October 2014 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] Playground

by Marcus Denker

On 02 Oct 2014, at 21:36, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: > > > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 5:19 PM, kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Is it just me or is the Playground a big step back in the usability of Pharo ? > > For me its Gui makes no sense. Gone is the right click menu which had tons of useful actions now you only get like a few options. The tab thing is weird to say the least with the navigation of the tabs being in the opposite side (bottom) of the navigation of the internal tabs(top). No more right arrow menu for shortcuts and many features that workspace had. > > I will concede that the contextual menu is incomplete. We will work on that. In the meantime, the keybindings work as in the classic workspace. > And one needs to take into account that the âpullâ strategy for menu items is much better than a âpushâ: Instead of adding just everything that was there, wait till people get *really* upset and implement it. This proves that they *really* need it :-) In a way we used that strategy *a lot* for Pharoâ¦ we removed so many menu entries everywhere. Or Settingsâ¦ the amount of settings that I removed, I guess >100? And the fun thing is: nobody ever complained :-) But if I would have asked: you can be sure that someone reacts like âI never used it but now that you tell me, I want to keep itâ. (this is true for every unused feature. Just remove and wait. Never ask. If you ask you will have to keep it. People react to removing unused features as if you would take something away from them that was just stored securely for bad times, as if it would be deeply ingrained in our genes or something). Marcus

Oct. 3, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Playground

by kilon alios

not really but thats ok I will wait for the documentation of it. On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 8:46 AM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: > Hi Kilon, > > I think I see where the confusion starts from. So, let's start from the > basics: > - the inspector is for inspecting objects, not just classes. > - every pane shows exactly one object (the one you see in the title of the > pane). > - every pane shows multiple presentations of that object as tabs. > - the two basic presentations are "State" showing the state of the object, > and "Meta" showing the code related to the object. We could call this one > "Class", but that can generate confusions in certain edge cases when you > are inspecting a class object. That is why I chose "Meta", but maybe we can > find a better one. > - the "Meta" presentation is meant to offer a way to manipulate or lookup > the code while being in the context of an object. > - every tab is defined by the class of the object you are inspecting. For > example, "State" is defined in Object>>#gtInspectorStateIn:, but any other > object can define extra tabs. > - the "Methods" tab that you refer to is such a presentation that is > specific to the class object. Specifically, you can find it in > Class>>#gtInspectorMethodsIn:. As the class object is a meta-object, I can > see how it can easily generate confusion because you have both "Meta" which > will show you the code of the class side of the class, and "Methods" which > show you the methods of the class. > - that is why, I suggest to start getting used with the inspector by > inspecting "FileSystem workingDirectory". You will see that you get and > "Items" view that allows you to explore the directory like you do in a more > classic browser. Then select from the file system a PNG file and you will > get a "Picture" > - all these tabs are customizable in that you can define such tabs for > your own objects easily. > - so, if you do not like one, you can simply either change it or remove it > by deleting the corresponding method or removing the annotation from it > (gtInspectorPresentationOrder:) > > Does this make more sense now? > > As for the actions, they will come back in some form. > > Cheers, > Doru > > > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 10:34 PM, kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > >> "I will concede that the contextual menu is incomplete. We will work on >> that. In the meantime, the keybindings work as in the classic workspace. >> >> But, what are the many features that the workspace had and you miss?" >> >> from right click menu I use -> Copy , Paste , find , browse it, sender of >> it, implementors of it, references to it,. >> from down arrow menu I use -> Change title, create window group, previous >> contents (that last on i see that playground has it) >> >> "What do you find weird about "Meta"? >> I agree that "All ref" should be better explained. >> But, what do you think these tabs mean?" >> >> Meta means nothing to me, maybe you should name it Meta-Class the problem >> however is that the IDE does not use that naming anywhere else apart from >> mentioning it in PBE. No idea what all references means, maybe its the >> instance variables. Is there an aggreement now in Pharo to call the class >> side of a class a Metaclass ? Its important to decide on these thing on a >> global scale or else you have confusion. >> >> "If so, clicking on an entry, is the correspondent of inspecting that >> object. In the "State" tab, we also provide self to denote the same object >> as the one represented in the tab. This was borrowed from the classic >> inspector, but maybe it is confusing in the context of the new inspector. >> In any case, if you continue clicking on self, you will indeed get the same >> object over and over. But, that does not mean that the inspector went in a >> loop" >> >> yes but why allowing the same pane to respawn when clicking self it makes >> not sense to me. Its also confusing for a begineer. >> >> "But, what do you mean by instance side tab?" >> >> I assume the instance side of the class is the "methods" tab ? no ? >> >> "Which one did you like?" >> >> I like the basic idea of trying to extend workspace with much more >> functionality and uniting all tools like inspector and system browser under >> one roof. I like also that comments get a new separate tab and that you >> trying to support pillar. >> >> The State name is vague, since state can mean both instance and class >> variables. >> >> "I do not understand this part. Can you explain in more details?" >> >> this -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGJZeajjWGU >> >> "It is not different thinking. It is a different use case :). The Meta >> tab shows the class of the object you inspect. If you inspected a class, >> then the inspector also provides you a list of its methods. " >> >> I am talking about the methods tab which also a confusing name for a tab, >> what kind of methods ? instance or class . I assume from the existence of >> Meta that those are instance methods . So why methods tab is not similar to >> Meta tab ? why it show only the method names and not the class and its >> inheritance chain and the method source of the method selected from the >> list of methods exactly as Meta tab is doing ? >> >> >> > > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "Every thing has its own flow" >

Oct. 3, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Cmd-o is not opening a new pane?

by Tudor Girba

Hi, Exactly, that is the idea behind the "i", but the problem is that we still have to find a nice way of implementing it :). Cheers, Doru On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 8:14 AM, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr> wrote: > > On 03 Oct 2014, at 07:47, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: > > Why do you think that the "Cmd+i" option introduces incoherence? > > > I like the idea of cmd-i for opening in the playground and cmd-I (big I) > for spawning a new one. > > (and the nice popper the we get when âprint itâ should have a play buttonâ¦ > the âiâ is already great, but > I sometimes "print itâ and would like to play it insteadâ¦ > > Doru > > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 11:45 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > >> you have to pay attention to other lists other than moose, Alex :) >> nah, seriously: we have been discussing on a remap, because it is >> conflicting with other keybindings we have in pharo (cmd+o+[others]). >> >> For now, we have three proposals: >> >> cmd+e âexecuteâ >> cmd+g âgoâ >> cmd+i, and remap gtinspector to cmd+I >> >> personally I prefer the second one. >> the third one looks like a good idea, but it will introduce an >> incoherence in the system (unless we remap everything, everywhere), so I >> prefer to stick with âcmd+gâ >> >> Esteban >> >> > On 02 Oct 2014, at 23:28, Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com> >> wrote: >> > >> > It does in the moose image. Pity, this is so useful... >> > >> > Cheers, >> > Alexandre >> > -- >> > _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: >> > Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu >> > ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> > > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "Every thing has its own flow" > > > -- www.tudorgirba.com "Every thing has its own flow"

Oct. 3, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Cmd-o is not opening a new pane?

by Tudor Girba

Hi, What if you see it like this: Cmd+i inspects. If you can inspect in place, you do it, otherwise, you inspect in a new window. I know it would require a bit of getting used to, but imagine what will happen when the class browser will allow you to inspect in place ... oops, perhaps I should have not say it loud :) Cheers, Doru On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 8:11 AM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> wrote: > yes, because it will be "open panel" in playground and "popup an > inspector" everyplace else. > > On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 7:47 AM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: > >> Why do you think that the "Cmd+i" option introduces incoherence? >> >> Doru >> >> On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 11:45 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> you have to pay attention to other lists other than moose, Alex :) >>> nah, seriously: we have been discussing on a remap, because it is >>> conflicting with other keybindings we have in pharo (cmd+o+[others]). >>> >>> For now, we have three proposals: >>> >>> cmd+e âexecuteâ >>> cmd+g âgoâ >>> cmd+i, and remap gtinspector to cmd+I >>> >>> personally I prefer the second one. >>> the third one looks like a good idea, but it will introduce an >>> incoherence in the system (unless we remap everything, everywhere), so I >>> prefer to stick with âcmd+gâ >>> >>> Esteban >>> >>> > On 02 Oct 2014, at 23:28, Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com> >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > It does in the moose image. Pity, this is so useful... >>> > >>> > Cheers, >>> > Alexandre >>> > -- >>> > _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: >>> > Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu >>> > ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> www.tudorgirba.com >> >> "Every thing has its own flow" >> > > -- www.tudorgirba.com "Every thing has its own flow"

Oct. 3, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Cmd-o is not opening a new pane?

by Marcus Denker

On 03 Oct 2014, at 07:47, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: > Why do you think that the "Cmd+i" option introduces incoherence? > I like the idea of cmd-i for opening in the playground and cmd-I (big I) for spawning a new one. (and the nice popper the we get when âprint itâ should have a play buttonâ¦ the âiâ is already great, but I sometimes "print itâ and would like to play it insteadâ¦ > Doru > > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 11:45 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> wrote: > you have to pay attention to other lists other than moose, Alex :) > nah, seriously: we have been discussing on a remap, because it is conflicting with other keybindings we have in pharo (cmd+o+[others]). > > For now, we have three proposals: > > cmd+e âexecuteâ > cmd+g âgoâ > cmd+i, and remap gtinspector to cmd+I > > personally I prefer the second one. > the third one looks like a good idea, but it will introduce an incoherence in the system (unless we remap everything, everywhere), so I prefer to stick with âcmd+gâ > > Esteban > > > On 02 Oct 2014, at 23:28, Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com> wrote: > > > > It does in the moose image. Pity, this is so useful... > > > > Cheers, > > Alexandre > > -- > > _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: > > Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu > > ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "Every thing has its own flow"

Oct. 3, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Cmd-o is not opening a new pane?

by Esteban Lorenzano

yes, because it will be "open panel" in playground and "popup an inspector" everyplace else. On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 7:47 AM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: > Why do you think that the "Cmd+i" option introduces incoherence? > > Doru > > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 11:45 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > >> you have to pay attention to other lists other than moose, Alex :) >> nah, seriously: we have been discussing on a remap, because it is >> conflicting with other keybindings we have in pharo (cmd+o+[others]). >> >> For now, we have three proposals: >> >> cmd+e âexecuteâ >> cmd+g âgoâ >> cmd+i, and remap gtinspector to cmd+I >> >> personally I prefer the second one. >> the third one looks like a good idea, but it will introduce an >> incoherence in the system (unless we remap everything, everywhere), so I >> prefer to stick with âcmd+gâ >> >> Esteban >> >> > On 02 Oct 2014, at 23:28, Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com> >> wrote: >> > >> > It does in the moose image. Pity, this is so useful... >> > >> > Cheers, >> > Alexandre >> > -- >> > _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: >> > Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu >> > ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> > > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "Every thing has its own flow" >

Oct. 3, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Cmd-o is not opening a new pane?

by Tudor Girba

Why do you think that the "Cmd+i" option introduces incoherence? Doru On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 11:45 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> wrote: > you have to pay attention to other lists other than moose, Alex :) > nah, seriously: we have been discussing on a remap, because it is > conflicting with other keybindings we have in pharo (cmd+o+[others]). > > For now, we have three proposals: > > cmd+e âexecuteâ > cmd+g âgoâ > cmd+i, and remap gtinspector to cmd+I > > personally I prefer the second one. > the third one looks like a good idea, but it will introduce an incoherence > in the system (unless we remap everything, everywhere), so I prefer to > stick with âcmd+gâ > > Esteban > > > On 02 Oct 2014, at 23:28, Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com> > wrote: > > > > It does in the moose image. Pity, this is so useful... > > > > Cheers, > > Alexandre > > -- > > _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: > > Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu > > ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. > > > > > > > > > > > -- www.tudorgirba.com "Every thing has its own flow"

Oct. 3, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Playground

by Tudor Girba

Hi Kilon, I think I see where the confusion starts from. So, let's start from the basics: - the inspector is for inspecting objects, not just classes. - every pane shows exactly one object (the one you see in the title of the pane). - every pane shows multiple presentations of that object as tabs. - the two basic presentations are "State" showing the state of the object, and "Meta" showing the code related to the object. We could call this one "Class", but that can generate confusions in certain edge cases when you are inspecting a class object. That is why I chose "Meta", but maybe we can find a better one. - the "Meta" presentation is meant to offer a way to manipulate or lookup the code while being in the context of an object. - every tab is defined by the class of the object you are inspecting. For example, "State" is defined in Object>>#gtInspectorStateIn:, but any other object can define extra tabs. - the "Methods" tab that you refer to is such a presentation that is specific to the class object. Specifically, you can find it in Class>>#gtInspectorMethodsIn:. As the class object is a meta-object, I can see how it can easily generate confusion because you have both "Meta" which will show you the code of the class side of the class, and "Methods" which show you the methods of the class. - that is why, I suggest to start getting used with the inspector by inspecting "FileSystem workingDirectory". You will see that you get and "Items" view that allows you to explore the directory like you do in a more classic browser. Then select from the file system a PNG file and you will get a "Picture" - all these tabs are customizable in that you can define such tabs for your own objects easily. - so, if you do not like one, you can simply either change it or remove it by deleting the corresponding method or removing the annotation from it (gtInspectorPresentationOrder:) Does this make more sense now? As for the actions, they will come back in some form. Cheers, Doru On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 10:34 PM, kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > "I will concede that the contextual menu is incomplete. We will work on > that. In the meantime, the keybindings work as in the classic workspace. > > But, what are the many features that the workspace had and you miss?" > > from right click menu I use -> Copy , Paste , find , browse it, sender of > it, implementors of it, references to it,. > from down arrow menu I use -> Change title, create window group, previous > contents (that last on i see that playground has it) > > "What do you find weird about "Meta"? > I agree that "All ref" should be better explained. > But, what do you think these tabs mean?" > > Meta means nothing to me, maybe you should name it Meta-Class the problem > however is that the IDE does not use that naming anywhere else apart from > mentioning it in PBE. No idea what all references means, maybe its the > instance variables. Is there an aggreement now in Pharo to call the class > side of a class a Metaclass ? Its important to decide on these thing on a > global scale or else you have confusion. > > "If so, clicking on an entry, is the correspondent of inspecting that > object. In the "State" tab, we also provide self to denote the same object > as the one represented in the tab. This was borrowed from the classic > inspector, but maybe it is confusing in the context of the new inspector. > In any case, if you continue clicking on self, you will indeed get the same > object over and over. But, that does not mean that the inspector went in a > loop" > > yes but why allowing the same pane to respawn when clicking self it makes > not sense to me. Its also confusing for a begineer. > > "But, what do you mean by instance side tab?" > > I assume the instance side of the class is the "methods" tab ? no ? > > "Which one did you like?" > > I like the basic idea of trying to extend workspace with much more > functionality and uniting all tools like inspector and system browser under > one roof. I like also that comments get a new separate tab and that you > trying to support pillar. > > The State name is vague, since state can mean both instance and class > variables. > > "I do not understand this part. Can you explain in more details?" > > this -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGJZeajjWGU > > "It is not different thinking. It is a different use case :). The Meta tab > shows the class of the object you inspect. If you inspected a class, then > the inspector also provides you a list of its methods. " > > I am talking about the methods tab which also a confusing name for a tab, > what kind of methods ? instance or class . I assume from the existence of > Meta that those are instance methods . So why methods tab is not similar to > Meta tab ? why it show only the method names and not the class and its > inheritance chain and the method source of the method selected from the > list of methods exactly as Meta tab is doing ? > > > -- www.tudorgirba.com "Every thing has its own flow"

Oct. 3, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Playground

by stepharo

:) What I suggest is take one point at a time. Make it clear and we will discuss it. I can tell you that I'm easy with doru about GT but we discuss based on argument and we will improve. Stef On 2/10/14 17:19, kilon alios wrote: > Is it just me or is the Playground a big step back in the usability of > Pharo ? > > For me its Gui makes no sense. Gone is the right click menu which had > tons of useful actions now you only get like a few options. The tab > thing is weird to say the least with the navigation of the tabs being > in the opposite side (bottom) of the navigation of the internal > tabs(top). No more right arrow menu for shortcuts and many features > that workspace had. No ability to resize the panel tabs . Weird > terminolgy like "All ref" and "Meta". Meta tab you have to select the > first item and then the other first item and then it displays fully . > > Also how one closes a tab panel ? Is it possible ? I tried everything > but i cant get them to close. > > I click a method and instead of opening a panel on the bottom for the > source as I would expect ,make my workspace area disappear and create > a new panel that sends me to state, whatever this is. Then I have to > click on the source tab. This is one of the most annoying guis I have > used in an IDE. > > Ironically the meta tab has got this right , name of class - method > names and source of methods . On the instance side tab there is a > different kind of thinking , why ? > > Also the inspector seems to get in some kind of loop opening forever > panels when it finds a dead end in its inspection.For example clicking > self. > > It has some good ideas in it, but I dont like the execution. > > The big loss for me is the inability to create windows groups, this > functionality provided a very nice solution to the windows mess of > pharo. I can name my groups but also the individual windows and so the > tabs have short names that I know what they are and names of course I > can customise. > > I can disable it via settings but maybe I am missing something here, a > some kind of usefulness because I don't understand or don't know how > to use it properly.

Oct. 3, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] GTPlayground wrong cursor position

by Alain Plantec

a Rubric issue I guess. I will have a look. Cheers Alain On 3 oct. 2014, at 07:25, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: > I do not know :( > > Doru > > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 11:46 PM, Nicolai Hess <nicolaihess(a)web.de> wrote: > Someone knows why this happens ? > Sometimes the cursor is at the wrong textposition. At least > it looks like that. Newly entered characters are on the right position. > (see screenshot ) > > > > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "Every thing has its own flow"

Oct. 3, 2014