April 2013 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Tiger athens with objc bridge demo

by Benjamin

Cool :) Ben On Apr 17, 2013, at 3:59 PM, Max Leske <maxleske(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Cool! Especially the popup window :) > > On 17.04.2013, at 15:49, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_bfSz2tus0 >> >> Enjoy, >> Esteban >> >> ps: small... and this time I do not speak. So is a win-win :) >> > >

April 17, 2013

Re: [Pharo-project] [Sprint] Sprint Lille May 3rd

by Benjamin

cool :) Ben On Apr 17, 2013, at 2:07 PM, Sean P. DeNigris <sean(a)clipperadams.com> wrote: > Marcus Denker-4 wrote >> We are planning a sprint the 3rd of May: > > I want to join again via IRC/skype from NYC. It worked out well last time... > > > > ----- > Cheers, > Sean > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Sprint-Sprint-Lille-May-3rd-tp4682097p4682106.html > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >

April 17, 2013

Re: [Pharo-project] Tiger athens with objc bridge demo

by kilon

I would prefer it long and with you speaking, but I guess you cant please everyone Great job and thanks for making this bridge. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Tiger-athens-with-objc-bridge-demo-tp4682126p4682135.… Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

April 17, 2013

[Pharo-project] Xtreams's FileDirectory dependence

by Frank Shearar

Xtreams depends on FileDirectory in at least three places, all in the Xtreams-Terminals package. (Three messages on FileUrl, #appending, #reading, #writing; two tests in XTFileReadingWritingTest >> #setUp and #tearDown) Pharo 2.0 has no FileDirectory. So it seems like the easiest (not necessarily simple, nor right) thing to is to break that out into Xtreams-Terminals-Squeak and Xtreams-Terminals-Pharo packages, and similarly for the tests. After that, we'd need to adjust the ConfigurationOfXtreams. I think I forgot to fulfil a promise to submit an updated version of this that loaded FFI correctly (sorry!). Thoughts? Do any Pharo folk load Xtreams? frank

April 17, 2013

Re: [Pharo-project] do you know what is this?

by phil＠highoctane.be

True, you have a point. 2013/4/17 Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> > On 17 April 2013 13:34, phil(a)highoctane.be <phil(a)highoctane.be> wrote: > > Of course we can still understand with an all in image style (leveraging > > ObjCBridge and NB). > > > > But it will be hard to study how things are occuring internally when > leaving > > the image. e.g. using components from the OSX Frameworks for things like > > text editors may be powerful but ultimately, this will make us into > "users" > > and not technology owners (mmmh, hard to explain what I want to convey). > > > Well, you always have a choice to write everything from scratch :) > > For instance, try implement own sockets library or file system (not FS > as in Pharo, > but FS which deals with disks - ext, ext2, FAT, NTFS etc ;). > > > Pharo is an interesting platform to *really* understand how things do > work > > at a low level. > > > > I agree with your view on doing most inside the image, plugins and stuff > is > > actually hard to understand and master (I've been cutting my teeth at > this > > for something like a year and still am a super n00b). > > > > One cool thing I'd like to have working is CUDA or OpenCL for example. > That > > would be easier to do if on the image side of course. > > > > Phil > > > > > > 2013/4/17 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> > >> > >> Hi Phil, > >> > >> On Apr 17, 2013, at 9:26 AM, "phil(a)highoctane.be" <phil(a)highoctane.be> > >> wrote: > >> > >> Regarding this, of the key points of Pharo is that most of the system is > >> able to be looked at from a lot of angles in source code form. > >> > >> > >> I do not understand this... why do you think that now you can do that > and > >> with an all-in-image approach you cannot? > >> > >> > >> Removing that ability is not going to be nice. > >> > >> > >> why do you think that this will remove it? > >> > >> Esteban > >> > >> > >> But this doesn't mean we can't go the other way around of course, > allowing > >> it to embrace new technical possibilities. But as extensions to a core > that > >> stays under full control. > >> > >> At the moment, I've been tinkering with the idea of integrating a 3D > demo > >> engine (DirectX based) with Pharo. > >> > >> The engine will get an API and being scripted from the Pharo side. > >> > >> The engine can currently do things like: > >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRnogMokS_8 > >> > >> Phil > >> > >> Phil > >> > >> > >> 2013/4/17 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> > >>> > >>> Hi, > >>> > >>> This is just the cairo library rendering in a quartz format. No native > >>> quartz access yet, so... > >>> > >>> 1) yes... is 100% compatible with Cairo (because it is Cairo :) > >>> 2) no GPU, no OpenGL, just optimized rendering (one of this days I will > >>> write the novel "how we render world canvas nowadays"... it is a > thriller > >>> end-of-the-world story) > >>> > >>> we are thinking with Igor if a quartz native renderer has sense right > >>> now. Of course, in the long term, it has completely sense, but atm, I > have > >>> the feeling that other more portable renderer (like an OpenGL > renderer) is > >>> better investment. > >>> Anyway, we still have some other stuff to do before: > >>> > >>> - finish athens (including new text model) > >>> - finish bridge > >>> - test same with linux, windows > >>> etc. > >>> > >>> On Apr 17, 2013, at 7:50 AM, Denis Kudriashov <dionisiydk(a)gmail.com> > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>> Hi > >>> > >>> 2013/4/17 Fernando Olivero <fernando.olivero(a)usi.ch> > >>>> > >>>> NICE work Esteban! > >>>> > >>>> Does the AthensQuartzSurface, support all Athens related code? (paths, > >>>> paints,etc..) I will be more than happy to move away from the software > >>>> rendering of the current cairo backend. > >>> > >>> > >>> Is Quartz work by GPU? is it use openGL? > >>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Fernando > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Tue, Apr 16, 2013 at 8:41 PM, Esteban Lorenzano < > estebanlm(a)gmail.com> > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > not to say about efficiency. > >>>> > > >>>> > I've been doing some cpu cycle tests. > >>>> > > >>>> > Rendering a 1600@1200 gradient to world canvas (repeat each 50ms): > >>>> > ~90% cpu consumption > >>>> > > >>>> > Same test, but sending it direct to window canvas using bridge: ~40% > >>>> > cpu consumption > >>>> > > >>>> > so... we are in the good path :) > >>>> > > >>>> > Esteban > >>>> > > >>>> > On Apr 16, 2013, at 8:28 PM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > >>>> > > >>>> >> On 16 April 2013 19:09, kilon <thekilon(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > >>>> >>> And you guys then say that pharo is not macos first citizen > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> ha > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> ha > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> and > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> ha > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> I am a macos user , I love my imac and macos, but my vote goes to > >>>> >>> cross > >>>> >>> platform. > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> Still another great library that is more than welcomed, definitely > >>>> >>> cant do > >>>> >>> any harm ;) > >>>> >>> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> By saying that we don't need Cairo on MacOS i meant following: > >>>> >> > >>>> >> Athens designed to support multiple backends. > >>>> >> It is out of question, that better to use most suitable backend, > >>>> >> available on current platform. > >>>> >> > >>>> >> But apart of it stays ObjC bridge. Which would allow us to speak > with > >>>> >> ObjC-runtime > >>>> >> (and Mac VM using it) directly. > >>>> >> > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> -- > >>>> >>> View this message in context: > >>>> >>> > http://forum.world.st/Fwd-do-you-know-what-is-this-tp4681962p4681975.html > >>>> >>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > >>>> >>> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> -- > >>>> >> Best regards, > >>>> >> Igor Stasenko. > >>>> >> > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > > > > > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko. > >

April 17, 2013

Re: [Pharo-project] do you know what is this?

by phil＠highoctane.be

Very interesting email, worth a post somewhere. 2013/4/17 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> > Hi, > > On Apr 17, 2013, at 11:23 AM, kilon <thekilon(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > > > Anyway, my only objection is the fact that we will have twice the code to > > maintain and more to worry about. > > let me explain this little thing a bit... > > Do you think that code doesn't need to be maintained and taken care how it > is right now? > > I will draw you a picture of how it works this now > > /----------------------------------------------\ > | "Pretended wonderland" (image) | > =========================== > | Lots of things: I/O, FFI, etc. | > ----------------------------------------------- > | Virtual Machine (Cog, Stack, Int) | > \----------------------------------------------/ > > This is your world right now. You work on "pretended wonderland" side, > assuming that everything below will work and hence you "don't need" to > maintain what is below wonderland, isn't? > > Well, wrong. > > Everything need to be maintained. What you do not see too (you do not see > it, but it is there, oh yes). > The difference is: > > - in wonderland, everybody can try to fix things (even id they fail, it is > there to play/change/adapt) > - in levels below, there are just a few people on earth who actually can > maintain that: Igor, myself and some others, but is for sure less than ten > people. > In fact, what happens now is that I have to maintain not two, but three > different versions of the same thing (for each platform), in two different > languages (C and Objective-C) and three different sets of libraries. And > yes, I "personalize" and use the "I" instead "we" because most of the > times is me, with some really valuable from Igor and Camillo (but well, > they do Athens and a PhD respectively, so many times is just a > one-man-work). > > So, what actually happens now is that problems stack waiting for a > solution, a solution which btw will never be of total satisfaction of users. > As an example, let's see the display plugin (which of course is not a > plugin at all, if you remove that from vm, it stops to work). > > Display plugin is based in BitBlt, who creates/transforms bitmaps and > renders them into screen. > Forget about 2D vectorial graphics (or any thing that can bebefict of > using of GPU). > This technology is obsolete and retina displays on mac prove that: there > is no way to do it work fine (that means: good rendering and good > performance). > > So we need to change that. > > How to do it? There are two basic approaches possible: > The traditional one says that some "gurus" should write a new plugin > (ideally backward compatible with the previous one). Then you have an > updated plugin (and probably a perfect one, if you don't want to maintain > it), until next time technology changes and then the gurus can be summoned > again to do their magic. > As you can see, since our community of potential gurus is (with luck) ten > persons in the world, that does not scales at all. > > Then it is our approach: move to the image all the things that can be > moved. Then you will have this: > > /----------------------------------------------\ > | "Pretended wonderland" | > ----------------------------------------------- > | Abstract system layer in image | > | (that most of people will never | > | see anyway) | > =========================== > | Virtual Machine (Cog, Stack, Int) | > \----------------------------------------------/ > > With NativeBoost we can achieve same performance that we achieve using > plain C. > And we have an incredible huge extra bonus: it is there so everybody can > try to modify/fix/update if needed, not just the gurus. > And we also have much more advantages to show: this is moving also the low > level programing to "pharo way", and as I showed in my silly videos, is > bring the "immediate feedback" experience also to that level (something > that you could never achieve with older way of thinking) > And finally... been in image does not need that you will need to deal with > that. How many of you know of the internals of Zinc/Zodiac or the Weak > Registry? (just to put a couple of examples). Most of us just take it and > use it. > > Our path is to bring to the whole community the power to change everything > in your environment. To change it live, in the pharo way. > And some times I feel that it is a power that the community is afraid to > take :) > > lose your fear: having that power feels good :) > > And again: do you still think there is no need for maintain low level > stuff? Think again. > > cheers, > Esteban > > >

April 17, 2013

Re: [Pharo-project] Tiger athens with objc bridge demo

by Max Leske

Cool! Especially the popup window :) On 17.04.2013, at 15:49, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> wrote: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_bfSz2tus0 > > Enjoy, > Esteban > > ps: small... and this time I do not speak. So is a win-win :) >

April 17, 2013

[Pharo-project] Tiger athens with objc bridge demo

by Esteban Lorenzano

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_bfSz2tus0 Enjoy, Esteban ps: small... and this time I do not speak. So is a win-win :)

April 17, 2013

Re: [Pharo-project] do you know what is this?

by kilon

Esteban I was replying to PhillipeBeck post, I think that is what he meant, to move things to smalltalk side instead of relying to external libraries. Unless I misunderstood his post . -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Fwd-do-you-know-what-is-this-tp4681962p4682118.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

April 17, 2013

Re: [Pharo-project] do you know what is this?

by Esteban Lorenzano

On Apr 17, 2013, at 2:35 PM, kilon <thekilon(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > > Porting everything to smalltalk is not a realistic or a very useful > scenario. Whos is going to port Cocoa to Morphic > come on lets see some hands raising :D The idea never was to move everything. In fact is just the opposite. Morphic is, from a point of view, an attempt of replicate the native graphics/widgets libraries, already present in modern O.S. into the image. If you look close, today you are already using cocoa... just a small subset of it but is cocoa after all. You use cocoa to create a canvas and display a huge bitmap inside (the world), who actually displays some widgets who resembles something that is already there (windows, buttons, lists, etc.)... so, who rewrote everything and who don't? The idea is: move into the image everything that can be moved there (and makes sense). Esteban

April 17, 2013