January 2014 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

On 13 Jan 2014, at 13:54, Sebastian Sastre <sebastian(a)flowingconcept.com> wrote: > > On Jan 13, 2014, at 10:25 AM, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr> wrote: > >> Noâ¦. but what I have learned is that any change, even to the good, will be very hard >> to do because people are very much defined by habits. So do not expect the existing users to be >> happyâ¦ itâs sad but it is like that. >> >> The way to make progress is (to somme extend) listen to these complaints and then to just ignore them ;-) >> (Else Pharo browsers would be eye-cancer inducing greenâ¦ and there are I am sure still people who >> would argue that this was better with green windows ;-) > > haha yeah XD > > the good thing about the tests is that you can listen to the complains of who doesn't like it and still have you A/B test results to backup your UI design decisions and... > > A) they don't or > B) they do (so they're transformed in a helping effort) <- unlikely but cool if happens > > So yeah, you won't conform everybody's taste but you'll improve the general User Experience in a demonstrable way > > So how do we start? One small step at a time. Pick one aspect and try to fix it. Highlight the problem, propose a solution, get some consensus, apply. Repeat.

Jan. 13, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] [ANN]: EventRecorderMorph Port to 3.0

by Goubier Thierry

Le 13/01/2014 13:53, kilon alios a Ã©crit : > Guys you are awesome, thanks for this. I can use this for my > documentation project (Prometheas), live documentation that show you how > to get things done by replaying commands . This is too good to be true. > Though with the rate new libraries have been poping up lately you will > actually write the code for me :D > > I am thinking in the right side a small area that will work as a tooltip > displaying a paragraph of documentation with a Try me button to replay > recorded tutorials, preferably with the showing code as example. That would be a very interesting use of it :) Thierry -- Thierry Goubier CEA list Laboratoire des Fondations des SystÃ¨mes Temps RÃ©el EmbarquÃ©s 91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex France Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95

Jan. 13, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

by Sebastian Sastre

On Jan 13, 2014, at 10:25 AM, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr> wrote: > Noâ¦. but what I have learned is that any change, even to the good, will be very hard > to do because people are very much defined by habits. So do not expect the existing users to be > happyâ¦ itâs sad but it is like that. > > The way to make progress is (to somme extend) listen to these complaints and then to just ignore them ;-) > (Else Pharo browsers would be eye-cancer inducing greenâ¦ and there are I am sure still people who > would argue that this was better with green windows ;-) haha yeah XD the good thing about the tests is that you can listen to the complains of who doesn't like it and still have you A/B test results to backup your UI design decisions and... A) they don't or B) they do (so they're transformed in a helping effort) <- unlikely but cool if happens So yeah, you won't conform everybody's taste but you'll improve the general User Experience in a demonstrable way So how do we start? :D

Jan. 13, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] [ANN]: EventRecorderMorph Port to 3.0

by kilon alios

Guys you are awesome, thanks for this. I can use this for my documentation project (Prometheas), live documentation that show you how to get things done by replaying commands . This is too good to be true. Though with the rate new libraries have been poping up lately you will actually write the code for me :D I am thinking in the right side a small area that will work as a tooltip displaying a paragraph of documentation with a Try me button to replay recorded tutorials, preferably with the showing code as example. On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 11:16 AM, Goubier Thierry <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr>wrote: > > > Le 13/01/2014 10:09, roberto.minelli(a)usi.ch a Ã©crit : > > I am working on a similar thing (without the replaying feature). >> I am interested in profiling (i.e., recording) some morphic events. >> > > I use a tracing framework I wrote a long time ago for things like that. > It's called Jejak (http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~ThierryGoubier/Jejak) and > has the ability to trace and record events from running code, even critical > code like Morphic. > > I'm updating it for Pharo3 at the moment. And it would be great to use the > new Opal facilities for doing so... at the moment, it's working by code > rewriting (which is a very portable approach). > > Thierry > > > I will look into this existing recorder, thanks for sharing. >> >> Cheers, >> R >> >> On Jan 13, 2014, at 9:03 AM, Goubier Thierry <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr> >> wrote: >> >> Cool! This is really interesting to have. >>> >>> Executable screencasts... I'll do that next time for teaching with Pharo >>> :) >>> >>> Thierry >>> >>> Le 13/01/2014 04:14, Sean P. DeNigris a Ã©crit : >>> >>>> If you don't know EventRecorderMorph and HandMorphForReplay (which I >>>> didn't >>>> and started to re-implement), they are super cool. >>>> >>>> 1. DoIt: "EventRecorderMorph new openInWorld" >>>> 2. Click "record" in the GUI >>>> 3. Perform some UI actions >>>> 4. Click "play" in the GUI >>>> >>>> Your keyboard and mouse actions will be replayed in the World! I know >>>> right?! Amazing. This could be really cool for live documentation and >>>> executable screencasts :) >>>> >>>> It's just a straight port now, but I'd like to decouple the recorder and >>>> replay hand so that any event source can be used. >>>> >>>> http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~PharoExtras/EventRecorder >>>> >>>> Initial commit: port EventRecorderMorph and HandMorphForReplay >>>> (originally >>>> in MorphicExtras-AdditionalSupport) to Pharo 3.0 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- >>>> Cheers, >>>> Sean >>>> -- >>>> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/ANN- >>>> EventRecorderMorph-Port-to-3-0-tp4736258.html >>>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at >>>> Nabble.com. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> -- >>> Thierry Goubier >>> CEA list >>> Laboratoire des Fondations des SystÃ¨mes Temps RÃ©el EmbarquÃ©s >>> 91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex >>> France >>> Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95 >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > -- > Thierry Goubier > CEA list > Laboratoire des Fondations des SystÃ¨mes Temps RÃ©el EmbarquÃ©s > 91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex > France > Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95 > >

Jan. 13, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Pharo 3.0 not responding to mouse or keyboard after launch

by Nicolai Hess

2014/1/13 Andres Valloud <avalloud(a)smalltalk.comcastbiz.net> > My friend, you need to believe :)... > > Ok, so with Cuis the image hangs (unresponsive to input) when the clock > goes forward. With Pharo 2.0 (just checked), the image hangs when the > clock goes backwards. To verify, simply create a new process that > periodically writes something to the Transcript, such as > > p := [ > [ > (Delay forSeconds: 1) wait. > Transcript cr; show: Time now seconds printString > ] repeat > ] newProcess. > p resume > > then go to the system settings panel, time section, uncheck the automatic > time keeping, bump the clock up by one minute, save (note the skew in the > Transcript output), then re-enable automatic time keeping, make sure the > settings are saved... and now the image is unresponsive. Alt+. does nothing > etc. Wait one minute. After that time, you will get a debugger and things > will start happening again. > > If you can't immediately reproduce it, I really suspect that if you play > with the time for a bit you will get some weird behavior too. > > > On 1/13/14 1:18 , Esteban Lorenzano wrote: > >> Hi Andres, >> >> Pharo (Cuis) does not exitâ¦ I suppose you are talking about the vm from >> Pharo, used with a Cuis imageâ¦ can you confirm that same problem exists in >> pharo-vm with pharo-image? >> >> Esteban >> >> On 13 Jan 2014, at 09:37, Andres Valloud <avalloud@smalltalk. >> comcastbiz.net> wrote: >> >> Try the following on OS X... >>> >>> 1. Launch Pharo (Cuis). >>> >>> 2. Go to the System Settings time panel. >>> >>> 3. Disable automatic time updates. >>> >>> 4. Bump the clock forward by 1 minute. >>> >>> 5. Check whether Pharo is still responsive (in the case of Cuis, it's >>> frozen). >>> >>> 6. Wait one minute. >>> >>> 7. Check whether Pharo is still responsive (in the case of Cuis, it's >>> responsive again). >>> >>> >>> As a variation, disable automatic time updates, then bump the clock >>> backwards by 1 minute. Things still work. Then re-enable automatic time >>> updates. When the clock goes forward, the prediction is that Pharo (Cuis) >>> will be frozen for 1 minute. >>> >>> If this repeats for you, then also look at /var/log/system.log and see >>> how many entries are there for NTP. If you see that NTP periodically >>> adjusts the clock forward, then you can also expect that Pharo (Cuis) will >>> periodically be frozen for as much time as NTP (and, on OS X 10.9, >>> pacemaker) bumps the clock forward. >>> >>> I can reproduce this behavior on OS X 10.9 with a modern Cog VM and Cuis >>> images. >>> >>> On 1/13/14 0:22 , Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Andres, >>>> >>>> Could you describe in some detail how to make something clearly fail >>>> related to this issue ? >>>> >>>> There have been mysterious time(r) related problems in the past, it >>>> would be good to follow up on something concrete and repeatable. >>>> >>>> Thx, >>>> >>>> Sven >>>> >>>> On 12 Jan 2014, at 04:41, Andres Valloud <avalloud@smalltalk. >>>> comcastbiz.net> wrote: >>>> >>>> Somewhat related only, but FYI something I've noticed with Cog VMs is >>>>> that if you bump the computer clock forward by e.g. 30 seconds then Cuis >>>>> remains frozen for 30 seconds. Under the assumption that Cuis and Pharo >>>>> are close enough, and considering that alt+. does not bring up a debugger >>>>> while the image remains frozen, I can't help asking whether the VM is >>>>> setting up OS alarms at a certain wall clock hour instead of setting up >>>>> timers that expire after N time has elapsed (irrespective of the wall >>>>> clock). If the VM is setting up alarms at wall clock hours, then I'd >>>>> strongly suggest changing that behavior because of NTP, time zone >>>>> adjustments, etc. >>>>> >>>>> BTW, I found this because apparently Mavericks isn't keeping time that >>>>> great and NTP frequently changes the clock by ~2 seconds. >>>>> >>>>> On 1/11/14 19:29 , Martin McClure wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I'm beginning to suspect that delays are not expiring at the OS level >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> . >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> . >> >> > Yes, chaging the system time is a known issue for pharos linux-vm: 11324 <https://pharo.fogbugz.com/default.asp?11324> Image freeze when changing system time

Jan. 13, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Nautilus Accept Weirdness

by Marcus Denker

On 13 Jan 2014, at 10:41, Nicolai Hess <nicolaihess(a)web.de> wrote: > 2014/1/13 Sean P. DeNigris <sean(a)clipperadams.com> > In 30690, sometimes pressing cmd+s in the Nautilus code pane throws up the > dreaded "discard edits" confirmation pop up, and then after confirming, all > the packages in the tree get crunched up (i.e. lose their layout and overlap > each other at the top of the tree pane). Is anyone else experiencing this? > Anyone know how to reproduce (I don't)? > > Thanks. > > > > ----- > Cheers, > Sean > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Nautilus-Accept-Weirdness-tp4736247.html > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > > Yes me, > > happens to me since 30684. > Everytime you change a method of a class and this changes makes an unchanged package > dirty the package list shrinks to one entry and it prompts for cancel. > I took a 30683 image updated manually to 30684 and this doesn't happend. > I downloaded a 30684 image and this bug happens. > Are there any other changes since 30683 that are not listed in the scriptloader log? > We call âImageCleaner cleanUpForReleaseâ again after every buildâ¦ starting with 30684. Marcus

Jan. 13, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Pharo 3.0 not responding to mouse or keyboard after launch

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/12639/Image-hangs-on-clock-changes On 13 Jan 2014, at 13:24, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > Confirmed, I turn it into an issue. > > Thanks for reporting this, Andres. > > On 13 Jan 2014, at 13:23, Andres Valloud <avalloud(a)smalltalk.comcastbiz.net> wrote: > >> My friend, you also need to believe :)... >> >> Checked with Pharo 3.0, misbehavior reproduced. >> >> I'm done hanging various versions of Pharo and Cuis on my machine. It's someone else's turn now :D. >> >> On 1/13/14 4:17 , Marcus Denker wrote: >>> >>> On 13 Jan 2014, at 13:10, Andres Valloud <avalloud(a)smalltalk.comcastbiz.net> wrote: >>> >>>> My friend, you need to believe :)... >>>> >>>> Ok, so with Cuis the image hangs (unresponsive to input) when the clock goes forward. With Pharo 2.0 (just checked), >>> >>> It might be better to check in Pharo3â¦ there where changes >>> e.g. >>> >>> 7444 Synchronizing DateAndTime with system OS date and time >>> https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/7444 >>> >>> Marcus >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >

Jan. 13, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

by Marcus Denker

On 13 Jan 2014, at 12:56, Sebastian Sastre <sebastian(a)flowingconcept.com> wrote: > On Jan 13, 2014, at 4:21 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > >> Please do, Sebastian, start discussing about ways to improve the basic UI, you seem to have an interest in the subject. It will of course be quite hard with so many opinions. > > Yeah, I get what you mean but that's hard only if we stay speculating on opinions instead of experiments and tests and data. > > One or two experiments solves any UI dispute in an afternoon (ok maybe two). > > The least I can do is to help our community to get our discussion started. > > Probably as a naive attempt towards those experiments. > > So question, I am the only one interested in an improved Pharo user experience? > Noâ¦. but what I have learned is that any change, even to the good, will be very hard to do because people are very much defined by habits. So do not expect the existing users to be happyâ¦ itâs sad but it is like that. The way to make progress is (to somme extend) listen to these complaints and then to just ignore them ;-) (Else Pharo browsers would be eye-cancer inducing greenâ¦ and there are I am sure still people who would argue that this was better with green windows ;-) Marcus

Jan. 13, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Pharo 3.0 not responding to mouse or keyboard after launch

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

Confirmed, I turn it into an issue. Thanks for reporting this, Andres. On 13 Jan 2014, at 13:23, Andres Valloud <avalloud(a)smalltalk.comcastbiz.net> wrote: > My friend, you also need to believe :)... > > Checked with Pharo 3.0, misbehavior reproduced. > > I'm done hanging various versions of Pharo and Cuis on my machine. It's someone else's turn now :D. > > On 1/13/14 4:17 , Marcus Denker wrote: >> >> On 13 Jan 2014, at 13:10, Andres Valloud <avalloud(a)smalltalk.comcastbiz.net> wrote: >> >>> My friend, you need to believe :)... >>> >>> Ok, so with Cuis the image hangs (unresponsive to input) when the clock goes forward. With Pharo 2.0 (just checked), >> >> It might be better to check in Pharo3â¦ there where changes >> e.g. >> >> 7444 Synchronizing DateAndTime with system OS date and time >> https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/7444 >> >> Marcus >> >> >> >> >

Jan. 13, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Pharo 3.0 not responding to mouse or keyboard after launch

by Andres Valloud

My friend, you also need to believe :)... Checked with Pharo 3.0, misbehavior reproduced. I'm done hanging various versions of Pharo and Cuis on my machine. It's someone else's turn now :D. On 1/13/14 4:17 , Marcus Denker wrote: > > On 13 Jan 2014, at 13:10, Andres Valloud <avalloud(a)smalltalk.comcastbiz.net> wrote: > >> My friend, you need to believe :)... >> >> Ok, so with Cuis the image hangs (unresponsive to input) when the clock goes forward. With Pharo 2.0 (just checked), > > It might be better to check in Pharo3â¦ there where changes > e.g. > > 7444 Synchronizing DateAndTime with system OS date and time > https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/7444 > > Marcus > > > >

Jan. 13, 2014