May 2013 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] clean, please

by Frank Shearar

On 22 May 2013 19:06, Paul Davidowitz <pdavidow(a)fastmail.fm> wrote: > I was referring to text used in this mailing list, particularly words of > the form *u** Your regular expression's malformed, but considered as a String >> #match: string it's almost right... and 'Squeak' would match that! Hmm, so would 'future'. Oops! frank

May 22, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] MC Filetree -- missing FiletreeURL ?

by Frank Shearar

On 22 May 2013 18:29, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > Frank, > > On 22 May 2013, at 14:55, Frank Shearar <frank.shearar(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> On 22 May 2013 13:44, Camillo Bruni <camillobruni(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> On 2013-05-22, at 14:36, Frank Shearar <frank.shearar(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> On 22 May 2013 13:20, Camillo Bruni <camillobruni(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> On 2013-05-22, at 14:02, Frank Shearar <frank.shearar(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On 22 May 2013 12:49, stephane ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)free.fr> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ./pharo Pharo.image config filetree://`pwd`/../src/ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Fails on trying to execute #mcRepositoryAsUser:withPassword: on a GenericUrl >>>>>>>>> instance inside Gofer. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Yep, I'd agree with your assessment. Has Pharo forked Gofer, or does >>>>>>>> it still use Lukas Renggli's repository? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We forked it. We cannot built a part of our infrastructure on a project that can vanished in nature. >>>>>> >>>>>> Well. What I should have asked was "have you cloned the repository >>>>>> with the intention of pushing improvements upstream, or have you >>>>>> forked the project with no intention of pushing changes upstream?" >>>>> >>>>> well, check on how much we changed in detail and them come back. >>>> >>>> Sorry, was that supposed to be an answer? I must go find out how much >>>> work you've done before guessing whether you've forked and abandoned >>>> upstream? >>> >>> abandon or progress that's the question here. >> >> That's a false dichotomy. There's a middle path, where you do the MC >> equivalent of a pull request. Now there's something useful to aim for: >> GitHub works so very, very well because it's utterly trivial to make >> upstream repositories know you have improvements lying around. Because >> fragmentation of your committer base _does not help you_ in the long >> run. >> >> Now if the upstream maintainer _dies_, sure, that's a different story. >> >>>> Like I said: What I want to know is this: if I want to make a change >>>> to infrastructure common to multiple Smalltalks, does Pharo expect me >>>> to submit special unique snowflake additions to Pharo AND to upstream? >>> >>> well if you expect us to push anything upstream then have a look at the >>> massive amount of changes that happened since pharo 1.0. >> >> I don't care about Pharo 1.0 in the context of this discussion. I care >> about one particular package, one that should have no UI elements in >> it or similar nasty sources of entanglement. (I have attempted to port >> quite a few Pharo packages to Squeak. Lack of separation between UI >> and core functionality has been the only reason I've had to abandon a >> port, thus far.) And certainly Gofer as it's pulled in via Metacello >> (er, which one? The upstream one, not Pharo's fork of same) works fine >> in Pharo, Squeak and Gemstone, and wherever else Metacello and Gofer >> run. I should _not_ have to submit to more than one repository to add >> functionality to Gofer. >> >>> There IS a reason pharo forked from squeak... >> >> I'm not pursuing this thread: it's my understanding that the fork was >> largely political, and personal, and that's as far as I'm going to >> talk about it. > > Well, you are wrong about the reasons for the fork, IMO. But it is a done deal. (See my answer to Janko). Am I? I spent a good hour crawling through squeak-dev for the time period 2007-2008. The Board was around at the time, and I saw nothing in their communications to indicate anything about a fork. So whatever happened, happened in secrecy, in private mails, in person. Ways that left no public trace. And, in my opinion, if people did unethical things to certain members of the community, then I think they should be named and shamed. The split was _bad_ for the community. I understand that Stef and Marcus did what they felt they had to do, and I think it's a crying shame that they were forced into such drastic action. It's now 5 or 6 years later and it's still an open wound. > Now, for library/framework developers/maintainers it is hard to be compatible with different Smalltalk implementations. It is not impossible, but requires manpower, interest and will. Recently, only Fuel managed to do that (of the bigger projects). Yes, it _is_ hard, and I _greatly_ appreciate the efforts not just of Max, Martin and Mariano but also the Metacello community (especially Dale, who has suffered for his project) on making things work across platforms. I try do what little I can to help to support them. Again thanks to Dale, I can have my various libraries running against Pharo (although I see I need to add Pharo 2.0 to my Control library's matrix). So I try make sure that my Squeak work's available for Pharo users. > Sven > > PS: I occasionally read the Squeak mailing and I see the work that you are doing and it is impressive. Your attitude, approach and drive remind me of the many Pharo developers. I would not dream of convincing you, but IMHO you would fit perfectly in the Pharo community, where you would find more interaction and feedback - maybe you would even reconsider using Smalltalk in business. Thanks, Sven. I'm really not trying to pick fights over here. And perhaps today was a bad day to open my mouth at all, given my crankiness level. I would _love_ to be able to use Smalltalk at work. Until it can work properly with git, and people can use their own text editors (vim, emacs, sublime), and quite a few other bits and pieces, it's just a non-starter. I _like_ Pharo, and I _like_ how it has energy and momentum, and a much nicer UI than the old Pharo 1.0 UI. I'm honestly quite jealous of the resources the community wields, not just because of INRIA's and the Consortium's money, but because there are loads of people actually around, who are prepared to knuckle down and do the gruntwork needed. Squeak is now a very small community. I'm rather proud of what we get done with what little we have. frank

May 22, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] TxText new version 0.8

by Tudor Girba

Hi, On May 22, 2013, at 5:33 PM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On 22 May 2013 10:38, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: >> I would use >> >> TextModelCore >> TextModelExtensions >> >> TextModelCore-Tests >> >> No extra dash in the middle. > > nooooo :) > > But for tests, i +1, the names are not very good. > For package: > > Package-Name-Tick-Tack > > tests should be in: > > Package-Name-Tick-Tack-Tests > > This convention used everywhere in pharo. Please do not do that :). If you do that, publishing Package-Name-Tick-Tack will publish the code from Package-Name-Tick-Tack-Tests, too :). Why? Because we have a lovely implicit one-to-many mapping. So, the pattern I know of is to put the Tests as a discriminator before the variable part of your code. So, something like: - BaseName-Core - BaseName-Tests-Core But, the rule I apply more recently for code is to use - only for categories, and camel case for the Monticello packages. Like this we also document what is the unit of publishing, thus when you look into the code browser we also know what is mapped on a Monticello package. Cheers, Doru >> Stef >> >> On May 21, 2013, at 10:24 PM, Denis Kudriashov <dionisiydk(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> 2013/5/21 stephane ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)free.fr> >>> >>> >>> On May 21, 2013, at 9:00 AM, Denis Kudriashov <dionisiydk(a)gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>> 2013/5/20 stephane ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)free.fr> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hello. >>>> >>>> New TxText version 0.8 is ready: >>>> >>>> - editor stuff extracted to separate packages TxText-Editor and >>>> TxTextTests-Editor >>>> >>>> may be you should call the second package TxTextEditor-Tests >>> >>> >>> I just follow convention of other TxText packages: TxText-Model -> >>> TxTextTests-Model, TxText-Layout -> TxTextTests-Layout and etc. >>> Some times ago I suggest such repackaging and nobody was against it >>> >>> >>> Still I think that the packages names are not good. I do not hitnk that >>> having tests mixed with the package name is a good approach >>> and we should clean all of them for 3.0 >> >> >> So what the correct way (Pharo way) to name test packages? >> For example I have 'MyPackage-SubCat1-SubCat2'. What name for test package >> should be? >> >>> >>> >>> Stef >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko. > -- www.tudorgirba.com "Value is always contextual."

May 22, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] MC Filetree -- missing FiletreeURL ?

by Frank Shearar

On 22 May 2013 16:42, stephane ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)free.fr> wrote: >> I believe the things I do regarding the fork because of personal >> conversations with people close to the decision. > > Fun because we are the people who took the decisions and we never got a real discussions > so far. So this means that so far you got discussions with people that believe that they > know why we forked but may be these people have only a partial view on it. ;D I'm going back on my word by engaging with this. I do not think either you or Marcus are egotists. I do think it is a crying shame that the split occurred. I don't understand the reasons, and by now they really don't matter. I've heard things from someone here about stuff that happened, but I can only take him at his word, because whatever happened happened off-list. > People should simply look at what our acts! We are not doing Pharo for us but because we believe in a smalltalk > way of programming. But we want more much more than an old ST-80 system. As do I. My issue with the way I've seen Pharo operate is this: Pharo uses some project. The original maintainer or maintainers don't respond quickly enough for Pharo's liking, so Pharo forks the repo and abandons upstream. That means that while Pharo's needs might be met, everyone else is worse off. The upstream maintainers become disillusioned with trying to keep up with the the churn in the base image, and give up. This has happened time and again. Now I completely understand the need to get stuff done NOW. What I'd like to see is some effort made to play nicely with the other communities. (And I think that keeping Camillo and Max and friends gainfully employed on improving git integration is an excellent way to do this - hosting on github makes pushing changes upstream so easy that we can hopefully avoid this pattern of fork-and-abandon.) frank

May 22, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] [Pharo-project] Understanding NBOpenGL

by kilon

I am looking at NBGLContextDriver and NBGLDisplay and I see none of that hard coded stuff. I assume you mean the platform specific packages like NBMacGLContextDriver ,NBGLXContextDriver etc. where I see alot of platform specific code inside the methods of those classes . -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Understanding-NBOpenGL-tp4686514p4689211.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

May 22, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] clean, please

by Paul Davidowitz

I was referring to text used in this mailing list, particularly words of the form *u**

May 22, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] MC Filetree -- missing FiletreeURL ?

by stephane ducasse

+1 > Now, for library/framework developers/maintainers it is hard to be compatible with different Smalltalk implementations. It is not impossible, but requires manpower, interest and will. Recently, only Fuel managed to do that (of the bigger projects). > > Sven > > PS: I occasionally read the Squeak mailing and I see the work that you are doing and it is impressive. Your attitude, approach and drive remind me of the many Pharo developers. I would not dream of convincing you, but IMHO you would fit perfectly in the Pharo community, where you would find more interaction and feedback - maybe you would even reconsider using Smalltalk in business. > > > -- > Sven Van Caekenberghe > http://stfx.eu > Smalltalk is the Red Pill > >

May 22, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] [Pharo-project] Understanding NBOpenGL

by kilon

Hey Igor , yes I would love to contrinbute to NBOpenGL for a very long time. I could at least fix those small errors like the one I reported and add documentation to methods and especially classes. I am using pharo 3.0 and GLTTRenderingDemo does not work. I get an error. Apparently it cannot find ShortPointArray which is initialised inside TTCountourConstruction>>asCompressedPoints I remember having same issues with pharo 2.0 too. I am also confused how to use NBGLCurveRenderer. Thank you for your detailed explanation I have tried GLViewportMorphic I see no errors , so its should work fine. I am new to opengl myself , and smalltalk and nativeboost so I try to understand as much I can before doing actual coding and I feel I am at that stage that I can do and I would love to contribute my work back to pharo because I plan to implement at least a basic 3d engine and very basic MoprhicGL GUI. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Understanding-NBOpenGL-tp4686514p4689207.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

May 22, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] clean, please

by Esteban A. Maringolo

Anything but my keyboard. :) Esteban A. Maringolo 2013/5/22 Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> > The kitchen, the living room ? > > On 22 May 2013, at 19:49, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > On 22 May 2013 19:41, Paul Davidowitz <pdavidow(a)fastmail.fm> wrote: > >> Let's keep this clean, please! > >> > > > > keep clean what? > > > > -- > > Best regards, > > Igor Stasenko. > > > > >

May 22, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] clean, please

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

The kitchen, the living room ? On 22 May 2013, at 19:49, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On 22 May 2013 19:41, Paul Davidowitz <pdavidow(a)fastmail.fm> wrote: >> Let's keep this clean, please! >> > > keep clean what? > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko. >

May 22, 2013