January 2014 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

by Sebastian Sastre

On Jan 12, 2014, at 5:53 PM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: > And modal popups is clearly against this principle. > Because they > a) make you think > b) draw your energy from what you really should be thinking on.. > > so please explain, how adding yes/no popup to cmd-L command handling helps maintaining this principle better. Some designers think that dialogs (stateful interfaces) are the enemy of usability, and I'm in favor of using them as last resort. Also because users in general, not only programmers, have hard feelings about dialogs What I wasn't checking (lack of usability tests I'm watching you... yet.. again...) was which workflow exactly were you talking about. The cmd-L contains explicit information about discarding changes so asking confirmation is unnecessary. (I thought you were talking about changing focus or the selected method on a browser and discarding changes without asking, sorry if I confused you). Usability tests solves all this and a lot more in half a second. Ok, I'm experimenting a little here and A) Cmd-L is something hidden enough to not be seen by newcomers and B) I get that you can produce an interesting workflow if you are used to do something and use cmd-L as a fast way to undo changes I wasn't even knowing about cmd-L existence, how anybody knows about it? If you ask me what I do for the same case, I'm used to go to method versions and revert to the desired one

Jan. 12, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

by Igor Stasenko

On 12 January 2014 20:11, Sebastian Sastre <sebastian(a)flowingconcept.com>wrote: > > On Jan 12, 2014, at 4:48 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > > - if there is an unaccepted edit, it should not be lost, so we need a > dialog, undo or history > > - if you explicitly cancel an edit, there should not be a dialog, because > you just said you want to cancel > > > Yes, that's the goal. > > And as far as I can see the cheapest solution (to get the best of both > worlds*) is implementing a setting option to prevent dialogs on focus loss. > > I don't care about cost of solution because this is secondary to long standing principles: - do not mode me in (c). ever. because principles should come first. It might be another better more costly solutions though. > > Not at all.. all you need is to change single method: MorphicUIManager>>confirm: aStringOrText "Answer true. This was a modal question dialog, to which user was always responding yes." ^ true > sebastian <https://about.me/sebastianconcept> > > o/ > > * by both worlds I mean > > A) newcomers > B) veterans > > if you reward too much only veterans you'll make Pharo a sub-sub-sub-niche > environment (one that assumes you already are addicted to compensate the UI > vices of it) > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

Jan. 12, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

by Igor Stasenko

On 12 January 2014 20:05, Sebastian Sastre <sebastian(a)flowingconcept.com>wrote: > > On Jan 12, 2014, at 2:54 PM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Which goes in front collision course with the usability principle *"Don't >> make me think" *for designing great user interfaces >> >> How do you see it? Like: > Pharo - programming language that don't makes you think? > > > Did I mention usability principle and user interfaces? > > i'm not sure i understand now, in relation to what you mentioned it.. because .. (read below) > That's pushing the argument Igor. > > A) is the UI that *makes you think* (or not) > B) that's good because you have *more energy to think *in what you > actually are trying to achieve > > And modal popups is clearly against this principle. Because they a) make you think b) draw your energy from what you really should be thinking on.. so please explain, how adding yes/no popup to cmd-L command handling helps maintaining this principle better. -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

Jan. 12, 2014

Arguments to --trace=?

by Martin McClure

Anybody know where to find what the acceptable arguments to --trace on the command line are, and what each means? So far, I've tried: --trace Lots of output --trace=0 No output --trace=1 Looks maybe the same as --trace with no argument --trace=2 No output --trace=3 A whaling big lot of very interesting output Slightly better descriptions of these would be nice. :-) Thanks, -Martin

Jan. 12, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

by Igor Stasenko

On 12 January 2014 19:48, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > Sorry, but it feels there are two discussion mixed: > > - if there is an unaccepted edit, it should not be lost, so we need a > dialog, undo or history > > - if you explicitly cancel an edit, there should not be a dialog, because > you just said you want to cancel > > Logic. > That is how I understand what Igor says, and that is also my opinion. > > Exactly. I pressing Cmd-L, because i *want* all changes to be lost. > On 12 Jan 2014, at 19:43, Sean P. DeNigris <sean(a)clipperadams.com> wrote: > > > Igor Stasenko wrote > >> I am ranting against approach of using modal popups as way to improve or > >> fill gaps in UI. > > > > I understand and agree. And that position is not revolutionary - it's a > > clear case of poor UI design. > > > > And, in this case, I think it's easy enough to lose code ( albeit a > maximum > > of 7 lines, right ;-) ) by accidentally closing a browser. Say cleaning > the > > world of multiple unneeded tools and repeatedly typing cmd+w, forgetting > > that there is unsaved code in 1. Or (which has happened to me) trying to > > close a bunch of error windows that appeared, and accidentally closing > > another window because the window order is not what I expected > > chronologically. > > > > So, only in the absence of undo for what IMHO is a likely error, > especially > > for new users, am I suggesting to keep the pop-ups (which I personally > hate > > and would rather lose code occasionally then be interrupted all the time) > > available for those who want them. > > > > > > > > ----- > > Cheers, > > Sean > > -- > > View this message in context: > http://forum.world.st/Do-you-want-to-accept-Discard-tp4735220p4736163.html > > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at > Nabble.com. > > > > > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

Jan. 12, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

by Sebastian Sastre

On Jan 12, 2014, at 4:48 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > - if there is an unaccepted edit, it should not be lost, so we need a dialog, undo or history > > - if you explicitly cancel an edit, there should not be a dialog, because you just said you want to cancel Yes, that's the goal. And as far as I can see the cheapest solution (to get the best of both worlds*) is implementing a setting option to prevent dialogs on focus loss. It might be another better more costly solutions though. sebastian o/ * by both worlds I mean A) newcomers B) veterans if you reward too much only veterans you'll make Pharo a sub-sub-sub-niche environment (one that assumes you already are addicted to compensate the UI vices of it)

Jan. 12, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

by Sean P. DeNigris

On Jan 12, 2014, at 1:49 PM, "Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 [via Smalltalk]" <ml-node+s1294792n4736165h3(a)n4.nabble.com> wrote: > Sorry, but it feels there are two discussion mixed: > - if there is an unaccepted edit, it should not be lost, so we need a dialog, undo or history Clearly > - if you explicitly cancel an edit, there should not be a dialog, because you just said you want to cancel Yes, and it's the "explicit" where the disagreement comes in. People are saying that closeThisBrowserWindow ~= explicitlyDiscardEdits. Therefore, for them, removing the popup without providing a way to get the code back doesn't work. ----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Do-you-want-to-accept-Discard-tp4735220p4736173.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Jan. 12, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

by Sebastian Sastre

On Jan 12, 2014, at 2:54 PM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Which goes in front collision course with the usability principle "Don't make me think" for designing great user interfaces > > How do you see it? Like: > Pharo - programming language that don't makes you think? Did I mention usability principle and user interfaces? That's pushing the argument Igor. A) is the UI that makes you think (or not) B) that's good because you have more energy to think in what you actually are trying to achieve

Jan. 12, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

Sorry, but it feels there are two discussion mixed: - if there is an unaccepted edit, it should not be lost, so we need a dialog, undo or history - if you explicitly cancel an edit, there should not be a dialog, because you just said you want to cancel Logic. That is how I understand what Igor says, and that is also my opinion. On 12 Jan 2014, at 19:43, Sean P. DeNigris <sean(a)clipperadams.com> wrote: > Igor Stasenko wrote >> I am ranting against approach of using modal popups as way to improve or >> fill gaps in UI. > > I understand and agree. And that position is not revolutionary - it's a > clear case of poor UI design. > > And, in this case, I think it's easy enough to lose code ( albeit a maximum > of 7 lines, right ;-) ) by accidentally closing a browser. Say cleaning the > world of multiple unneeded tools and repeatedly typing cmd+w, forgetting > that there is unsaved code in 1. Or (which has happened to me) trying to > close a bunch of error windows that appeared, and accidentally closing > another window because the window order is not what I expected > chronologically. > > So, only in the absence of undo for what IMHO is a likely error, especially > for new users, am I suggesting to keep the pop-ups (which I personally hate > and would rather lose code occasionally then be interrupted all the time) > available for those who want them. > > > > ----- > Cheers, > Sean > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Do-you-want-to-accept-Discard-tp4735220p4736163.html > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >

Jan. 12, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

by Sean P. DeNigris

Igor Stasenko wrote > I am ranting against approach of using modal popups as way to improve or > fill gaps in UI. I understand and agree. And that position is not revolutionary - it's a clear case of poor UI design. And, in this case, I think it's easy enough to lose code ( albeit a maximum of 7 lines, right ;-) ) by accidentally closing a browser. Say cleaning the world of multiple unneeded tools and repeatedly typing cmd+w, forgetting that there is unsaved code in 1. Or (which has happened to me) trying to close a bunch of error windows that appeared, and accidentally closing another window because the window order is not what I expected chronologically. So, only in the absence of undo for what IMHO is a likely error, especially for new users, am I suggesting to keep the pop-ups (which I personally hate and would rather lose code occasionally then be interrupted all the time) available for those who want them. ----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Do-you-want-to-accept-Discard-tp4735220p4736163.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Jan. 12, 2014