October 2014 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] About ways to participate in community and general negativity

by Esteban Lorenzano

Iâm not talking about you or anyone else in particular. Iâm talking about a general attitude Iâm sensing. Now, I can be wrongâ¦ of course (and I hope) :) Esteban > On 03 Oct 2014, at 14:27, kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > First of all, if you are referring to me I never said "this is a shit". > > Second what you see as negativity I see it as honesty and for me is far more important than "Pharo is yours". Assuming honesty does not become rudeness. > > Third I dont recall anyone ever demanding a feature of you guys working 24/7 to implement something disregarding your limited resources. > > Fourth I have to say that I really don't get the "Pharo is yours" motto. Is there software out there , open source or not that does not listen to its community and does not try hard to makes its users happy ? Pharo is not mine, If I designed Pharo I would make a lot more diffirent choices than the ones that are included in Pharo and many of them would be proven bad and stupid in the long run because I have made many of them already. I want to contibute and keep pushing Pharo forward but realistically Pharo will never become mine and that maybe is more a good than a bad thing for the rest of you. > > Fifth, the community overall is friendly, we had our clashes from time to time but lets be realistic, what community does not ? I have had my bad experiences while coding with python and just a daily participation in irc channels and forums can prove this point easily. These things make one mature emotionally and learn how to treat people online in a productive way. Communities benefit more than fall apart from these incidents because they really prove what kind of metal they are made of. > > Not helping does not help is something we will agree to disagree, Companies invest billions of dollars on surveys to see how people feel about a product. You may hate the idea of Pharo viewed as a product but maybe then maybe you understimate the importance of this approach. Sooner or later Pharo will need some serious funding to get more full time developers and investors will see Pharo as a product. > > In the end if what drives you all is to create a super cool product go out and ask people what they truly feel about Pharo. Very few people use smalltalk implementations , why ? What they don't like is far more important to what they like. Learning to target features that your users need the most is the path to success but even if the user does not really know what he or she want getting to know your user needs or the way he/she thinks is what will help you design tools that make people smile but most importantly make people use on a day to day basis. > > If you are not ready to take in the negativity you wont go very far because there is a ton of negativity out there. If you find my negative bad, boy you have seen nothing . There is a lot of frustration out there for things even unrelated to coding, sometimes accepting that help you communicate easily with people . Dont try to suppress negative it will become a volcano that will erupt eventually. > > On the other hand do not tolerate trolling either, isolate these kind of people who love to annoy others and throw the away from poisoning the community. > > "Anything done with a measure is perfection" > > > > On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 2:44 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com>> wrote: > Hi, > > Iâm writing this because Iâm sad about what is happening in this list. > Iâm seeing a lot of general negativity and non constructive ways to discuss things. > Iâm also seeing more and more people using Pharo for their particular interests (which is of course a good thing) but less and less people who contribute back to Pharo. > Finally, Iâm seeing more frequently an attitude of âcustomerâ, more than the conviction than this, Pharo, is also yoursâ¦ > > Please people, we (the pharo âcoreâ team) cannot do everything. We do not have the manpower or the resources to hire manpower. We would like, but we just do not have the resources (is already a blessing that we can work on this, for now: INRIA is paying, but what it pays is *research*, not âpharo the languageâ, so this is a collateral advantageâ¦.) > > So, having an OPEN SOURCE project, with limited resources means that there is a lot of things that depend on the community. > It depends on the community not just to fix, but to enlarge the ecosystem in general too. > > So, I refuse to believe that we cannot be a cool and helpful community. > I refuse to believe that general negativity and bad humor can overcome the joy of participating in this collective effort. > > So, here some recommendations for enhance the way we participate: > > - Be positive. Just âthis is a s**tâ does not help. Even if it is. > - Be propositional. Just âthis is a s**tâ, and not telling what you want/prefer does not help. > - Be proactive. Just âthis is a s**tâ, and not report, discuss and (at least time to time) provide a fix/enhancement does not help. > > In conclusion: not helping does not help :) > After all, this is the âpharo-devâ list. I mean, the list of people wanting to participate from this great, community effort. > > cheers, > Esteban, still grateful of belonging to this community > > > >

Oct. 3, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] About ways to participate in community and general negativity

by kilon alios

First of all, if you are referring to me I never said "this is a shit". Second what you see as negativity I see it as honesty and for me is far more important than "Pharo is yours". Assuming honesty does not become rudeness. Third I dont recall anyone ever demanding a feature of you guys working 24/7 to implement something disregarding your limited resources. Fourth I have to say that I really don't get the "Pharo is yours" motto. Is there software out there , open source or not that does not listen to its community and does not try hard to makes its users happy ? Pharo is not mine, If I designed Pharo I would make a lot more diffirent choices than the ones that are included in Pharo and many of them would be proven bad and stupid in the long run because I have made many of them already. I want to contibute and keep pushing Pharo forward but realistically Pharo will never become mine and that maybe is more a good than a bad thing for the rest of you. Fifth, the community overall is friendly, we had our clashes from time to time but lets be realistic, what community does not ? I have had my bad experiences while coding with python and just a daily participation in irc channels and forums can prove this point easily. These things make one mature emotionally and learn how to treat people online in a productive way. Communities benefit more than fall apart from these incidents because they really prove what kind of metal they are made of. Not helping does not help is something we will agree to disagree, Companies invest billions of dollars on surveys to see how people feel about a product. You may hate the idea of Pharo viewed as a product but maybe then maybe you understimate the importance of this approach. Sooner or later Pharo will need some serious funding to get more full time developers and investors will see Pharo as a product. In the end if what drives you all is to create a super cool product go out and ask people what they truly feel about Pharo. Very few people use smalltalk implementations , why ? What they don't like is far more important to what they like. Learning to target features that your users need the most is the path to success but even if the user does not really know what he or she want getting to know your user needs or the way he/she thinks is what will help you design tools that make people smile but most importantly make people use on a day to day basis. If you are not ready to take in the negativity you wont go very far because there is a ton of negativity out there. If you find my negative bad, boy you have seen nothing . There is a lot of frustration out there for things even unrelated to coding, sometimes accepting that help you communicate easily with people . Dont try to suppress negative it will become a volcano that will erupt eventually. On the other hand do not tolerate trolling either, isolate these kind of people who love to annoy others and throw the away from poisoning the community. "Anything done with a measure is perfection" On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 2:44 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hi, > > Iâm writing this because Iâm sad about what is happening in this list. > Iâm seeing a lot of general negativity and non constructive ways to > discuss things. > Iâm also seeing more and more people using Pharo for their particular > interests (which is of course a good thing) but less and less people who > contribute back to Pharo. > Finally, Iâm seeing more frequently an attitude of âcustomerâ, more than > the conviction than this, Pharo, is also yoursâ¦ > > Please people, we (the pharo âcoreâ team) cannot do everything. We do not > have the manpower or the resources to hire manpower. We would like, but we > just do not have the resources (is already a blessing that we can work on > this, for now: INRIA is paying, but what it pays is *research*, not âpharo > the languageâ, so this is a collateral advantageâ¦.) > > So, having an OPEN SOURCE project, with limited resources means that there > is a lot of things that depend on the community. > It depends on the community not just to fix, but to enlarge the ecosystem > in general too. > > So, I refuse to believe that we cannot be a cool and helpful community. > I refuse to believe that general negativity and bad humor can overcome the > joy of participating in this collective effort. > > So, here some recommendations for enhance the way we participate: > > - Be positive. Just âthis is a s**tâ does not help. Even if it is. > - Be propositional. Just âthis is a s**tâ, and not telling what you > want/prefer does not help. > - Be proactive. Just âthis is a s**tâ, and not report, discuss and (at > least time to time) provide a fix/enhancement does not help. > > In conclusion: not helping does not help :) > After all, this is the âpharo-devâ list. I mean, the list of people > wanting to participate from this great, community effort. > > cheers, > Esteban, still grateful of belonging to this community > > > >

Oct. 3, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Cmd-o is not opening a new pane?

by Tudor Girba

I suggest another thing. We keep Cmd+g as the "ginspect". And when we will work on the next tools will add this command when possible. So, in essence, Cmd+i will become the Cmd+Shift+i from my proposal, and Cmd+g will become the Cmd+i from my proposal. What do you think? Cheers, Doru On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 12:21 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> wrote: > wellâ¦ but I still keep my argument: current cmd+i semantics is âpopup a > new inspectorâ, if we change that *just in the playgroundâ, it will be > annoying. > anyway, looks like opinions are divided: I believe that using cmd+i is > bad, while the rest of the world believe is the best way to go. > but since Iâm not sure, Iâm making a poll to see the general opinion :) > > Esteban > > > On 03 Oct 2014, at 10:13, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr> wrote: > > > > > > On 03 Oct 2014, at 10:08, Christophe Demarey < > Christophe.Demarey(a)inria.fr> wrote: > > > >> > >> Le 3 oct. 2014 Ã 08:26, Esteban Lorenzano a Ã©crit : > >> > >>> well, but thatâs something that *now* you cannot do. > >>> what people will see now is âcmd+i does one thing in playground, and > other thing in other parts of the system". > >> > >> Maybe it is me but what I see is cmd+i => inspect. > >> I will be more confused to use cmd+o in GT and cmd+i everywhere else. > >> > > > > another argument: everyone agrees that we open too many windows (*far* > too many windows) and that we > > need to change the IDE to do that less. > > > > Now if we declare âevery keystroke that used to open a window needs to > open a window forever and in all > > contextsâ, then it will be hard to solve the window-plagueâ¦ > > > > Marcus > > > > > -- www.tudorgirba.com "Every thing has its own flow"

Oct. 3, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] "Browser" on a single class

by Yuriy Tymchuk

My main interest in fact is recategorisation of methods. And dragging them into protocols looks pretty good for now. Can I do the same with glamour? Uko > On 03 Oct 2014, at 13:26, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> On 03 Oct 2014, at 13:14, Nicolai Hess <nicolaihess(a)web.de <mailto:nicolaihess@web.de>> wrote: >> >> >> Am 03.10.2014 12:34 schrieb "Yuriy Tymchuk" <yuriy.tymchuk(a)me.com <mailto:yuriy.tymchuk@me.com>>: >> > >> > Hi. >> > >> > I want to make something like a browser on a single class. I.e. just use 2 last lists out if 4 in standard browser. >> > >> > Is there already something like that? If not, should I use existing widgets, or implement my own using spec? >> > >> > Cheers! >> > Uko >> > >> > Sent from my iPhone >> >> I think that is pretty easy with some spec models. >> Maybe there is already an example >> > yes, but a few models means a few classes :) > in a single class, it will e a lot easier glamour (which btw, is specially designed for that: to make browsers). > > Esteban >> Hilaire asked for a simple Method editor and >> i wrote a simple example build with DynamicComposableModel, search the Mailingliste. >>

Oct. 3, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Poll: What should we use to replace cmd+o in GTPlayground?

by kilon alios

yeah sorry for the confusion, no idea why i pressed i instead of 1. On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 2:47 PM, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr> wrote: > > On 03 Oct 2014, at 13:44, Richard Wettel <wettel(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > I assume you selected x and inspected it before evaluating the assignment > statement, in which case remains uninitialized. > > Cheers > Ricky > â > Sent from Mailbox <https://www.dropbox.com/mailbox> > > > On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 1:40 PM, kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> actually i just tried it >> >> I opened the Playground and typed >> >> x := 1. >> >> > no, it is > > x := i > > which evaluates to nil, and yes, GTInpsector just shows a grey area for > nilâ¦ (which I think was not intentional) > > Marcus > > > and I clicked inspect and it opens an inspector window that is empty >> completely.... I assume this is a bug ? >> >> this is how it looks --> >> <Inspector bug.JPG> >> >> >> On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 2:25 PM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: >> >>> Yes, it is meant to replace the classic inspector. Did you notice that >>> anything is missing? >>> >>> Doru >>> >>> On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 1:24 PM, kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> will gtinspector replace the existing inspector ? will it offer all the >>>> functionality that the existing inspector offers ? >>>> >>>> if yes, then I think its obvious that cmd+i is the best choice here. >>>> >>>> I also think that is time for pharo to get its own shortcut manager so >>>> you guys not have to worry about these things. So it makes it easy to map >>>> keys to functionality. >>>> >>>> 2014-10-03 13:27 GMT+03:00 <estebanlm(a)gmail.com>: >>>> >>>> Si tienes problemas para visualizar o enviar este formulario, puedes >>>>> rellenarlo online: >>>>> >>>>> https://docs.google.com/forms/d/14y9NJfSk-hsrmcpCMc8sY2cy6za8GAYQ_lipRFL6aW… >>>>> >>>>> Formulario sin tÃtulo >>>>> *Obligatorio >>>>> >>>>> What should we use to "open gtinspector in playground" (formerly >>>>> cmd+o) * >>>>> - let's remap cmd+i, it is the best option >>>>> - I prefer to use other map, let's use cmd+g (or e) >>>>> Nunca envÃes contraseÃ±as a travÃ©s de Formularios de Google. >>>>> >>>>> Con la tecnologÃa de >>>>> [image: Formularios de Google] >>>>> Este contenido no ha sido creado ni aprobado por Google. >>>>> Informar sobre abusos >>>>> <https://docs.google.com/forms/d/14y9NJfSk-hsrmcpCMc8sY2cy6za8GAYQ_lipRFL6aW…> >>>>> - Condiciones del servicio <http://www.google.com/accounts/TOS> - Otros >>>>> tÃ©rminos <http://www.google.com/google-d-s/terms.html> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> www.tudorgirba.com >>> >>> "Every thing has its own flow" >>> >> >> > >

Oct. 3, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Poll: What should we use to replace cmd+o in GTPlayground?

by Marcus Denker

On 03 Oct 2014, at 13:44, Richard Wettel <wettel(a)gmail.com> wrote: > I assume you selected x and inspected it before evaluating the assignment statement, in which case remains uninitialized. > > Cheers > Ricky > â > Sent from Mailbox > > > On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 1:40 PM, kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > actually i just tried it > > I opened the Playground and typed > > x := 1. > no, it is x := i which evaluates to nil, and yes, GTInpsector just shows a grey area for nilâ¦ (which I think was not intentional) Marcus > and I clicked inspect and it opens an inspector window that is empty completely.... I assume this is a bug ? > > this is how it looks --> > <Inspector bug.JPG> > > > On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 2:25 PM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: > Yes, it is meant to replace the classic inspector. Did you notice that anything is missing? > > Doru > > On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 1:24 PM, kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > will gtinspector replace the existing inspector ? will it offer all the functionality that the existing inspector offers ? > > if yes, then I think its obvious that cmd+i is the best choice here. > > I also think that is time for pharo to get its own shortcut manager so you guys not have to worry about these things. So it makes it easy to map keys to functionality. > > 2014-10-03 13:27 GMT+03:00 <estebanlm(a)gmail.com>: > > Si tienes problemas para visualizar o enviar este formulario, puedes rellenarlo online: > https://docs.google.com/forms/d/14y9NJfSk-hsrmcpCMc8sY2cy6za8GAYQ_lipRFL6aW… > > Formulario sin tÃtulo > > > > *Obligatorio > > What should we use to "open gtinspector in playground" (formerly cmd+o) * > let's remap cmd+i, it is the best option > I prefer to use other map, let's use cmd+g (or e) > > Nunca envÃes contraseÃ±as a travÃ©s de Formularios de Google. > Con la tecnologÃa de > > Este contenido no ha sido creado ni aprobado por Google. > Informar sobre abusos - Condiciones del servicio - Otros tÃ©rminos > > > > > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "Every thing has its own flow" > >

Oct. 3, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Poll: What should we use to replace cmd+o in GTPlayground?

by Richard Wettel

I assume you selected x and inspected it before evaluating the assignment statement, in which case remains uninitialized. Cheers Ricky â Sent from Mailbox On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 1:40 PM, kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > actually i just tried it > I opened the Playground and typed > x := 1. > and I clicked inspect and it opens an inspector window that is empty > completely.... I assume this is a bug ? > this is how it looks --> > On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 2:25 PM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: >> Yes, it is meant to replace the classic inspector. Did you notice that >> anything is missing? >> >> Doru >> >> On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 1:24 PM, kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> will gtinspector replace the existing inspector ? will it offer all the >>> functionality that the existing inspector offers ? >>> >>> if yes, then I think its obvious that cmd+i is the best choice here. >>> >>> I also think that is time for pharo to get its own shortcut manager so >>> you guys not have to worry about these things. So it makes it easy to map >>> keys to functionality. >>> >>> 2014-10-03 13:27 GMT+03:00 <estebanlm(a)gmail.com>: >>> >>> Si tienes problemas para visualizar o enviar este formulario, puedes >>>> rellenarlo online: >>>> >>>> https://docs.google.com/forms/d/14y9NJfSk-hsrmcpCMc8sY2cy6za8GAYQ_lipRFL6aW… >>>> >>>> Formulario sin tÃtulo >>>> *Obligatorio >>>> >>>> What should we use to "open gtinspector in playground" (formerly >>>> cmd+o) * >>>> - let's remap cmd+i, it is the best option >>>> - I prefer to use other map, let's use cmd+g (or e) >>>> Nunca envÃes contraseÃ±as a travÃ©s de Formularios de Google. >>>> >>>> Con la tecnologÃa de >>>> [image: Formularios de Google] >>>> Este contenido no ha sido creado ni aprobado por Google. >>>> Informar sobre abusos >>>> <https://docs.google.com/forms/d/14y9NJfSk-hsrmcpCMc8sY2cy6za8GAYQ_lipRFL6aW…> >>>> - Condiciones del servicio <http://www.google.com/accounts/TOS> - Otros >>>> tÃ©rminos <http://www.google.com/google-d-s/terms.html> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> www.tudorgirba.com >> >> "Every thing has its own flow" >>

Oct. 3, 2014

About ways to participate in community and general negativity

by Esteban Lorenzano

Hi, Iâm writing this because Iâm sad about what is happening in this list. Iâm seeing a lot of general negativity and non constructive ways to discuss things. Iâm also seeing more and more people using Pharo for their particular interests (which is of course a good thing) but less and less people who contribute back to Pharo. Finally, Iâm seeing more frequently an attitude of âcustomerâ, more than the conviction than this, Pharo, is also yoursâ¦ Please people, we (the pharo âcoreâ team) cannot do everything. We do not have the manpower or the resources to hire manpower. We would like, but we just do not have the resources (is already a blessing that we can work on this, for now: INRIA is paying, but what it pays is *research*, not âpharo the languageâ, so this is a collateral advantageâ¦.) So, having an OPEN SOURCE project, with limited resources means that there is a lot of things that depend on the community. It depends on the community not just to fix, but to enlarge the ecosystem in general too. So, I refuse to believe that we cannot be a cool and helpful community. I refuse to believe that general negativity and bad humor can overcome the joy of participating in this collective effort. So, here some recommendations for enhance the way we participate: - Be positive. Just âthis is a s**tâ does not help. Even if it is. - Be propositional. Just âthis is a s**tâ, and not telling what you want/prefer does not help. - Be proactive. Just âthis is a s**tâ, and not report, discuss and (at least time to time) provide a fix/enhancement does not help. In conclusion: not helping does not help :) After all, this is the âpharo-devâ list. I mean, the list of people wanting to participate from this great, community effort. cheers, Esteban, still grateful of belonging to this community

Oct. 3, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Poll: What should we use to replace cmd+o in GTPlayground?

by kilon alios

actually i just tried it I opened the Playground and typed x := 1. and I clicked inspect and it opens an inspector window that is empty completely.... I assume this is a bug ? this is how it looks --> On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 2:25 PM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: > Yes, it is meant to replace the classic inspector. Did you notice that > anything is missing? > > Doru > > On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 1:24 PM, kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> will gtinspector replace the existing inspector ? will it offer all the >> functionality that the existing inspector offers ? >> >> if yes, then I think its obvious that cmd+i is the best choice here. >> >> I also think that is time for pharo to get its own shortcut manager so >> you guys not have to worry about these things. So it makes it easy to map >> keys to functionality. >> >> 2014-10-03 13:27 GMT+03:00 <estebanlm(a)gmail.com>: >> >> Si tienes problemas para visualizar o enviar este formulario, puedes >>> rellenarlo online: >>> >>> https://docs.google.com/forms/d/14y9NJfSk-hsrmcpCMc8sY2cy6za8GAYQ_lipRFL6aW… >>> >>> Formulario sin tÃtulo >>> *Obligatorio >>> >>> What should we use to "open gtinspector in playground" (formerly >>> cmd+o) * >>> - let's remap cmd+i, it is the best option >>> - I prefer to use other map, let's use cmd+g (or e) >>> Nunca envÃes contraseÃ±as a travÃ©s de Formularios de Google. >>> >>> Con la tecnologÃa de >>> [image: Formularios de Google] >>> Este contenido no ha sido creado ni aprobado por Google. >>> Informar sobre abusos >>> <https://docs.google.com/forms/d/14y9NJfSk-hsrmcpCMc8sY2cy6za8GAYQ_lipRFL6aW…> >>> - Condiciones del servicio <http://www.google.com/accounts/TOS> - Otros >>> tÃ©rminos <http://www.google.com/google-d-s/terms.html> >>> >>> >> > > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "Every thing has its own flow" >

Oct. 3, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] "Browser" on a single class

by Esteban Lorenzano

> On 03 Oct 2014, at 13:14, Nicolai Hess <nicolaihess(a)web.de> wrote: > > > Am 03.10.2014 12:34 schrieb "Yuriy Tymchuk" <yuriy.tymchuk(a)me.com <mailto:yuriy.tymchuk@me.com>>: > > > > Hi. > > > > I want to make something like a browser on a single class. I.e. just use 2 last lists out if 4 in standard browser. > > > > Is there already something like that? If not, should I use existing widgets, or implement my own using spec? > > > > Cheers! > > Uko > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > I think that is pretty easy with some spec models. > Maybe there is already an example > yes, but a few models means a few classes :) in a single class, it will e a lot easier glamour (which btw, is specially designed for that: to make browsers). Esteban > Hilaire asked for a simple Method editor and > i wrote a simple example build with DynamicComposableModel, search the Mailingliste.

Oct. 3, 2014