December 2013 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] Solaris VM ?

by Andreas Wacknitz

Hi Jannik, PharoVM is based on Cog. My old VMâs were traditional SqueakVMâs. I am not aware of precompiled Solaris VMâs based on Cog or PharoVM, so you have to build them by yourself. This should be possible; you only need some supporting libraries (e.g. GMP (earlier named GNUmp) and MPFR)) and probably CMake. When I did compile it for myself I used Solaris 10 (both, x86 and SPARC). Which variant do your customers have? Nowadays there are Solaris 10, Solaris 11, and a bunch of OpenSolaris derivates. There are some differences in the tool chains and libraries (versions). If you are not familiar with Solaris or UNIX you should be aware that UNIX in Squeakâs view is (most probably only) Linux. And this is problematic because you will most probably find some areas where there are differences between a ârealâ UNIX (like Solaris) and Linux. Good luck, Andreas Am 02.12.2013 um 15:12 schrieb jannik laval <jannik.laval(a)gmail.com>: > Hi, > > After a while, I have the information. This is a x86 (this is not for me). > I will try to install a Solaris VM, and install a Pharo on top. > > Jannik > > > 2013/11/27 Andreas Wacknitz <a.wacknitz(a)gmx.de> > Hi Jannik, > > some time ago I was able to compile the old Squeak VM on Solaris (SPARC and x86). > I havenât tried it for a long time, especially not with Cog or StackVM. > Which version of Solaris are you using? > > Best regards, > Andreas > > Am 25.11.2013 um 22:50 schrieb jannik.laval <jannik.laval(a)gmail.com>: > > > Hi guys, > > > > Does anyone know if Pharo can work on a Solaris System ? > > > > Cheers, > > Jannik > > > > > > > > -- > ~~Jannik Laval~~ > Ãcole des Mines de Douai > Enseignant-chercheur > http://www.jannik-laval.eu > http://car.mines-douai.fr/ >

Dec. 2, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] Responsible development

by Yuriy Tymchuk

On 02 Dec 2013, at 16:40, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > First, if you break your tools and do a loop in traditional world then you live with it. > > Second, if you see what guillermo is doing: running multiple core side by side (this is a first step because there is no supervisor > and we are in shared memory) but this could be a solution. > > Third > " > I was doing something in in Nautilus, and it started rising errors, which is ok (well, itâs not ok, but this happens during so rapid development). But then I clicked on something in Nautilus and ended up in the infinite loop. Shouldnât we develop our tools in a more friendly way? When my finder freezes I donât have to restart OS X, but when Nautilus freezes I have to restart Pharo." > > such kind of reports are useless. I do not count the number of time my mac application crash on me including the finder. > I would not say that pharo is less stable that Mac OS from my perspective. Especially when I see the knid of changes > we are doing. > > Fourth we are in alpha and nautilus was massively changed. I expect a lot more bugs, because such browser is complex. > > > Stef > > Iâm not complaining that new tools are bad. Iâm gust telling that Iâd prefer other ones in first place. E.i. old class browser running in a separate thread instead of nautilus, tools for traits instead of slots etcâ¦ Iâm not saying that slots are bad, no they are amazing. But traits are powerful to but not widely used because we lack tools. The same bothers me with slots. Because we will need a tools for that, and example with traits shows that we are not that good in it. Once again, this is just my vision, and it seems to me that we are building skyscraper on soil instead of creating a concrete base for it. Although you have more experience so maybe itâs better the way it is. uko > > >>>> Yes, This is a nice idea, but I was telling about the other thing. Itâs really simple to start a new process in Pharo. Maybe we should introduce common practices in pharo? When I was following Obj-C course, one of the fundamental thing that was taught: do time consuming tasks in the other process. >>> >>> >>> forking processes is not a solution. because you can have shared resources problems and updates and â¦. >> >> Yes, you risk races which could be tricky to find/debug. >> >> I'm **very** interested what's the solution you propose here? >> >> Jan >> >>> >>>> So I want to write a chapter on the concurrent programming in Pharo, but is question is: am I missing something? Because this looks quite trivial. >>>> >>>> Uko >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > >

Dec. 2, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] Responsible development

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

>> >> >> And, I just want to remind everyone that Pharo 3.0 is unreleased... Do not >> expect it to be stable, > > Itâs not about stability of pharo 3, it about concurrency. And itâs the same problem in 1.2, 1.3, 1.4, 2.0. I can write ruby code while running tests, but I cannot do that in Pharo. Of course you can do that in Pharo. AutoTest was a trial to do that. Now for example you can load code in a background process now if you modify objects that may be impacted by changes then you can get in trouble. In ruby do you run them in a patched kernel version or in the same environment? I would like to have isolated memory and several kernels running side by side but this is not something that we can achieve in a couple of days. > This thread doesnât seem to have any reason, so I should just apologise for creating it because of frustration and ask everyone to stop discussing this :) Yury you should be more precise in your point > >> although it is remarkably so for the amount of deep >> changes that have been made. Maybe that has lulled us into a false sense of >> security/expectation. Remember, caveat emptor until it is released, when >> there obviously shouldn't be any changes which might introduce this kind of >> bug. >> >> >> >> ----- >> Cheers, >> Sean >> -- >> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Responsible-development-tp4726686p4726749.html >> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >> > >

Dec. 2, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] Responsible development

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

First, if you break your tools and do a loop in traditional world then you live with it. Second, if you see what guillermo is doing: running multiple core side by side (this is a first step because there is no supervisor and we are in shared memory) but this could be a solution. Third " I was doing something in in Nautilus, and it started rising errors, which is ok (well, itâs not ok, but this happens during so rapid development). But then I clicked on something in Nautilus and ended up in the infinite loop. Shouldnât we develop our tools in a more friendly way? When my finder freezes I donât have to restart OS X, but when Nautilus freezes I have to restart Pharo." such kind of reports are useless. I do not count the number of time my mac application crash on me including the finder. I would not say that pharo is less stable that Mac OS from my perspective. Especially when I see the knid of changes we are doing. Fourth we are in alpha and nautilus was massively changed. I expect a lot more bugs, because such browser is complex. Stef >>> Yes, This is a nice idea, but I was telling about the other thing. Itâs really simple to start a new process in Pharo. Maybe we should introduce common practices in pharo? When I was following Obj-C course, one of the fundamental thing that was taught: do time consuming tasks in the other process. >> >> >> forking processes is not a solution. because you can have shared resources problems and updates and â¦. > > Yes, you risk races which could be tricky to find/debug. > > I'm **very** interested what's the solution you propose here? > > Jan > >> >>> So I want to write a chapter on the concurrent programming in Pharo, but is question is: am I missing something? Because this looks quite trivial. >>> >>> Uko >>> >> >> >> > >

Dec. 2, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] Responsible development

by Yuriy Tymchuk

On 02 Dec 2013, at 16:24, Sean P. DeNigris <sean(a)clipperadams.com> wrote: > Uko2 wrote >> Shouldnât we develop our tools in a more friendly way? > > That would be fantastic. This thread is very interesting! > > And, I just want to remind everyone that Pharo 3.0 is unreleased... Do not > expect it to be stable, Itâs not about stability of pharo 3, it about concurrency. And itâs the same problem in 1.2, 1.3, 1.4, 2.0. I can write ruby code while running tests, but I cannot do that in Pharo. This thread doesnât seem to have any reason, so I should just apologise for creating it because of frustration and ask everyone to stop discussing this :) > although it is remarkably so for the amount of deep > changes that have been made. Maybe that has lulled us into a false sense of > security/expectation. Remember, caveat emptor until it is released, when > there obviously shouldn't be any changes which might introduce this kind of > bug. > > > > ----- > Cheers, > Sean > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Responsible-development-tp4726686p4726749.html > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >

Dec. 2, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] Responsible development

by Sean P. DeNigris

Uko2 wrote > Shouldnât we develop our tools in a more friendly way? That would be fantastic. This thread is very interesting! And, I just want to remind everyone that Pharo 3.0 is unreleased... Do not expect it to be stable, although it is remarkably so for the amount of deep changes that have been made. Maybe that has lulled us into a false sense of security/expectation. Remember, caveat emptor until it is released, when there obviously shouldn't be any changes which might introduce this kind of bug. ----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Responsible-development-tp4726686p4726749.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Dec. 2, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] Responsible development

by Jan Vrany

On 02/12/13 14:32, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > >> Yes, This is a nice idea, but I was telling about the other thing. Itâs really simple to start a new process in Pharo. Maybe we should introduce common practices in pharo? When I was following Obj-C course, one of the fundamental thing that was taught: do time consuming tasks in the other process. > > > forking processes is not a solution. because you can have shared resources problems and updates and â¦. Yes, you risk races which could be tricky to find/debug. I'm **very** interested what's the solution you propose here? Jan > >> So I want to write a chapter on the concurrent programming in Pharo, but is question is: am I missing something? Because this looks quite trivial. >> >> Uko >> > > >

Dec. 2, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] Solaris VM ?

by phil＠highoctane.be

Solaris is far from dead. http://www.perkin.org.uk/posts/goodbye-oracle-hello-joyent.html http://smartos.org/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joyent I wouldn't call that living in the past if you ask me. Phil --- Philippe Back Dramatic Performance Improvements Mob: +32(0) 478 650 140 | Fax: +32 (0) 70 408 027 Mail:phil@highoctane.be | Web: http://philippeback.eu Blog: http://philippeback.be | Twitter: @philippeback Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/philippeback/videos High Octane SPRL rue cour Boisacq 101 | 1301 Bierges | Belgium Pharo Consortium Member - http://consortium.pharo.org/ Featured on the Software Process and Measurement Cast - http://spamcast.libsyn.com Sparx Systems Enterprise Architect and Ability Engineering EADocX Value Added Reseller On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 3:42 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr>wrote: > > > Yes it is possible, but they prefer to have all their systems on Solaris. > > > and live in the past (kind of 20 years back why not after all derrick and > gameboy was not that bad). Indeed this is a choice. > > Stef > > > Jannik > > > 2013/12/2 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> > >> Jannik >> >> I do not understand. The people do not have a windows machine? >> Because I can understand thta you are solaris around but having a simple >> windows machine looks like a simple >> requirement. >> >> Stef >> >> On Dec 2, 2013, at 3:12 PM, jannik laval <jannik.laval(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> After a while, I have the information. This is a x86 (this is not for me). >> I will try to install a Solaris VM, and install a Pharo on top. >> >> Jannik >> >> >> 2013/11/27 Andreas Wacknitz <a.wacknitz(a)gmx.de> >> >>> Hi Jannik, >>> >>> some time ago I was able to compile the old Squeak VM on Solaris (SPARC >>> and x86). >>> I havenât tried it for a long time, especially not with Cog or StackVM. >>> Which version of Solaris are you using? >>> >>> Best regards, >>> Andreas >>> >>> Am 25.11.2013 um 22:50 schrieb jannik.laval <jannik.laval(a)gmail.com>: >>> >>> > Hi guys, >>> > >>> > Does anyone know if Pharo can work on a Solaris System ? >>> > >>> > Cheers, >>> > Jannik >>> > >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> >> ~~Jannik Laval~~ >> Ãcole des Mines de Douai >> Enseignant-chercheur >> http://www.jannik-laval.eu >> http://car.mines-douai.fr/ >> >> >> > > > -- > > ~~Jannik Laval~~ > Ãcole des Mines de Douai > Enseignant-chercheur > http://www.jannik-laval.eu > http://car.mines-douai.fr/ > > >

Dec. 2, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] Responsible development

by phil＠highoctane.be

As Clement explained to be, the Cmd + . combo is only tested on VM bytecode "backjumps". So, if the bytecode is stuck with no backjumps, it is definitely stuck. I'd like to see where this occurs in the VM (maybe in the hope I could have a slow, but interruptible VM at all times) - this could take the form of a setting that gets turned on. Phil On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Esteban A. Maringolo <emaringolo(a)gmail.com>wrote: > 2013/12/2 Pavel Krivanek <pavel.krivanek(a)gmail.com>: > > User interrupt (cmd + .) was not working? > > Most of the times for simple things it does, but sometimes it doesn't. > > Regards, > > Esteban A. Maringolo > >

Dec. 2, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] Solaris VM ?

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

> Yes it is possible, but they prefer to have all their systems on Solaris. and live in the past (kind of 20 years back why not after all derrick and gameboy was not that bad). Indeed this is a choice. Stef > > Jannik > > > 2013/12/2 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> > Jannik > > I do not understand. The people do not have a windows machine? > Because I can understand thta you are solaris around but having a simple windows machine looks like a simple > requirement. > > Stef > > On Dec 2, 2013, at 3:12 PM, jannik laval <jannik.laval(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> After a while, I have the information. This is a x86 (this is not for me). >> I will try to install a Solaris VM, and install a Pharo on top. >> >> Jannik >> >> >> 2013/11/27 Andreas Wacknitz <a.wacknitz(a)gmx.de> >> Hi Jannik, >> >> some time ago I was able to compile the old Squeak VM on Solaris (SPARC and x86). >> I havenât tried it for a long time, especially not with Cog or StackVM. >> Which version of Solaris are you using? >> >> Best regards, >> Andreas >> >> Am 25.11.2013 um 22:50 schrieb jannik.laval <jannik.laval(a)gmail.com>: >> >> > Hi guys, >> > >> > Does anyone know if Pharo can work on a Solaris System ? >> > >> > Cheers, >> > Jannik >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> ~~Jannik Laval~~ >> Ãcole des Mines de Douai >> Enseignant-chercheur >> http://www.jannik-laval.eu >> http://car.mines-douai.fr/ >> > > > > > -- > ~~Jannik Laval~~ > Ãcole des Mines de Douai > Enseignant-chercheur > http://www.jannik-laval.eu > http://car.mines-douai.fr/ >

Dec. 2, 2013