October 2014 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] gt issues

by kmo

Well, one man's intuitive is another man's completely obscure. In the pharo context, the dots are a completely new navigation widget - used nowhere else - and their function is unclear. I think part of the problem is that the dots do not appear on any kind of obvious toolbar - they are more or less just dots on the bottom of the window. There is no visual cue that they have any function at all. They could be mere decoration. Just my two cents. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/gt-issues-tp4782476p4782557.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Oct. 4, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Setting the code highlighter for specific methods/classes

by stepharo

I know that when alain rewrote the integration of hilightler in paragraph he wrote some nice comments and examples. stef On 4/10/14 12:23, Stephan Eggermont wrote: > In Squeak there is a convenience method defined on Behavior to > set the highlighter for the code. There was a bug report/discussion > a few years ago with Lukas. It was noted that that change is mostly > needed at the same time as changing the compiler/parser and > the save behavior. At the time Lukas suggested to have an object > representing this whole compilation context. With Helvetica this > would be needed at a text range granularity, I assume. > > What is the current state of this in Pharo, and how do I make > Nautilus (and other browsers) use a different highlighter? > > Stephan > > > >

Oct. 4, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] gt issues

by Camille Teruel

On 4 oct. 2014, at 12:44, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > > On 04 Oct 2014, at 11:55, kmo <voxkmp(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> I've raised two issues on the GT playground: >> >> https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/14158/Navigation-buttons-icons-at-bottom-… >> >> https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/14157/Navigation-buttons-at-bottom-of-GT-… >> >> When I first tried the playground I never even noticed the dots at the >> bottom of the window - they do not show up well in the default theme. - >> (they seem OK in the dark theme screenshots I've seen). >> >> Also, I think little dots are not intuitive. It would be better if you had >> video controller buttons or perhaps little outlined squares with page >> numbers in them. Dots on their own mean nothing. > > Well, I agree that they might be a bit hard to find, but they are far from meaningless. There are many websites with carrousels that use the same metaphor. Yes I found it quite intuitive, and the miniatures are nice too. BTW is there shortcut to navigate between panes? Camille

Oct. 4, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] gt issues

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

On 04 Oct 2014, at 11:55, kmo <voxkmp(a)gmail.com> wrote: > I've raised two issues on the GT playground: > > https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/14158/Navigation-buttons-icons-at-bottom-… > > https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/14157/Navigation-buttons-at-bottom-of-GT-… > > When I first tried the playground I never even noticed the dots at the > bottom of the window - they do not show up well in the default theme. - > (they seem OK in the dark theme screenshots I've seen). > > Also, I think little dots are not intuitive. It would be better if you had > video controller buttons or perhaps little outlined squares with page > numbers in them. Dots on their own mean nothing. Well, I agree that they might be a bit hard to find, but they are far from meaningless. There are many websites with carrousels that use the same metaphor.

Oct. 4, 2014

Setting the code highlighter for specific methods/classes

by Stephan Eggermont

In Squeak there is a convenience method defined on Behavior to set the highlighter for the code. There was a bug report/discussion a few years ago with Lukas. It was noted that that change is mostly needed at the same time as changing the compiler/parser and the save behavior. At the time Lukas suggested to have an object representing this whole compilation context. With Helvetica this would be needed at a text range granularity, I assume. What is the current state of this in Pharo, and how do I make Nautilus (and other browsers) use a different highlighter? Stephan

Oct. 4, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Updates for Pharo4

by stepharo

thanks max I will have a look soon. On 4/10/14 11:29, Max Leske wrote: > Iâve opened an issue with a slice for integration. > > https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/14159/Update-Fuel > > >> I fixed a couple of issues and failing tests for Pharo4. Thereâs also a couple of new things (e.g. test cases for Context instead of MethodContext) that should be integrated into Pharo4. >> >> Cheers, >> Max >

Oct. 4, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] About ways to participate in community and general negativity

by stepharo

On 3/10/14 23:03, Alain Rastoul wrote: > Le 03/10/2014 22:10, stepharo a Ã©crit : > > Hi Stef, > > I like your metaphor , and yes, I really hope to share my personal > soup with Pharo community asap. A soup about databases, json, > streaming/map reduce stuff I've been thinking (and still thinking) for > a while now. I'm interested in that . > All of that still in an alpha or infancy step now, but I'm working > hard on that (big problem for me is time - I'm greedy on that, plus > lot of stress at work). > btw, I'm confident about Pharo technology, spur and 64 bits, and it > is a great move forward :). Yes I'm waiting for that a lot. ephemerons, pinned objects, new format, immutability..... + opal and sista it will really rock. > May be I'll fail -it would not be the first time- but anyway, if I can > contribute with Pharo (bugs, doc or whatever is accessible to me), I > will. > Just because I prefer Pharo over dotNet or Java Excellent What I learn is small projects, small steps but many many of them > :) > > Regards, > > Alain > > >> Thanks alain. >> >> Here is my metaphor: I help myself and share my "soup of stones" with >> people that want to improve our soup of stones. >> At the end our soup may be great. >> >> Another way to present my metaphor is: "focus on what you need and >> change the system (and send us fixes/enhancements) on what you need. >> Because if you do not do it, then why a guy not needing it would need to >> spend time." >> ah to grow the market.... well Spur, 64 bits, better FFI, decent events, >> automated build for VM and many many other things are already in the >> pipeline and >> (none of them is about research :) you can trust me on that >> >> Stef >> > > > >

Oct. 4, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] About ways to participate in community and general negativity

by stepharo

On 3/10/14 22:13, Hilaire wrote: > I agree 100% with Thierry. > I wrote and complain about it months ago: we need consolidation in the > newly developed stuff we have. This is what we are doing. Look at spec we cleaned it. Now we do not have 3 more years for TxText and Athens. Keeping the old events is a door open for - more ctrl key does not work..... > So it may mean to slow down and > polishing. Because from my point of view, I don't understand where is > moving Pharo, but true it is moving. Pharo is moving as - more modularity (we are working on making the bootstrap part of the building of Pharo) based on conifguration of external elements - great infrastructure compiler text OS event + window more example cleaning menu Stef > > Hilaire > > > Le 03/10/2014 17:07, Thierry Goubier a Ã©crit : >> unsatisfying "now" situation. I'll carefully evaluate what new stuff is >> integrated. New stuff I look to see if they are usable (libcgit >> integration, TxText) and what I see is stuff that builds on unstable core >> libs extensions (NativeBoost, Athens) on top of an already unstable version >> (4.0), and I'm really not impressed by the software development process. >> >> The end result is, when I see a bug, I'm already at least two versions >> behind you guys... so there's nothing worth reporting. There is some >> progress on the way things are being done (thanks Marcus for doing the >> deprecation API backporting on 3.0) and not much on others (and I speak of >> methodology, not of new features being added on). >> >> If you have the feeling that I don't contribute the way I should or the way >> you would like, step back and ask yourself if this is not my "unspoken" way >> of me saying that I don't find a way to contribute, or that contributing >> effectively is too costly. >> >> And look! This is not a matter of resources, but maybe a matter of slowing >> down a bit, so that the poor community members with limited resources like >> me that are not full time on Pharo 4.0 development may catch up :) And >> please, no more rejection of feedback, even negative. It just gives me the >> feeling you are overstreched, and that Pharo has a problem setting its >> goals. >

Oct. 4, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] About ways to participate in community and general negativity

by stepharo

> What are the plans to integrate TxText? - Igor is taking clients one by one and improving txText. We got a new syntax hilighter. - Then I want to replace the workspace by a TxWorkspace. - After for athens we should rewrite all the drawOn: methods. - We were waiting to get integration based on configurations to include it and now this is ready. so soon we will have - TxText inside Pharo - > > > Now I know that GTools have been used in Moose for a long time, but > its integration to Pharo REPLACING Workspace has been a cultural shock > to those that haven't used it before (myself included, though I'm > lookign forward to adapting). I think there'll be similar culture > shock when Pharo 4 is released, from those that don't follow the > bleeding edge. I'd strongly suggest that GTools operate for ONE > release alongside existing tools, as an additional item in the first > level World menu next to 'Workspace'. I said the same to doru :). > Indeed, even if Playground is quite stable through long use in Moose, > it is new to Pharo, and marking its menu entry as 'Experimental' for > now might provide some benefits. > > * This may provide a to stress test new evolving frameworks like > TxText & Rubric - without affecting existing tools. > > * Now Playground has a wider community exposure, feedback from new > users is likely to be less pressure and less negative if they still > have access to old tools. > > * Feedback may result in changes. > > * Reduced culture shock. Builds confidence in a stable system not > going "too fast" but just "fast enough" (very subjective I know). >

Oct. 4, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] About ways to participate in community and general negativity

by stepharo

> NativeBoost is not unstable for me, but why libcgit is on a bleeding > edge NativeBoost version then? I do not get what you want to say. May be restating will help me understand. > Athens is stable for me, but I believe that TxText requires a bleeding > edge Athens. Igor improve Athens each time it is needed and it does not make athens unstable. > >>> on top of an already unstable version (4.0), and I'm really not >>> impressed by the software development process. >> >> what should it be? >> You know Igor will not be paid in a month from now, JB should find a job >> and esteban has two years to prove that the consortium flies. >> So if we do not clean the event and windowing systems, rick and thales >> will be in trouble. So we are fighting against time. > > Thales is not an easy customer :) I know; apart from parser know-how, > there is nothing that I can sell outside (projects, etc..) about > Pharo. And if I'm not successfull, then its no more Pharo for me. I know this is why I wish you success > >>> The end result is, when I see a bug, I'm already at least two versions >>> behind you guys... >> >> Why. I do not get why Pharo 3 would be unstable and that far from >> Pharo 20. > > I'm on Pharo 3. Some of the stuff I'm interested is on Pharo 4 + > bleeding edge version of core Pharo subsystem... two versions off from > 3 for me. > > Libcgit is like that: its Pharo 4 + Bleeding edge native boost not yet > in Pharo 4 + libcgit (and from ESUG, I get that it will require an > entire refactoring of Monticello and a complete new on disk format). > It's really shaping up like a long, long term target. So for you it would be better that we move faster :) Not slowler. > >>> so there's nothing worth reporting. There is some progress on the way >>> things are being done (thanks Marcus for doing the deprecation API >>> backporting on 3.0) and not much on others (and I speak of >>> methodology, not of new features being added on). >>> >>> If you have the feeling that I don't contribute the way I should or >>> the way you would like, step back and ask yourself if this is not my >>> "unspoken" way of me saying that I don't find a way to contribute, or >>> that contributing effectively is too costly. >>> >>> And look! This is not a matter of resources, but maybe a matter of >>> slowing down a bit, so that the poor community members with limited >>> resources like me that are not full time on Pharo 4.0 development may >>> catch up :) And please, no more rejection of feedback, even negative. >>> It just gives me the feeling you are overstreched, and that Pharo has >>> a problem setting its goals. >> >> Thierry, >> I do not have the impression that we go fast. >> You see we started Athens more than two years ago. It is a success for >> external tools like moose and Roassal but >> without TxText Athens will just be a nice package not change the face of >> Pharo and we will get there. > > I believe you're right about those; but I'd say that the way it's > being done is a bit worrying. Why? > > Because for me, TxText is already more advanced than the current text > editor: the ability to change the cursor, probably a better layout, > etc... Should already been integrated, then, if its already better. > But you still have the font bug that Alexandre complained about... how > many months ago? So, as long as its not resolved, TxText can't be > integrated (and additionally, I'm sure that there is aliasing issues > on my machines: fonts in Roassal don't look as nice as in Morphic). You see if there is a bug in a cache on the system somehwere what can we do. Igot told to alex to use another font and it solved the problem. TxText will be pushed soon in Pharo 40. > And now, to make integration easier, we pile more stuff on top of the > existing, bound to be removed, infrastructure: Glamour, Rubric, etc... > And both Glamour and Spec don't make it easy to solve Morphic bugs. May be. > > I value your ambition a lot :) But I also feel that it stresses the > Rmod team, and it leaks over the community. > >> Writing the chapter and maintaining Smacc is already a nice tribute to >> the community. Just continue that and we will be happy :) > > Thanks. John gave me plenty of fixes and I'm preparing a new version > of SmaCC, and adding GUI tools (thinking of Guillaume needs and my > needs as well). > > I certainly hope I'll be able to contribute on other things, still :) > > Thierry > >

Oct. 4, 2014