November 2013 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] The Second Coming of Java article

by phil＠highoctane.be

Speaking of which, I'd love to have a go at targeting Emscripten https://github.com/kripken/emscripten/wiki We can do this by using llvm-gcc producing bitcode. It may not be too hard to compile things, of course, the next challenge is with all the display and I/O. But if they can do Unreal3, MESS emulators, and Commodore Emulators, we should be able to do a PharoVM. Phil On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 8:18 PM, Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com>wrote: > Actually, do I want to have Pharo running on Java? My answer was âyesâ a > couple of years before. Today, I want to have Pharo (or at least most of > it) running in a web browser. > > Distributing applications to clients is then so easy... > > Alexandre > -- > _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: > Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu > ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. > > > > On Nov 24, 2013, at 6:19 PM, askoh <askoh(a)askoh.com> wrote: > > > http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2013/09/the-second-coming-of-java/ > > > > The article talks about Java Virtual Machine running dynamic languages > like > > Scala and Clojure in addition to Java. What prevents the Smalltalk > Virtual > > Machine from running Java, Scala, Clojure and other JVM languages? Is > that > > something we can ride on to greater awareness and usage of Smalltalk > Virtual > > Machine and Smalltalk? > > > > All the best, > > Aik-Siong Koh > > > > > > > > -- > > View this message in context: > http://forum.world.st/The-Second-Coming-of-Java-article-tp4724932.html > > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at > Nabble.com. > > > > >

Nov. 25, 2013

Solaris VM ?

by jannik.laval

Hi guys, Does anyone know if Pharo can work on a Solaris System ? Cheers, Jannik

Nov. 25, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] VM with fragmented memory

by Alexandre Bergel

Thanks for all your explanation. There are useful! Alexandre -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. On Nov 25, 2013, at 6:20 PM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On 25 November 2013 19:01, Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com> wrote: > > If I add, letâs say, 30 000 000 elements into c. After the addition the array will be very very big. Which means that it may be in a different segment memory than the one that contains âcâ. Do you feel this may be a problem? I am thinking about a long jump between c and array. Long jumps cost more than short jumps right? > > > > I don't think it'll be an issue because statistically it'll affect a minority of collections. No, its not necessarily the case that there may be a higher cost. This depends on how the processor's memory hierarchy works. Further, performance may be more affected by how clustered the elements of the collection are than the collection itself. > > Ah okay. > What do you mean by how the elements are clustered? > > > Do you feel there are some suboptimal situation with this situation? > > > > I think it's way too early to worry about this kind of thing. The system needs to work and be tuned. There's plenty of time to address clustering, etc. > > I am not sure to understand what clustering means here. > > > Basically it means how close an elements of collection in memory - the closer, the better. > Of course it only will have effect if you using collection for iterating over it (like do: etc).. > But if you using it for random access, there's not much CPU & hardware can do > in order to optimize access to it, especially when speaking about very large collections with millions of entries. > > Thanks again for taking the time to answer questions. > > Alexandre > > > > > > > > Alexandre > > > > NB: I cc the mailing list to see whether other may help in understand better whatâs going on with segment and generations > > -- > > _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: > > Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu > > ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. > > > > > > > > On Nov 19, 2013, at 1:37 PM, Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Hi Alexandre, > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 7:40 AM, Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com> wrote: > > > Hi Eliot, > > > > > > Stef told me you are working hard on improving the Pharo VM. > > > In particular making the VM support fragmented memory. If I understand correctly, this will relieve the VM from having a continuous block of memory to hold the whole image. Really cool! > > > > > > A better term is segmented memory. fragmentation in memory management means free space getting divided into too small pieces to be useful. > > > > > > I have a general question regarding VM. Are you aware of other Virtual machines supporting this? Does the Java VM support fragmented memory? .Net? V8? > > > > > > Any VM that uses the train algorithm supports segmented memory. Any VM that uses "pools" or "regions" uses segmented memory. VisualWorks' VM supports segments. I'm pretty sure that V8 .Net & HotSpot provide segmented memory. > > > > > > > > > I would like to mention this in a research paper I am working on. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Alexandre > > > -- > > > _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: > > > Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu > > > ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > best, > > > Eliot > > > > > > > > > > -- > > best, > > Eliot > > > > > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko.

Nov. 25, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] The Second Coming of Java article

by Jan Vrany

On 25/11/13 20:12, kilon alios wrote: > I don't see a problem. Sockets provide a way to communicate, sockets > nowadays are used almost everywhere. They have their limitations but its > a viable , very fast and simple solution. OK, let's make an experiment and we'll see :-) Here's the code that parses XML using Xerces on VM that runs both Smalltalk and Java: ======================= factory := JAVA javax xml parsers SAXParserFactory newInstance. parser := factory newSAXParser getXMLReader. parser setContentHandler: JavaExamples::CDDatabaseHandler2 new. [ parser parse: build_xml. ] on: JAVA java io IOException do:[:ioe| Transcript showCR: 'I/O error: ', ioe getMessage. ioe printStackTrace ] on: UserNotification do:[:un| Transcript showCR: un messageText. un proceed. ] ======================= The handler: https://bitbucket.org/janvrany/stx-libjava/src/e5fc3aaad7a2a9f06ba1f28e2144… Now, you implement solution using sockets or any other kind of RPC. Then lets write a benchmark and check what's simpler and what's faster. I would be very interested in results. Anyway, we're getting bit offtopic I guess. If you want to do proposed experiment, drop me a private message (unless the list shows interest :-) Best, Jan P.S.: If you like the challenge, then consider small modification of the code above **without** `un proceed` at the end of handler of UserNotification.

Nov. 25, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] Understanding Roassal

by Alexandre Bergel

Hi! > So I took your advice and gave a good look to Roassal to learn more about how to use Athens. First I want to congratulate the coders, I was expecting a simple visualisation library for object graphs and what I see is a full blown graphics library that can be used for many diffirent kinds of graphical illustrations. Thanks for your nice words :-) > I still however trying to understand the end goal of Roassal , is there an end goal or is it generally code visualisation ? The goal of Roassal is getting broader with the time. The main objective of Roassal is to be a platform for data visualisation. So, as soon as you have a bunch of data (e.g., plenty of numbers or any arbitrary objects), then Roassal should give you the tools to visualize and interact with your data. Roassal is slowly moving from a tool for end-user to a platform on which domain specific languages can be created. This is an important point when reusing visualizations (e.g., ROTreeMapBuilder, ROMapBuilder, ROMondrianViewBuilder are all compelling examples). Roassal is currently being ported to Amber, which will probably broaden the vision behind Roassal. Early examples may be found on: http://pestefo.github.io/roamber/# > Also I wanted to ask if Roassal can do visual coding. By that I mean visualize not only objects but messages inside methods so the users with drag and drop code in a visual way. Yes, Roassal is made for that. If there is something that Roassal does not allow you to do, then let us know, we are a whole team ready to polish Roassal. > I took a look at the examples but I see nowhere the use of bezier curves , why is that ? There is a few. Try: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= "Source code: ROMondrianExample>>bezierCurveOn:" "Preambule. It includes the initialization. " | view rawView | rawView := ROView new. view := ROMondrianViewBuilder view: rawView. "-------------" "-------------" view shape circle size: 10. view nodes: (Collection withAllSubclasses). view shape bezierLine. view edgesFrom: #superclass. view radialTreeLayout. view center. "-------------" "-------------" "Below is the initiation of the menu and opening the visualization" ROEaselMorphic new populateMenuOn: view. view open -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Have a look at the class ROSplineExample It does not contains many examples, but you get enough to build appealing visualization (e.g., https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.511442275609041.1073741827.340543… ) More screenshots are available on: https://www.facebook.com/ObjectProfile Cheers, Alexandre

Nov. 25, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] VM with fragmented memory

by Igor Stasenko

On 25 November 2013 19:01, Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com> wrote: > > If I add, letâs say, 30 000 000 elements into c. After the addition the > array will be very very big. Which means that it may be in a different > segment memory than the one that contains âcâ. Do you feel this may be a > problem? I am thinking about a long jump between c and array. Long jumps > cost more than short jumps right? > > > > I don't think it'll be an issue because statistically it'll affect a > minority of collections. No, its not necessarily the case that there may > be a higher cost. This depends on how the processor's memory hierarchy > works. Further, performance may be more affected by how clustered the > elements of the collection are than the collection itself. > > Ah okay. > What do you mean by how the elements are clustered? > > > Do you feel there are some suboptimal situation with this situation? > > > > I think it's way too early to worry about this kind of thing. The > system needs to work and be tuned. There's plenty of time to address > clustering, etc. > > I am not sure to understand what clustering means here. > > Basically it means how close an elements of collection in memory - the closer, the better. Of course it only will have effect if you using collection for iterating over it (like do: etc).. But if you using it for random access, there's not much CPU & hardware can do in order to optimize access to it, especially when speaking about very large collections with millions of entries. > Thanks again for taking the time to answer questions. > > Alexandre > > > > > > > > Alexandre > > > > NB: I cc the mailing list to see whether other may help in understand > better whatâs going on with segment and generations > > -- > > _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: > > Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu > > ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. > > > > > > > > On Nov 19, 2013, at 1:37 PM, Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > > Hi Alexandre, > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 7:40 AM, Alexandre Bergel < > alexandre.bergel(a)me.com> wrote: > > > Hi Eliot, > > > > > > Stef told me you are working hard on improving the Pharo VM. > > > In particular making the VM support fragmented memory. If I understand > correctly, this will relieve the VM from having a continuous block of > memory to hold the whole image. Really cool! > > > > > > A better term is segmented memory. fragmentation in memory management > means free space getting divided into too small pieces to be useful. > > > > > > I have a general question regarding VM. Are you aware of other Virtual > machines supporting this? Does the Java VM support fragmented memory? .Net? > V8? > > > > > > Any VM that uses the train algorithm supports segmented memory. Any > VM that uses "pools" or "regions" uses segmented memory. VisualWorks' VM > supports segments. I'm pretty sure that V8 .Net & HotSpot provide > segmented memory. > > > > > > > > > I would like to mention this in a research paper I am working on. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Alexandre > > > -- > > > _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: > > > Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu > > > ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > best, > > > Eliot > > > > > > > > > > -- > > best, > > Eliot > > > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

Nov. 25, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] VM with fragmented memory

by ClÃ©ment Bera

Eliot do you think we could earn performance on Cog just by editing its settings ? I mean for example the settings: - number of PICs maximum case - JIT cache size - ... If we had something (like a job on a build server) that would try all the values in a range possible for each setting, I mean for each setting, compile the VM, run Richards/DeltaBlue, and store the result, would we be able to earn performance by looking for the best result ? I read once in a java VM they earned 15% performance by doing something similar. I don't know if you did something like that before the Cog VM release. 2013/11/25 Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com> > > If I add, letâs say, 30 000 000 elements into c. After the addition the > array will be very very big. Which means that it may be in a different > segment memory than the one that contains âcâ. Do you feel this may be a > problem? I am thinking about a long jump between c and array. Long jumps > cost more than short jumps right? > > > > I don't think it'll be an issue because statistically it'll affect a > minority of collections. No, its not necessarily the case that there may > be a higher cost. This depends on how the processor's memory hierarchy > works. Further, performance may be more affected by how clustered the > elements of the collection are than the collection itself. > > Ah okay. > What do you mean by how the elements are clustered? > > > Do you feel there are some suboptimal situation with this situation? > > > > I think it's way too early to worry about this kind of thing. The > system needs to work and be tuned. There's plenty of time to address > clustering, etc. > > I am not sure to understand what clustering means here. > > Thanks again for taking the time to answer questions. > > Alexandre > > > > > > > > Alexandre > > > > NB: I cc the mailing list to see whether other may help in understand > better whatâs going on with segment and generations > > -- > > _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: > > Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu > > ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. > > > > > > > > On Nov 19, 2013, at 1:37 PM, Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > > Hi Alexandre, > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 7:40 AM, Alexandre Bergel < > alexandre.bergel(a)me.com> wrote: > > > Hi Eliot, > > > > > > Stef told me you are working hard on improving the Pharo VM. > > > In particular making the VM support fragmented memory. If I understand > correctly, this will relieve the VM from having a continuous block of > memory to hold the whole image. Really cool! > > > > > > A better term is segmented memory. fragmentation in memory management > means free space getting divided into too small pieces to be useful. > > > > > > I have a general question regarding VM. Are you aware of other Virtual > machines supporting this? Does the Java VM support fragmented memory? .Net? > V8? > > > > > > Any VM that uses the train algorithm supports segmented memory. Any > VM that uses "pools" or "regions" uses segmented memory. VisualWorks' VM > supports segments. I'm pretty sure that V8 .Net & HotSpot provide > segmented memory. > > > > > > > > > I would like to mention this in a research paper I am working on. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Alexandre > > > -- > > > _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: > > > Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu > > > ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > best, > > > Eliot > > > > > > > > > > -- > > best, > > Eliot > > >

Nov. 25, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] The Second Coming of Java article

by Marcus Denker

> > But the problem is that the *semantics* are still that of Smalltalk, and itâs completely not clear for the programmer where the similarity ends. > > If you want to have âI can type in examples from my ruby bookâ compatibility, you need to implement the real semantics, which in many cases > means to re-implement the VM of that other language (in a very slow version) on top of your VM which does not really have the properties to > support those semantics. > Just imagine things like that... https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/wat :-) Marcus

Nov. 25, 2013

REPL (was: about miniimage)

by David T. Lewis

> > Tangentially can anyone point me to a headless image with a REPL for use > in testing Spur? > Hi Eliot, This is probably much too heavyweight for what you have in mind, but if you are able to load OSProcess and CommandShell into the test image, you can then evaluate "ExternalCommandShell start", and talk to the image on stdin/stdout from your terminal session. You'll need to start the image in the foreground (no "&") so that you are connected to it from your terminal. The command evaluator accepts simple Smalltalk expressions and various unix-ish inputs. Dave

Nov. 25, 2013

Understanding Roassal

by kilon alios

So I took your advice and gave a good look to Roassal to learn more about how to use Athens. First I want to congratulate the coders, I was expecting a simple visualisation library for object graphs and what I see is a full blown graphics library that can be used for many diffirent kinds of graphical illustrations. I still however trying to understand the end goal of Roassal , is there an end goal or is it generally code visualisation ? Also I wanted to ask if Roassal can do visual coding. By that I mean visualize not only objects but messages inside methods so the users with drag and drop code in a visual way. I took a look at the examples but I see nowhere the use of bezier curves , why is that ?

Nov. 25, 2013