January 2014 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] ZeroMQ implementations for Smalltalk

by Panu Suominen

Unfortunately http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~panuw/zeromq is not reliable. There are some problems with image restart that I haven't had time to debug due family and work related lack of time. The problems causes image to freeze sometimes when restarting/saving image. Also it only works with 32 bit libraries ATM... It tries to manage the problem of smaltalk image based nature and the fact that zmq-context is for ever lost when image is shutdown and stored to the hard drive. Idea is that image contains all the information to obtain new zmq-context, recreate and configure sockets when image restarts. 2014/1/9 Serge Stinckwich <serge.stinckwich(a)gmail.com> > Dear all, > > apparently there is one ZeroMQ implementation here on Smalltalkhub: > http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~panuw/zeromq > > and there is another version for GnuSmalltalk available on github: > https://github.com/vijaymathew/gst_zmq > > Is the first one working correctly ? > Regards, > -- > Serge Stinckwich > UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) > Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk > http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/ > > -- Panu

Jan. 9, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

by Igor Stasenko

On 9 January 2014 11:27, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr> wrote: > > On 09 Jan 2014, at 11:11, kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > I was the one that worked on CMD+L dialog. I posted my slice here and it > was discussed. I tried to implement undo, but trying to understand undo was > a pain in the ass. > > > I reviewed it and you are not to blame: A key combination that *loses > code* is not acceptable, and as we discussed in the past, this > change was needed and good. > > Yes, and i agreed on that. My only complaint is that instead of making things work, we reversed it and made things even worse. > The people who use the (undocumented!) cmd-L can easily get rid of the > warning by implementing Undo. > > how many modern editors document that pressing home key will move cursor to beginning of line? or pressing cmd-v will paste things from clipboard? i do not think this is a good criteria to disable feature(s) only because they either not documented properly or that someone has no idea it exists. > Marcus > > And yes Igor I am no pro coder, I code like 30 minutes a day max. I am a > lawyer that tries to become a pro 2d/3d artist. > I enjoy coding and an IDE that punishes me for my mistakes does not make > coding enjoyable for me. > I think maybe an easy solution is to set all modals to a preference > setting so they can be easily disabled, thus making everyone happy. > > Igor I will be frank with you, coders have no idea how to design good > GUIs. They see GUIs as nothing more than an inconvenience and extra coding > effort from their part. > They usually put out the excuse "I am no designer" yet the truth is that > they dont care because they cant understand the importance of a great GUI > to the user. Applications like Photoshop are rare example of good GUI > design. > > > On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr>wrote: > >> >> On 09 Jan 2014, at 10:50, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr> wrote: >> >> >> On 09 Jan 2014, at 10:45, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> On 9 January 2014 10:38, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: >> >>> The history hack did totally not work for end users, many people, >>> including myself, lost code, often without noticing or understanding it at >>> first. >>> >>> This 'warning, you did not accept' is/was important and solid, if you >>> want to replace that the solution should be really good - it was not. >>> >>> Don't shoot on Nicolai, he tried to fix it, after asking around. >>> >>> i'm not shooting anyone, i just sad there is no progress :) >> and instead even regress, because now i should also answer 'yes/no' when >> i press >> cmd-L.. >> >> If some people will need to be asked are they really really really >> fucking sure they wanted to press a key they pressed, each time they >> pressing the key, why others, who don't need such stupidity should suffer? >> >> >> These are two different issue: >> >> 1) CMD-L >> >> >> The real solution is to implement undo for cmd-L... >> >> 2) Not asking in general and rely on history. >> >> This is a good idea but it needs to *work* >> >> Marcus >> > > > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

Jan. 9, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

by phil＠highoctane.be

Well, truth be told, the editors are really a pain in the current form. And in some ways are worse than in the past, especially with selection bugs etc. Now, given that we are using principles that date back 30+ years, it is astonishing that we went so far without massive changes. There are efforts ongoing and getting TextEditors "right" is really hard. I really look forward to the new editor and dark theme. Now, yeah, I should move my ass and contribute more to this. Putting bread on the table is getting in my way at the moment, but that's forseen to change soon. (And Photoshop is a pain in the assets as well - GIMP isn't any better. What matters is that one invests time in learning the quirks to get the results. Always like that. Currently working with Varicad for some design project and the UI isn't simple either, see for yourself: [image: Inline image 1] On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 11:59 AM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > On 9 January 2014 11:10, kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> I was the one that worked on CMD+L dialog. I posted my slice here and it >> was discussed. I tried to implement undo, but trying to understand undo was >> a pain in the ass. >> >> And yes Igor I am no pro coder, I code like 30 minutes a day max. I am a >> lawyer that tries to become a pro 2d/3d artist. >> I enjoy coding and an IDE that punishes me for my mistakes does not make >> coding enjoyable for me. >> > > because punishment is a HUGE part of process as one of the stimulus for > learning things you wouldn't learn the other way. Without it, i doubt you > can learn anything at all. > You can give a candy to baby each time it does not try touching fire, and > the only thing which baby will learn is that to get a candy it needs to > pretend that its about to touch fire. > Only after baby will touch it, it can learn why touching it is bad idea.. > no candies will help. > > I think maybe an easy solution is to set all modals to a preference >> setting so they can be easily disabled, thus making everyone happy. >> >> Yes, that could be a way to go. > > >> Igor I will be frank with you, coders have no idea how to design good >> GUIs. They see GUIs as nothing more than an inconvenience and extra coding >> effort from their part. >> > > really? i do not belong to those who think GUI is secondary. A > well-designed GUI is very important for efficient workflow. Same as > well-designed language, like smalltalk is. > > They usually put out the excuse "I am no designer" yet the truth is that >> they dont care because they cant understand the importance of a great GUI >> to the user. Applications like Photoshop are rare example of good GUI >> design. >> > > you lost me on that. I never considered Photoshop as one that has good GUI > design.. > The main merit of Photoshop is that it is killed all other really good > graphics editors and established monopoly. It's easy to say 'we are best' > when there's nothing to compare with. > > > >> >> > > > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko. >

Jan. 9, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

by Igor Stasenko

On 9 January 2014 11:10, kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > I was the one that worked on CMD+L dialog. I posted my slice here and it > was discussed. I tried to implement undo, but trying to understand undo was > a pain in the ass. > > And yes Igor I am no pro coder, I code like 30 minutes a day max. I am a > lawyer that tries to become a pro 2d/3d artist. > I enjoy coding and an IDE that punishes me for my mistakes does not make > coding enjoyable for me. > because punishment is a HUGE part of process as one of the stimulus for learning things you wouldn't learn the other way. Without it, i doubt you can learn anything at all. You can give a candy to baby each time it does not try touching fire, and the only thing which baby will learn is that to get a candy it needs to pretend that its about to touch fire. Only after baby will touch it, it can learn why touching it is bad idea.. no candies will help. I think maybe an easy solution is to set all modals to a preference setting > so they can be easily disabled, thus making everyone happy. > > Yes, that could be a way to go. > Igor I will be frank with you, coders have no idea how to design good > GUIs. They see GUIs as nothing more than an inconvenience and extra coding > effort from their part. > really? i do not belong to those who think GUI is secondary. A well-designed GUI is very important for efficient workflow. Same as well-designed language, like smalltalk is. They usually put out the excuse "I am no designer" yet the truth is that > they dont care because they cant understand the importance of a great GUI > to the user. Applications like Photoshop are rare example of good GUI > design. > you lost me on that. I never considered Photoshop as one that has good GUI design.. The main merit of Photoshop is that it is killed all other really good graphics editors and established monopoly. It's easy to say 'we are best' when there's nothing to compare with. > > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

Jan. 9, 2014

ZeroMQ implementations for Smalltalk

by Serge Stinckwich

Dear all, apparently there is one ZeroMQ implementation here on Smalltalkhub: http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~panuw/zeromq and there is another version for GnuSmalltalk available on github: https://github.com/vijaymathew/gst_zmq Is the first one working correctly ? Regards, -- Serge Stinckwich UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/

Jan. 9, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

by Marcus Denker

On 09 Jan 2014, at 11:11, kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > I was the one that worked on CMD+L dialog. I posted my slice here and it was discussed. I tried to implement undo, but trying to understand undo was a pain in the ass. > I reviewed it and you are not to blame: A key combination that *loses code* is not acceptable, and as we discussed in the past, this change was needed and good. The people who use the (undocumented!) cmd-L can easily get rid of the warning by implementing Undo. Marcus > And yes Igor I am no pro coder, I code like 30 minutes a day max. I am a lawyer that tries to become a pro 2d/3d artist. > I enjoy coding and an IDE that punishes me for my mistakes does not make coding enjoyable for me. > I think maybe an easy solution is to set all modals to a preference setting so they can be easily disabled, thus making everyone happy. > > Igor I will be frank with you, coders have no idea how to design good GUIs. They see GUIs as nothing more than an inconvenience and extra coding effort from their part. > They usually put out the excuse "I am no designer" yet the truth is that they dont care because they cant understand the importance of a great GUI to the user. Applications like Photoshop are rare example of good GUI design. > > > On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr> wrote: > > On 09 Jan 2014, at 10:50, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr> wrote: > >> >> On 09 Jan 2014, at 10:45, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 9 January 2014 10:38, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: >>> The history hack did totally not work for end users, many people, including myself, lost code, often without noticing or understanding it at first. >>> >>> This 'warning, you did not accept' is/was important and solid, if you want to replace that the solution should be really good - it was not. >>> >>> Don't shoot on Nicolai, he tried to fix it, after asking around. >>> >>> i'm not shooting anyone, i just sad there is no progress :) >>> and instead even regress, because now i should also answer 'yes/no' when i press >>> cmd-L.. >>> >>> If some people will need to be asked are they really really really fucking sure they wanted to press a key they pressed, each time they pressing the key, why others, who don't need such stupidity should suffer? >>> >> >> These are two different issue: >> >> 1) CMD-L > > The real solution is to implement undo for cmd-L... > >> 2) Not asking in general and rely on history. >> > This is a good idea but it needs to *work* > > Marcus >

Jan. 9, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

by kilon alios

I was the one that worked on CMD+L dialog. I posted my slice here and it was discussed. I tried to implement undo, but trying to understand undo was a pain in the ass. And yes Igor I am no pro coder, I code like 30 minutes a day max. I am a lawyer that tries to become a pro 2d/3d artist. I enjoy coding and an IDE that punishes me for my mistakes does not make coding enjoyable for me. I think maybe an easy solution is to set all modals to a preference setting so they can be easily disabled, thus making everyone happy. Igor I will be frank with you, coders have no idea how to design good GUIs. They see GUIs as nothing more than an inconvenience and extra coding effort from their part. They usually put out the excuse "I am no designer" yet the truth is that they dont care because they cant understand the importance of a great GUI to the user. Applications like Photoshop are rare example of good GUI design. On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr>wrote: > > On 09 Jan 2014, at 10:50, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr> wrote: > > > On 09 Jan 2014, at 10:45, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On 9 January 2014 10:38, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > >> The history hack did totally not work for end users, many people, >> including myself, lost code, often without noticing or understanding it at >> first. >> >> This 'warning, you did not accept' is/was important and solid, if you >> want to replace that the solution should be really good - it was not. >> >> Don't shoot on Nicolai, he tried to fix it, after asking around. >> >> i'm not shooting anyone, i just sad there is no progress :) > and instead even regress, because now i should also answer 'yes/no' when i > press > cmd-L.. > > If some people will need to be asked are they really really really fucking > sure they wanted to press a key they pressed, each time they pressing the > key, why others, who don't need such stupidity should suffer? > > > These are two different issue: > > 1) CMD-L > > > The real solution is to implement undo for cmd-L... > > 2) Not asking in general and rely on history. > > This is a good idea but it needs to *work* > > Marcus >

Jan. 9, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

by Marcus Denker

On 09 Jan 2014, at 10:50, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr> wrote: > > On 09 Jan 2014, at 10:45, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> >> >> On 9 January 2014 10:38, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: >> The history hack did totally not work for end users, many people, including myself, lost code, often without noticing or understanding it at first. >> >> This 'warning, you did not accept' is/was important and solid, if you want to replace that the solution should be really good - it was not. >> >> Don't shoot on Nicolai, he tried to fix it, after asking around. >> >> i'm not shooting anyone, i just sad there is no progress :) >> and instead even regress, because now i should also answer 'yes/no' when i press >> cmd-L.. >> >> If some people will need to be asked are they really really really fucking sure they wanted to press a key they pressed, each time they pressing the key, why others, who don't need such stupidity should suffer? >> > > These are two different issue: > > 1) CMD-L The real solution is to implement undo for cmd-L... > 2) Not asking in general and rely on history. > This is a good idea but it needs to *work* Marcus

Jan. 9, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

On 09 Jan 2014, at 10:45, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: > and instead even regress, because now i should also answer 'yes/no' when i press > cmd-L.. Ah, but that is not good, I hate double questions myself (like when you say Quit, it ask Are you sure ?)...

Jan. 9, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

by Esteban Lorenzano

what I do not understand is why are why discussing yet once again same issue :) there were tons of mails before the decision of rolling backâ¦ Esteban On 09 Jan 2014, at 10:50, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr> wrote: > > On 09 Jan 2014, at 10:45, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> >> >> On 9 January 2014 10:38, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: >> The history hack did totally not work for end users, many people, including myself, lost code, often without noticing or understanding it at first. >> >> This 'warning, you did not accept' is/was important and solid, if you want to replace that the solution should be really good - it was not. >> >> Don't shoot on Nicolai, he tried to fix it, after asking around. >> >> i'm not shooting anyone, i just sad there is no progress :) >> and instead even regress, because now i should also answer 'yes/no' when i press >> cmd-L.. >> >> If some people will need to be asked are they really really really fucking sure they wanted to press a key they pressed, each time they pressing the key, why others, who don't need such stupidity should suffer? >> > > These are two different issue: > > 1) CMD-L > 2) Not asking in general and rely on history. > > Marcus

Jan. 9, 2014