the code was too hard to extend , so he sit downs and >> makes some stuff and then says "lets open source it some people may find >> it useful as much as I do. >> > > I agree with that. You offer as open source, sometimes all of it, > sometimes pieces of it (or ideas, or a motivation), sometimes none... But > when it also amount to making it cool for yourself, then its really great. > > So yes I do complain for time to time about Pharo but only because I >> really love Pharo , I think its awesome and I love to see what people do >> with it because I find that many ideas I have about the ideal IDE are >> not as special as I think and many people end up sharing the same ideas >> with me. This only makes me happier even more when I find a new idea I >> could have never figure out by myself : ) >> > > Then enjoy yourself :) > > Thierry > > On Mon, Nov 24, 2014 at 9:44 PM, Thierry Goubier >> <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com <mailto:thierry.goubier@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> Le 24/11/2014 19:51, kilon alios a Ã©crit : >> >> >> I'm certainly a good example of that. My Pharo is mine! >> (and I have >> an IDE I like which is truly >> >> mine :P) >> >> >> And I can only encourage you to do the same ;) >> >> >> what you mean ? you have customised pharo for your needs ? care >> to share >> , I am very interested :) >> >> >> Well, yes, I did another system browser because I wanted to try a >> few things. And it kind of grow on you when you do that, so now its >> mine :) especially if, like me, you're not too successfull in >> promoting it ;). >> >> It has grown to be a very significant part of what I use, because it >> replace many parts of the Pharo GUI now: the finder, Nautilus, the >> message/method list. And I've learned a lot doing so, like how to be >> reasonable: I need a working system, not one which will be >> extraordinary 10 years down the road. >> >> I need something a guy can maintain and keep in sync with Pharo >> easily: done, it's only 4k lines (Nautilus is > 12k lines)... As it >> is a just for me, it's a no compromise thing: just what suits me and >> my workflow in Pharo and outside Pharo. >> >> I would like to have emacs-shortcuts for all functions? Easy mate, >> could do! I want different menus? Check! I want a state of the art >> keyboard selection in a tree? Check! I want that browsers windows >> opens faster? Check! I want to have windows smaller to better fit my >> small screen? Check! I want to keep the same UI when searching / >> drilling down? Check! I want to be happy with the GUI I use? Check! >> >> All this of course is building on Pharo strengths: an easy, open >> platform where building a new IDE is fairly simple (not that well >> documented, however). But there is nowhere else you could imagine >> doing that, apart from the Pharo and Smalltalk communities :) >> >> Thierry >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >

Nov. 24, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] What is the limit

by Hilaire

Let's see then.. Le 24/11/2014 21:39, Esteban Lorenzano a Ã©crit : > wellâ¦ fthis days stay with the micro-concept of image sizes of ancient times does not looks like a reasonable approach. Lots of conditions changed and nowadays RAM is very cheap (and even tablets has enough of them) > but then, there are some points to observe that can help you: > > - Pharo4 will not have 32m, this is still a alpha version. It will be a lot smaller (I suppose a bit bigger than Pharo3, but not much more) > - We are also producing the Pharo-minimal images as part of the process, which are stripped versions with (for now) 6m size. Of course this one does not have a lot of things that has to be reintroduced if desired (like morphic), but I think is easy to have an image smaller than 10m with all you need when going production in a tablet. > > nowâ¦ about small is beauty. We incorporated a lot of new cool stuff (many that no one will ever notice, or use), and we need to improve in the cleaning sideâ¦ there are tons of things to clean or remove there. -- Dr. Geo - http://drgeo.eu iStoa - http://istoa.drgeo.eu

Nov. 24, 2014

Mess in Theme hierarchy again

by Hilaire

It just appear the Theme hierarchy is mess again, with what look like basic functionality methods appearing down in the hierarchy! Result: switching between theme makes text color unreadable. https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/14524/WateryTheme-broken-again -- Dr. Geo - http://drgeo.eu iStoa - http://istoa.drgeo.eu

Nov. 24, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] What is the limit

by Esteban Lorenzano

wellâ¦ fthis days stay with the micro-concept of image sizes of ancient times does not looks like a reasonable approach. Lots of conditions changed and nowadays RAM is very cheap (and even tablets has enough of them) but then, there are some points to observe that can help you: - Pharo4 will not have 32m, this is still a alpha version. It will be a lot smaller (I suppose a bit bigger than Pharo3, but not much more) - We are also producing the Pharo-minimal images as part of the process, which are stripped versions with (for now) 6m size. Of course this one does not have a lot of things that has to be reintroduced if desired (like morphic), but I think is easy to have an image smaller than 10m with all you need when going production in a tablet. nowâ¦ about small is beauty. We incorporated a lot of new cool stuff (many that no one will ever notice, or use), and we need to improve in the cleaning sideâ¦ there are tons of things to clean or remove there. cheers, Esteban > On 24 Nov 2014, at 21:29, Hilaire <hilaire(a)drgeo.eu> wrote: > > Pharo 1.4 image = 15MB > Pharo 3 image = 22MB > Pharo4 image = 32MB > > Don't know about Pharo 2.0 as, skip it. > > Is there a limit? > > Hopefully I gave up on the idea of tablet use but aren't we loosing the > sight on small is beautiful? > > Hilaire > > -- > Dr. Geo - http://drgeo.eu > iStoa - http://istoa.drgeo.eu > >

Nov. 24, 2014

What is the limit

by Hilaire

Pharo 1.4 image = 15MB Pharo 3 image = 22MB Pharo4 image = 32MB Don't know about Pharo 2.0 as, skip it. Is there a limit? Hopefully I gave up on the idea of tablet use but aren't we loosing the sight on small is beautiful? Hilaire -- Dr. Geo - http://drgeo.eu iStoa - http://istoa.drgeo.eu

Nov. 24, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Pharo is mine

by Thierry Goubier

Le 24/11/2014 21:10, kilon alios a Ã©crit : > Well I would love to look at your code because I was imagining doing > something similar , no reason to reinvent the wheel, of course assuming > you dont mind sharing your code. Especially uniting the tools under one > roof and extending the shortcuts is a big win for me. Well, the code is on github (http://github.com/ThierryGoubier/AltBrowser.git) Some of the stuff I'm fairly proud of. It has a very simple command framework, where each command can set a shortcut / a menu entry / be active or non active, be selection dependent or not. It overrides the default shortcuts (including the text ones), so you can reroute the keyboard in almost any way you like. Adding a new command is, what, 5 one liners methods (and you have access to smart suggestions of course, since it's where it started). It also has all the code for tracking code changes, well, the necessary IDE stuff ;) It also has some fairly good drag and drop code. > Its kinda funny I have considered several times to quit Pharo to go back > to coding with python. More libraries , many great libraries, tons of > documentation, even real time tutorials like codeacademy etc etc . Then > I ask "sound great what IDE should I use that easy to modify on the fly > and has a big enough community to help out that are friendly to > newcomers..... you know... Pharo is not that bad :D " > > The truth is that for dynamic language the IDEs are around the same size > in term on people working on it as is Pharo , pyDev for example which is > the eclipse plugin for python support has 1 person and few other > commiters, emacs python is pretty much abandonware and some other IDEs > are again small teams, talking about open source. And I dont even go in > the subject how easy it is to modify those IDEs. Pharo is the first IDE > / enviroment that I find it enjoyable to hack. > > I totally agree that creating code that fits like a glove for your needs > is ideal. But then open source usually starts like this, someone needed > a tool, another tool existed but it did not get the job done the way the > author wanted , or the code was too hard to extend , so he sit downs and > makes some stuff and then says "lets open source it some people may find > it useful as much as I do. I agree with that. You offer as open source, sometimes all of it, sometimes pieces of it (or ideas, or a motivation), sometimes none... But when it also amount to making it cool for yourself, then its really great. > So yes I do complain for time to time about Pharo but only because I > really love Pharo , I think its awesome and I love to see what people do > with it because I find that many ideas I have about the ideal IDE are > not as special as I think and many people end up sharing the same ideas > with me. This only makes me happier even more when I find a new idea I > could have never figure out by myself : ) Then enjoy yourself :) Thierry > On Mon, Nov 24, 2014 at 9:44 PM, Thierry Goubier > <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com <mailto:thierry.goubier@gmail.com>> wrote: > > Le 24/11/2014 19:51, kilon alios a Ã©crit : > > >> I'm certainly a good example of that. My Pharo is mine! > (and I have > an IDE I like which is truly > > mine :P) > > > And I can only encourage you to do the same ;) > > > what you mean ? you have customised pharo for your needs ? care > to share > , I am very interested :) > > > Well, yes, I did another system browser because I wanted to try a > few things. And it kind of grow on you when you do that, so now its > mine :) especially if, like me, you're not too successfull in > promoting it ;). > > It has grown to be a very significant part of what I use, because it > replace many parts of the Pharo GUI now: the finder, Nautilus, the > message/method list. And I've learned a lot doing so, like how to be > reasonable: I need a working system, not one which will be > extraordinary 10 years down the road. > > I need something a guy can maintain and keep in sync with Pharo > easily: done, it's only 4k lines (Nautilus is > 12k lines)... As it > is a just for me, it's a no compromise thing: just what suits me and > my workflow in Pharo and outside Pharo. > > I would like to have emacs-shortcuts for all functions? Easy mate, > could do! I want different menus? Check! I want a state of the art > keyboard selection in a tree? Check! I want that browsers windows > opens faster? Check! I want to have windows smaller to better fit my > small screen? Check! I want to keep the same UI when searching / > drilling down? Check! I want to be happy with the GUI I use? Check! > > All this of course is building on Pharo strengths: an easy, open > platform where building a new IDE is fairly simple (not that well > documented, however). But there is nowhere else you could imagine > doing that, apart from the Pharo and Smalltalk communities :) > > Thierry > > > > > > > >

Nov. 24, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Pharo is mine

by kilon alios

Well I would love to look at your code because I was imagining doing something similar , no reason to reinvent the wheel, of course assuming you dont mind sharing your code. Especially uniting the tools under one roof and extending the shortcuts is a big win for me. Its kinda funny I have considered several times to quit Pharo to go back to coding with python. More libraries , many great libraries, tons of documentation, even real time tutorials like codeacademy etc etc . Then I ask "sound great what IDE should I use that easy to modify on the fly and has a big enough community to help out that are friendly to newcomers..... you know... Pharo is not that bad :D " The truth is that for dynamic language the IDEs are around the same size in term on people working on it as is Pharo , pyDev for example which is the eclipse plugin for python support has 1 person and few other commiters, emacs python is pretty much abandonware and some other IDEs are again small teams, talking about open source. And I dont even go in the subject how easy it is to modify those IDEs. Pharo is the first IDE / enviroment that I find it enjoyable to hack. I totally agree that creating code that fits like a glove for your needs is ideal. But then open source usually starts like this, someone needed a tool, another tool existed but it did not get the job done the way the author wanted , or the code was too hard to extend , so he sit downs and makes some stuff and then says "lets open source it some people may find it useful as much as I do. So yes I do complain for time to time about Pharo but only because I really love Pharo , I think its awesome and I love to see what people do with it because I find that many ideas I have about the ideal IDE are not as special as I think and many people end up sharing the same ideas with me. This only makes me happier even more when I find a new idea I could have never figure out by myself : ) On Mon, Nov 24, 2014 at 9:44 PM, Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Le 24/11/2014 19:51, kilon alios a Ã©crit : > > >> I'm certainly a good example of that. My Pharo is mine! (and I have >> an IDE I like which is truly >> >>> mine :P) >>>> >>> >> And I can only encourage you to do the same ;) >>>> >>> >> what you mean ? you have customised pharo for your needs ? care to share >> , I am very interested :) >> > > Well, yes, I did another system browser because I wanted to try a few > things. And it kind of grow on you when you do that, so now its mine :) > especially if, like me, you're not too successfull in promoting it ;). > > It has grown to be a very significant part of what I use, because it > replace many parts of the Pharo GUI now: the finder, Nautilus, the > message/method list. And I've learned a lot doing so, like how to be > reasonable: I need a working system, not one which will be extraordinary 10 > years down the road. > > I need something a guy can maintain and keep in sync with Pharo easily: > done, it's only 4k lines (Nautilus is > 12k lines)... As it is a just for > me, it's a no compromise thing: just what suits me and my workflow in Pharo > and outside Pharo. > > I would like to have emacs-shortcuts for all functions? Easy mate, could > do! I want different menus? Check! I want a state of the art keyboard > selection in a tree? Check! I want that browsers windows opens faster? > Check! I want to have windows smaller to better fit my small screen? Check! > I want to keep the same UI when searching / drilling down? Check! I want to > be happy with the GUI I use? Check! > > All this of course is building on Pharo strengths: an easy, open platform > where building a new IDE is fairly simple (not that well documented, > however). But there is nowhere else you could imagine doing that, apart > from the Pharo and Smalltalk communities :) > > Thierry > > > > > > > >

Nov. 24, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Pharo is mine

by Thierry Goubier

Le 24/11/2014 19:51, kilon alios a Ã©crit : > >> I'm certainly a good example of that. My Pharo is mine! (and I have > an IDE I like which is truly >>> mine :P) > >>> And I can only encourage you to do the same ;) > > what you mean ? you have customised pharo for your needs ? care to share > , I am very interested :) Well, yes, I did another system browser because I wanted to try a few things. And it kind of grow on you when you do that, so now its mine :) especially if, like me, you're not too successfull in promoting it ;). It has grown to be a very significant part of what I use, because it replace many parts of the Pharo GUI now: the finder, Nautilus, the message/method list. And I've learned a lot doing so, like how to be reasonable: I need a working system, not one which will be extraordinary 10 years down the road. I need something a guy can maintain and keep in sync with Pharo easily: done, it's only 4k lines (Nautilus is > 12k lines)... As it is a just for me, it's a no compromise thing: just what suits me and my workflow in Pharo and outside Pharo. I would like to have emacs-shortcuts for all functions? Easy mate, could do! I want different menus? Check! I want a state of the art keyboard selection in a tree? Check! I want that browsers windows opens faster? Check! I want to have windows smaller to better fit my small screen? Check! I want to keep the same UI when searching / drilling down? Check! I want to be happy with the GUI I use? Check! All this of course is building on Pharo strengths: an easy, open platform where building a new IDE is fairly simple (not that well documented, however). But there is nowhere else you could imagine doing that, apart from the Pharo and Smalltalk communities :) Thierry

Nov. 24, 2014

NativeBoost

by Torsten Bergmann

Hi, were is NB currently maintained? Only within the image as it is integrated or still with an external config and on STHub? The reason why I ask: when I load the latest NB-Core package from STHub it looks like this one is outdated and back from Pharo3 day (trying to load it gives problems from changes in Pharo 4). So it looks like NB was originally developed external using STHub, then integrated into standard image and now it is only internally in-image managed. OK. But the future goal is as far as I understood to manage more and more packages using external configs again. What is the status and future plan for NB? Will the repo get synchronized? Or will it stay internal only? Thx T.

Nov. 24, 2014