October 2014 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] Poll: What should we use to replace cmd+o in GTPlayground?

by Ben Coman

kilon alios wrote: > will gtinspector replace the existing inspector ? will it offer all the > functionality that the existing inspector offers ? > > if yes, then I think its obvious that cmd+i is the best choice here. > > I also think that is time for pharo to get its own shortcut manager so > you guys not have to worry about these things. So it makes it easy to > map keys to functionality. +1 - but I know there are many things on the plate, and that might stay on the menu for now. > > 2014-10-03 13:27 GMT+03:00 <estebanlm(a)gmail.com > <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com>>: > > Si tienes problemas para visualizar o enviar este formulario, puedes > rellenarlo online: > https://docs.google.com/forms/d/14y9NJfSk-hsrmcpCMc8sY2cy6za8GAYQ_lipRFL6aW… > <https://docs.google.com/forms/d/14y9NJfSk-hsrmcpCMc8sY2cy6za8GAYQ_lipRFL6aW…> > > > > Formulario sin tÃtulo > > *Obligatorio > > What should we use to "open gtinspector in playground" > (formerly cmd+o) * > * let's remap cmd+i, it is the best option > * I prefer to use other map, let's use cmd+g (or e) > Nunca envÃes contraseÃ±as a travÃ©s de Formularios de Google. > > Con la tecnologÃa de > Formularios de Google > Este contenido no ha sido creado ni aprobado por Google. > Informar sobre abusos > <https://docs.google.com/forms/d/14y9NJfSk-hsrmcpCMc8sY2cy6za8GAYQ_lipRFL6aW…> > - Condiciones del servicio <http://www.google.com/accounts/TOS> - > Otros tÃ©rminos <http://www.google.com/google-d-s/terms.html> > >

Oct. 3, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] About ways to participate in community and general negativity

by kilon alios

Generalisations and assumptions lead nowhere , personally I prefer someone that will tell me "fuck you I don't like your attitude" than someone that tries via diplomacy to make a point just so he does not raise the tentions and hurt egos. If there is such a problem as you claim and you are serious about addressing it then you will have to point the finger and engage in a discussion with those people. Maybe they are not as unreasonable as you think and if they are you can always show them the fire exit. Personally I cannot think of anyone that complains all the time and never is positive or complain the majority of the times. I also like what Thierry is claiming, there are times I wish that Pharo was a lot like Cuis and was aiming more at simplifying and minimising than extending. I am not saying that Pharoers should not try new ideas and improve existing I am talking strictly what goes inside the core. I don't want Pharo to grow to something the size of Java because frankly the community is too small to maintain so much code. But maybe I am wrong time will tell. If you want more people to contribute then it will be necessary to make the core smaller and easier to digest. Create a nice installer that then will install all the external stuff that can be as complex as they want to be. Configurations browser is a step towards the right direction and so is Versioner. On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 6:27 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> wrote: > wellâ¦ I think everybody is taking it too personal :) > My call was to keep a good environment and try to be more positive on our > communication. > And to try to provide advice with the criticism (and to provide fixes when > possible). > Iâm completely aware that people has other things to do than Pharoâ¦ but > being just in the place of criticise without any positive loop is what I > think is not good. > Just that, Iâm not blaming anyone, just making a call for keep the good > will. > > Esteban > > > On 03 Oct 2014, at 17:07, Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > > Hi Esteban, > > I'm not sure my answer will please you or stef, and maybe I shouldn't > voice it, staying being a "customer" instead of contributing "the way you > want it". Hard words, but yours are hard too. > > I'd say simply that Pharo is successfull, fairly successfull for someone > like me. It allows me to engage in complex work, in what I do best and what > affords me to be paid and have the freedom to use Pharo. Some of those > things suppose that I maintain and extend fairly complex packages on top of > Pharo, and deal with permanent, multiple overlapping interruptions > (meeting, administrative work, travels, etc...). Pharo is great, it allows > me to build a significant activity on top of it. > > Some of the consequences of that success? I'm looking at things that works > now, not in Pharo 5, 6, or 7. I'm a bit frightened by grandiose rewritting > attempts which will be usable in a version or 2, at best, and leave an > unsatisfying "now" situation. I'll carefully evaluate what new stuff is > integrated. New stuff I look to see if they are usable (libcgit > integration, TxText) and what I see is stuff that builds on unstable core > libs extensions (NativeBoost, Athens) on top of an already unstable version > (4.0), and I'm really not impressed by the software development process. > > The end result is, when I see a bug, I'm already at least two versions > behind you guys... so there's nothing worth reporting. There is some > progress on the way things are being done (thanks Marcus for doing the > deprecation API backporting on 3.0) and not much on others (and I speak of > methodology, not of new features being added on). > > If you have the feeling that I don't contribute the way I should or the > way you would like, step back and ask yourself if this is not my "unspoken" > way of me saying that I don't find a way to contribute, or that > contributing effectively is too costly. > > And look! This is not a matter of resources, but maybe a matter of slowing > down a bit, so that the poor community members with limited resources like > me that are not full time on Pharo 4.0 development may catch up :) And > please, no more rejection of feedback, even negative. It just gives me the > feeling you are overstreched, and that Pharo has a problem setting its > goals. > > Regards, > > Thierry > > 2014-10-03 13:44 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com>: > >> Hi, >> >> Iâm writing this because Iâm sad about what is happening in this list. >> Iâm seeing a lot of general negativity and non constructive ways to >> discuss things. >> Iâm also seeing more and more people using Pharo for their particular >> interests (which is of course a good thing) but less and less people who >> contribute back to Pharo. >> Finally, Iâm seeing more frequently an attitude of âcustomerâ, more than >> the conviction than this, Pharo, is also yoursâ¦ >> >> Please people, we (the pharo âcoreâ team) cannot do everything. We do not >> have the manpower or the resources to hire manpower. We would like, but we >> just do not have the resources (is already a blessing that we can work on >> this, for now: INRIA is paying, but what it pays is *research*, not âpharo >> the languageâ, so this is a collateral advantageâ¦.) >> >> So, having an OPEN SOURCE project, with limited resources means that >> there is a lot of things that depend on the community. >> It depends on the community not just to fix, but to enlarge the ecosystem >> in general too. >> >> So, I refuse to believe that we cannot be a cool and helpful community. >> I refuse to believe that general negativity and bad humor can overcome >> the joy of participating in this collective effort. >> >> So, here some recommendations for enhance the way we participate: >> >> - Be positive. Just âthis is a s**tâ does not help. Even if it is. >> - Be propositional. Just âthis is a s**tâ, and not telling what you >> want/prefer does not help. >> - Be proactive. Just âthis is a s**tâ, and not report, discuss and (at >> least time to time) provide a fix/enhancement does not help. >> >> In conclusion: not helping does not help :) >> After all, this is the âpharo-devâ list. I mean, the list of people >> wanting to participate from this great, community effort. >> >> cheers, >> Esteban, still grateful of belonging to this community >> >> >> >> > >

Oct. 3, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] About ways to participate in community and general negativity

by HernÃ¡n Morales Durand

2014-10-03 9:27 GMT-03:00 kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com>: > First of all, if you are referring to me I never said "this is a shit". > > Second what you see as negativity I see it as honesty and for me is far > more important than "Pharo is yours". Assuming honesty does not become > rudeness. > > Third I dont recall anyone ever demanding a feature of you guys working > 24/7 to implement something disregarding your limited resources. > > Fourth I have to say that I really don't get the "Pharo is yours" motto. > Is there software out there , open source or not that does not listen to > its community and does not try hard to makes its users happy ? Pharo is not > mine, If I designed Pharo I would make a lot more diffirent choices than > the ones that are included in Pharo and many of them would be proven bad > and stupid in the long run because I have made many of them already. I want > to contibute and keep pushing Pharo forward but realistically Pharo will > never become mine and that maybe is more a good than a bad thing for the > rest of you. > > I have the same feeling. "Pharo is yours, but I take the main decisions". Actually it feels a little bit insulting, I am using Pharo since several years in a domain which nobody works with Smalltalk, and never got a survey request (except for some software engineering research). And I bet there are people not in the Pharo/Moose/Seaside team that didn't received any attention and they are doing significant experiences. Why they don't write here? I suspect one of the reasons is Pharo is being too motivated by software enineering research and not enough interest for other giant domains like 3D, finance, expert systems, HPC, etc. People perceive this. > Fifth, the community overall is friendly, we had our clashes from time to > time but lets be realistic, what community does not ? I have had my bad > experiences while coding with python and just a daily participation in irc > channels and forums can prove this point easily. These things make one > mature emotionally and learn how to treat people online in a productive > way. Communities benefit more than fall apart from these incidents because > they really prove what kind of metal they are made of. > > Not helping does not help is something we will agree to disagree, > Companies invest billions of dollars on surveys to see how people feel > about a product. You may hate the idea of Pharo viewed as a product but > maybe then maybe you understimate the importance of this approach. Sooner > or later Pharo will need some serious funding to get more full time > developers and investors will see Pharo as a product. > > I see years passing but money never comes. You cannot expect big funding if you keep doing things the same as always. > In the end if what drives you all is to create a super cool product go out > and ask people what they truly feel about Pharo. Very few people use > smalltalk implementations , why ? What they don't like is far more > important to what they like. Learning to target features that your users > need the most is the path to success but even if the user does not really > know what he or she want getting to know your user needs or the way he/she > thinks is what will help you design tools that make people smile but most > importantly make people use on a day to day basis. > > If you are not ready to take in the negativity you wont go very far > because there is a ton of negativity out there. If you find my negative > bad, boy you have seen nothing . There is a lot of frustration out there > for things even unrelated to coding, sometimes accepting that help you > communicate easily with people . Dont try to suppress negative it will > become a volcano that will erupt eventually. > > Yes, please stop rejecting feedback that you won't like. Cheers, HernÃ¡n

Oct. 3, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Catch Response 500 error in ZnClient

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

Hi Nicolai, I must have missed that one somehow, I will look into it. OTOMH, I think you need to add an #enforceHttpSuccess:true or #systemPolicy to the ZnClient instance being used. Sven On 03 Oct 2014, at 17:49, Nicolai Hess <nicolaihess(a)web.de> wrote: > > 2014-08-24 13:10 GMT+02:00 Nicolai Hess <nicolaihess(a)web.de>: > How to catch a ZnResponse(500 Internal Server Error) ? > (see fogbugz issue 13905) > > I tried to add a > ifFail:[....] > block but it does not get called on this response. > > > Nicolai > > Anyone ? :)

Oct. 3, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Playground

by Ben Coman

Tudor Girba wrote: > and "Meta" showing the _code_ related to the object. [..] but > maybe we can find a better one. Maybe "code" for instance side methods ?... > "Meta" which will show you the code of the class side of the class, and > "Methods" which show you the methods of the class. ...and "Code" for class side methods ? Or "methods" and "Methods" for instance-side and class-side respectively, or "Code" and "MetaCode" ? -ben

Oct. 3, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Catch Response 500 error in ZnClient

by Nicolai Hess

2014-08-24 13:10 GMT+02:00 Nicolai Hess <nicolaihess(a)web.de>: > How to catch a ZnResponse(500 Internal Server Error) ? > (see fogbugz issue 13905) > > I tried to add a > ifFail:[....] > block but it does not get called on this response. > > > Nicolai > Anyone ? :)

Oct. 3, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] About ways to participate in community and general negativity

by Esteban Lorenzano

wellâ¦ I think everybody is taking it too personal :) My call was to keep a good environment and try to be more positive on our communication. And to try to provide advice with the criticism (and to provide fixes when possible). Iâm completely aware that people has other things to do than Pharoâ¦ but being just in the place of criticise without any positive loop is what I think is not good. Just that, Iâm not blaming anyone, just making a call for keep the good will. Esteban > On 03 Oct 2014, at 17:07, Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi Esteban, > > I'm not sure my answer will please you or stef, and maybe I shouldn't voice it, staying being a "customer" instead of contributing "the way you want it". Hard words, but yours are hard too. > > I'd say simply that Pharo is successfull, fairly successfull for someone like me. It allows me to engage in complex work, in what I do best and what affords me to be paid and have the freedom to use Pharo. Some of those things suppose that I maintain and extend fairly complex packages on top of Pharo, and deal with permanent, multiple overlapping interruptions (meeting, administrative work, travels, etc...). Pharo is great, it allows me to build a significant activity on top of it. > > Some of the consequences of that success? I'm looking at things that works now, not in Pharo 5, 6, or 7. I'm a bit frightened by grandiose rewritting attempts which will be usable in a version or 2, at best, and leave an unsatisfying "now" situation. I'll carefully evaluate what new stuff is integrated. New stuff I look to see if they are usable (libcgit integration, TxText) and what I see is stuff that builds on unstable core libs extensions (NativeBoost, Athens) on top of an already unstable version (4.0), and I'm really not impressed by the software development process. > > The end result is, when I see a bug, I'm already at least two versions behind you guys... so there's nothing worth reporting. There is some progress on the way things are being done (thanks Marcus for doing the deprecation API backporting on 3.0) and not much on others (and I speak of methodology, not of new features being added on). > > If you have the feeling that I don't contribute the way I should or the way you would like, step back and ask yourself if this is not my "unspoken" way of me saying that I don't find a way to contribute, or that contributing effectively is too costly. > > And look! This is not a matter of resources, but maybe a matter of slowing down a bit, so that the poor community members with limited resources like me that are not full time on Pharo 4.0 development may catch up :) And please, no more rejection of feedback, even negative. It just gives me the feeling you are overstreched, and that Pharo has a problem setting its goals. > > Regards, > > Thierry > > 2014-10-03 13:44 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com>>: > Hi, > > Iâm writing this because Iâm sad about what is happening in this list. > Iâm seeing a lot of general negativity and non constructive ways to discuss things. > Iâm also seeing more and more people using Pharo for their particular interests (which is of course a good thing) but less and less people who contribute back to Pharo. > Finally, Iâm seeing more frequently an attitude of âcustomerâ, more than the conviction than this, Pharo, is also yoursâ¦ > > Please people, we (the pharo âcoreâ team) cannot do everything. We do not have the manpower or the resources to hire manpower. We would like, but we just do not have the resources (is already a blessing that we can work on this, for now: INRIA is paying, but what it pays is *research*, not âpharo the languageâ, so this is a collateral advantageâ¦.) > > So, having an OPEN SOURCE project, with limited resources means that there is a lot of things that depend on the community. > It depends on the community not just to fix, but to enlarge the ecosystem in general too. > > So, I refuse to believe that we cannot be a cool and helpful community. > I refuse to believe that general negativity and bad humor can overcome the joy of participating in this collective effort. > > So, here some recommendations for enhance the way we participate: > > - Be positive. Just âthis is a s**tâ does not help. Even if it is. > - Be propositional. Just âthis is a s**tâ, and not telling what you want/prefer does not help. > - Be proactive. Just âthis is a s**tâ, and not report, discuss and (at least time to time) provide a fix/enhancement does not help. > > In conclusion: not helping does not help :) > After all, this is the âpharo-devâ list. I mean, the list of people wanting to participate from this great, community effort. > > cheers, > Esteban, still grateful of belonging to this community > > > >

Oct. 3, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] playground size

by phil＠highoctane.be

I am using GT in 3.0 and the inspector is indeed supercool. Now, I've the standard Workspace on Cmd-o Cmd-w and the Playground on Cmd-g. Depending on the task, one or the other is better. I am using Workspaces as a kind of command prompt in Pharo to set some state of the system, reinitializing etc. There is zero need to inspect the result there nor have a large window. Also, the ability to save/load such workspaces is very useful (as well as making them unclosable). All of these abilities are lost with the Playground and the size of the Playground there would be too large. There is a use case for both facilities. Phil On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 5:07 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > I too feel that GT-Tools in general use up too much screen real estate. It > is as if they were designed for big screens and/or small fonts. But I am > concentrating on functionality (views) first, the look can change later on > I guess. > > On 03 Oct 2014, at 17:05, Christophe Demarey <Christophe.Demarey(a)inria.fr> > wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > First I need to say, I love the new GT tools. It really goes a step > further. > > I just wanted to say that I find the Playground window quite big (at > least 1/4 of the whole Pharo window). > > I understand that the size is bigger than a simple workspace to be able > to display panes after clicking play but if you just need to evaluate > ()do-it, print-it) some code, it is over-sized. > > Would it be possible to have a default window size smaller and resize > automatically if you need to display an inspector pane? > > > > Regards, > > Christophe. > > >

Oct. 3, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] playground size

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

I too feel that GT-Tools in general use up too much screen real estate. It is as if they were designed for big screens and/or small fonts. But I am concentrating on functionality (views) first, the look can change later on I guess. On 03 Oct 2014, at 17:05, Christophe Demarey <Christophe.Demarey(a)inria.fr> wrote: > Hi, > > First I need to say, I love the new GT tools. It really goes a step further. > I just wanted to say that I find the Playground window quite big (at least 1/4 of the whole Pharo window). > I understand that the size is bigger than a simple workspace to be able to display panes after clicking play but if you just need to evaluate ()do-it, print-it) some code, it is over-sized. > Would it be possible to have a default window size smaller and resize automatically if you need to display an inspector pane? > > Regards, > Christophe.

Oct. 3, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] About ways to participate in community and general negativity

by Thierry Goubier

Hi Esteban, I'm not sure my answer will please you or stef, and maybe I shouldn't voice it, staying being a "customer" instead of contributing "the way you want it". Hard words, but yours are hard too. I'd say simply that Pharo is successfull, fairly successfull for someone like me. It allows me to engage in complex work, in what I do best and what affords me to be paid and have the freedom to use Pharo. Some of those things suppose that I maintain and extend fairly complex packages on top of Pharo, and deal with permanent, multiple overlapping interruptions (meeting, administrative work, travels, etc...). Pharo is great, it allows me to build a significant activity on top of it. Some of the consequences of that success? I'm looking at things that works now, not in Pharo 5, 6, or 7. I'm a bit frightened by grandiose rewritting attempts which will be usable in a version or 2, at best, and leave an unsatisfying "now" situation. I'll carefully evaluate what new stuff is integrated. New stuff I look to see if they are usable (libcgit integration, TxText) and what I see is stuff that builds on unstable core libs extensions (NativeBoost, Athens) on top of an already unstable version (4.0), and I'm really not impressed by the software development process. The end result is, when I see a bug, I'm already at least two versions behind you guys... so there's nothing worth reporting. There is some progress on the way things are being done (thanks Marcus for doing the deprecation API backporting on 3.0) and not much on others (and I speak of methodology, not of new features being added on). If you have the feeling that I don't contribute the way I should or the way you would like, step back and ask yourself if this is not my "unspoken" way of me saying that I don't find a way to contribute, or that contributing effectively is too costly. And look! This is not a matter of resources, but maybe a matter of slowing down a bit, so that the poor community members with limited resources like me that are not full time on Pharo 4.0 development may catch up :) And please, no more rejection of feedback, even negative. It just gives me the feeling you are overstreched, and that Pharo has a problem setting its goals. Regards, Thierry 2014-10-03 13:44 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com>: > Hi, > > I'm writing this because I'm sad about what is happening in this list. > I'm seeing a lot of general negativity and non constructive ways to > discuss things. > I'm also seeing more and more people using Pharo for their particular > interests (which is of course a good thing) but less and less people who > contribute back to Pharo. > Finally, I'm seeing more frequently an attitude of "customer", more than > the conviction than this, Pharo, is also yours... > > Please people, we (the pharo "core" team) cannot do everything. We do not > have the manpower or the resources to hire manpower. We would like, but we > just do not have the resources (is already a blessing that we can work on > this, for now: INRIA is paying, but what it pays is *research*, not "pharo > the language", so this is a collateral advantage....) > > So, having an OPEN SOURCE project, with limited resources means that there > is a lot of things that depend on the community. > It depends on the community not just to fix, but to enlarge the ecosystem > in general too. > > So, I refuse to believe that we cannot be a cool and helpful community. > I refuse to believe that general negativity and bad humor can overcome the > joy of participating in this collective effort. > > So, here some recommendations for enhance the way we participate: > > - Be positive. Just "this is a s**t" does not help. Even if it is. > - Be propositional. Just "this is a s**t", and not telling what you > want/prefer does not help. > - Be proactive. Just "this is a s**t", and not report, discuss and (at > least time to time) provide a fix/enhancement does not help. > > In conclusion: not helping does not help :) > After all, this is the "pharo-dev" list. I mean, the list of people > wanting to participate from this great, community effort. > > cheers, > Esteban, still grateful of belonging to this community > > > >

Oct. 3, 2014