November 2013 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] The Second Coming of Java article

by Esteban A. Maringolo

Hi, I'm coming late to this. I don't fully share the vision of Java as a language having a renaissance, I think it is a mature language, strict by definition, but solid executionwise. So yes, it's a pain the a** to develop with it, particularly having programmed with Smalltalk during a decade. In the server side, you can do decent stuff with almost any language. The difference comes more from tooling and instrumentation (integration with servers, monitoring, etc.). And that comes with Time and Money as Elliot pointed. I can talk about what you can do with Java in Android, and it's pretty impressive. Android took both Java and Linux and shipped it to the masses (end users) as no java applet nor Linux distro ever did. However the use I see in having a Smalltalk running on top of a JVM is that because there are many chances that JVM will run in the "internet of things", sensors, appliances and other devices that will come with only one "platform" shipped from the vendor, and it will be either an open "HTTP based API", or a full fledged native SDK for the system running on top of the JVM. To use Smalltalk in JavaScript Amber is doing a great work, and having Pharo running in a Browser by means of emscripten or similar sounds more like an interesting proof of concept rather than a true advantage. Lively Kernel comes to my mind. So I'm more interested in having Smalltalk (or Pharo) in the forthcoming "internet of things" platform, that will be between us sooner than later. And because of many things (Hi Oracle lobbist!) I think it will run on top of the JVM. Regards! Esteban A. Maringolo 2013/11/24 askoh <askoh(a)askoh.com>: > http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2013/09/the-second-coming-of-java/ > > The article talks about Java Virtual Machine running dynamic languages like > Scala and Clojure in addition to Java. What prevents the Smalltalk Virtual > Machine from running Java, Scala, Clojure and other JVM languages? Is that > something we can ride on to greater awareness and usage of Smalltalk Virtual > Machine and Smalltalk? > > All the best, > Aik-Siong Koh > > > > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Second-Coming-of-Java-article-tp4724932.html > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >

Nov. 26, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] The Second Coming of Java article

by askoh

Bravo Jan and your collaborators. You have done it. Anything preventing STX:LIBJAVA from being used in production environments? Anything preventing Pharo and VisualWorks for using the technology also? Any plans to do the same for C# DotNET? All the best, Aik-Siong Koh -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Second-Coming-of-Java-article-tp4724932p4725246.h… Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Nov. 26, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] Better layout definition in new Nautilus Browser with filter dialog

by Juraj Kubelka

Hi Benjamin, I am just curious if you had a time to look at the layout? If you have an idea, let me know and I will try to fix it. Thanks, Jura El 24-11-2013, a las 17:47, Benjamin <Benjamin.VanRyseghem.Pharo(a)gmail.com> escribiÃ³: > I will do that tomorrow :P > > Do not hesitate to bump me if you forget :) > > Ben > > On 24 Nov 2013, at 21:38, Juraj Kubelka <juraj.kubelka(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hi >> >> I do not know how to do the better layout of input package filter which was integrated to latest Pharo 3.0 image. >> >> It is defined in method PackageTreeNautilusUI>>buildFirstColumn: (it means package column) >> And code looks like: >> >> ^ PanelMorph new >> changeProportionalLayout; >> addMorph: self buildPackageSearch â <ââ this is new filter input dialog" >> fullFrame: ((0@0 corner: 1(a)0.1)) â and his layout definition" >> addMorph: self buildList â <ââ this is package listâ >> fullFrame: ((0(a)0.1 corner: 1@1) asLayoutFrame bottomOffset: -25); â and his layout definition" >> addMorph: buttons â <ââ Hierarchy button" >> fullFrame: ((0@1 corner: 1@1) asLayoutFrame topOffset: -25); â and his layout" >> hResizing: #spaceFill; >> vResizing: #spaceFill; >> yourself. >> >> >> So, now filter dialog and package list are flexible and change their height according to window size. >> I have tried to define input dialog of fixed size (according to font size), but I do not know how. >> Any suggestion? >> >> Thanks, >> Jura >

Nov. 26, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] about miniimage

by Eliot Miranda

Hi Guillermo, Hi Stef, On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 2:33 PM, Guillermo Polito <guillermopolito(a)gmail.com > wrote: > > > > On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 5:09 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse < > stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > >> >>> From the practical point of view, it's always faster to remove. >>> something than to load something. And it's much faster to unload it without >>> Monticello. So I would use ugly removeAllButPackages: because it's fast, >>> then fix the problems like obsolete classes an Undeclared, continue with >>> the pretty unloding part of the configuration and finally loading part will >>> be easy. >>> >> >> Tangentially can anyone point me to a headless image with a REPL for use >> in testing Spur? >> >> >> Guillermo has several bootstrapped and minimal images. >> I tried to find them but I could not >> https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-contribution/job/Bootstrap/ >> >> Guillermo? Is now on holidays. >> > > Yes, but coding when not seeing family :) > > https://ci.inria.fr/rmod/view/Oz/ > > Right now I kind of broke everything... But what we have are mini images > that just have an entry point method and quits. No repl cause they don't > have even a compiler. > As soon as you have something with a REPL in it I'd be interested. Please let me know. Thanks and thanks for looking around Stef. > > >> I will look around. >> Stef >> > > -- best, Eliot

Nov. 26, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] Understanding Roassal

by kilon alios

Yes I am interested in Amber Roassal and also Roassal3d. Mostly on Amber Roassal because I want to target tablets and phones and since I have no desire to go through the App stores, javascript is my best option. Another thing I have observed is that in all examples there is no anti-aliasing which I find very weird because my vector editor which uses Athens as well, has anti-aliased lines. Why is that ? I am very excited about Roassal , the more I look at the code and the documentation the more I realize how flexible it is. Is Roassal3d part of the Roassal project or is it an outside project ? Also do you plan integrating with Spec ? Will Roassal be a backend for Spec ? On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 11:46 PM, Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com>wrote: > Hi! > > > So I took your advice and gave a good look to Roassal to learn more > about how to use Athens. First I want to congratulate the coders, I was > expecting a simple visualisation library for object graphs and what I see > is a full blown graphics library that can be used for many diffirent kinds > of graphical illustrations. > > Thanks for your nice words :-) > > > I still however trying to understand the end goal of Roassal , is there > an end goal or is it generally code visualisation ? > > The goal of Roassal is getting broader with the time. The main objective > of Roassal is to be a platform for data visualisation. So, as soon as you > have a bunch of data (e.g., plenty of numbers or any arbitrary objects), > then Roassal should give you the tools to visualize and interact with your > data. > > Roassal is slowly moving from a tool for end-user to a platform on which > domain specific languages can be created. This is an important point when > reusing visualizations (e.g., ROTreeMapBuilder, ROMapBuilder, > ROMondrianViewBuilder are all compelling examples). > > Roassal is currently being ported to Amber, which will probably broaden > the vision behind Roassal. Early examples may be found on: > http://pestefo.github.io/roamber/# > > > > Also I wanted to ask if Roassal can do visual coding. By that I mean > visualize not only objects but messages inside methods so the users with > drag and drop code in a visual way. > > Yes, Roassal is made for that. If there is something that Roassal does not > allow you to do, then let us know, we are a whole team ready to polish > Roassal. > > > I took a look at the examples but I see nowhere the use of bezier curves > , why is that ? > > There is a few. > > Try: > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > "Source code: ROMondrianExample>>bezierCurveOn:" > "Preambule. It includes the initialization. " > | view rawView | > rawView := ROView new. > view := ROMondrianViewBuilder view: rawView. > "-------------" > "-------------" > > view shape circle size: 10. > view nodes: (Collection withAllSubclasses). > view shape bezierLine. > view edgesFrom: #superclass. > view radialTreeLayout. > view center. > > "-------------" > "-------------" > "Below is the initiation of the menu and opening the visualization" > ROEaselMorphic new populateMenuOn: view. > view open > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > > Have a look at the class ROSplineExample > It does not contains many examples, but you get enough to build appealing > visualization (e.g., > https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.511442275609041.1073741827.340543… ) > > More screenshots are available on: https://www.facebook.com/ObjectProfile > > Cheers, > Alexandre > > >

Nov. 26, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] The Second Coming of Java article

by kilon alios

I have actually used PyPy , the socket bridge I had created was to make PyPy communicate with cpython embeded in the open source 3d application Blender and vice versa. I wanted to use PyPy to speed up blender cpython. Very friendly community too. AFAIK they had a Smalltalk implementation on top of PyPy but I dont think its maintained anymore. On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 10:27 PM, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr>wrote: > > On 25 Nov 2013, at 21:13, kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > I don't see a problem. Sockets provide a way to communicate, sockets > nowadays are used almost everywhere. They have their limitations but its a > viable , very fast and simple solution. > > Also you can use Redline Smalltalk -> http://www.redline.st/ if you want > to run smalltalk on JVM. > > I vaguely remember that Squeak had the Ometa project that was working as a > converter between languages , I think Java was supported. > > Keep in mind that supporting syntax is one thing, semantics is the otherâ¦ > Ometa is just a (very nice) tool for making implementing a parser for > syntax easier, very much like PetitParser. > I once did a very, very naive demo of adding other *syntax* to Squeakâ¦ > > http://www.slideshare.net/MarcusDenker/a-programming-language-babel > > But the problem is that the *semantics* are still that of Smalltalk, and > itâs completely not clear for the programmer where the similarity ends. > > If you want to have âI can type in examples from my ruby bookâ > compatibility, you need to implement the real semantics, which in many cases > means to re-implement the VM of that other language (in a very slow > version) on top of your VM which does not really have the properties to > support those semantics. > > There has been more research recently about multi-language VMsâ¦ or > frameworks to build VMs (PyPy, for example). Without this support, getting > 100% correct > semantic *and* be fast enough (not even fast) is very hard. > > Marcus > >

Nov. 26, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] The Second Coming of Java article

by kilon alios

I am not familiar with the libraries you referring to nor I have messed with XML (thank god). I dont care which is faster I only care which is fast enough. I have never benchmarked my sockets but they always have been fast enough for my needs. I have found a benchmark here http://www.opendmx.net/index.php/Pipe_vs_Unix_Socket_Performance . 10 seconds for 512 MB does not sound bad to me at all. But then if you want much higher speeds for even bigger data, then sockets are not for you. The data I have played with is in the range of kbs. Though I fear that smalltalk will be the bottleneck way before sockets will be. Unless you using a C library via nativeboost or another FFI. On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 11:47 PM, Jan Vrany <jan.vrany(a)fit.cvut.cz> wrote: > On 25/11/13 20:12, kilon alios wrote: > >> I don't see a problem. Sockets provide a way to communicate, sockets >> nowadays are used almost everywhere. They have their limitations but its >> a viable , very fast and simple solution. >> > > OK, let's make an experiment and we'll see :-) > > Here's the code that parses XML using Xerces on VM that > runs both Smalltalk and Java: > > ======================= > factory := JAVA javax xml parsers SAXParserFactory newInstance. > parser := factory newSAXParser getXMLReader. > parser setContentHandler: JavaExamples::CDDatabaseHandler2 new. > [ > parser parse: build_xml. > ] on: JAVA java io IOException do:[:ioe| > Transcript showCR: 'I/O error: ', ioe getMessage. > ioe printStackTrace > ] on: UserNotification do:[:un| > Transcript showCR: un messageText. > un proceed. > ] > ======================= > > The handler: > > https://bitbucket.org/janvrany/stx-libjava/src/ > e5fc3aaad7a2a9f06ba1f28e2144eb0acfb1ec13/examples/ > CDDatabaseHandler2.st?at=development > > > Now, you implement solution using sockets or any other kind > of RPC. > > Then lets write a benchmark and check what's simpler and what's > faster. I would be very interested in results. > > Anyway, we're getting bit offtopic I guess. If you want to do proposed > experiment, drop me a private message (unless the list shows > interest :-) > > Best, Jan > > P.S.: If you like the challenge, then consider small modification > of the code above **without** `un proceed` at the end of handler > of UserNotification. > >

Nov. 26, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] Nautilus no longer guards against changed methods

by Chris Muller

On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 9:34 AM, Sean P. DeNigris <sean(a)clipperadams.com> wrote: > Stephan Eggermont wrote >> We need to revert to the modal behavior > > In general in UIs, he best approach is to do what the user requests without > hesitation, and make everything undoable. Ah, thanks for saying that. People need to be reminded. I think the tablet craze has lurched the world back into modal UI's being "ok".

Nov. 25, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] The Second Coming of Java article

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

Hi Jan, On 25 Nov 2013, at 22:47, Jan Vrany <jan.vrany(a)fit.cvut.cz> wrote: > Here's the code that parses XML using Xerces on VM that > runs both Smalltalk and Java: > > ======================= > factory := JAVA javax xml parsers SAXParserFactory newInstance. > parser := factory newSAXParser getXMLReader. > parser setContentHandler: JavaExamples::CDDatabaseHandler2 new. > [ > parser parse: build_xml. > ] on: JAVA java io IOException do:[:ioe| > Transcript showCR: 'I/O error: ', ioe getMessage. > ioe printStackTrace > ] on: UserNotification do:[:un| > Transcript showCR: un messageText. > un proceed. > ] > ======================= This is really nice and beautiful code. Very well done ! Sven

Nov. 25, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] about miniimage

by Guillermo Polito

On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 5:09 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr > wrote: > >> From the practical point of view, it's always faster to remove. something >> than to load something. And it's much faster to unload it without >> Monticello. So I would use ugly removeAllButPackages: because it's fast, >> then fix the problems like obsolete classes an Undeclared, continue with >> the pretty unloding part of the configuration and finally loading part will >> be easy. >> > > Tangentially can anyone point me to a headless image with a REPL for use > in testing Spur? > > > Guillermo has several bootstrapped and minimal images. > I tried to find them but I could not > https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-contribution/job/Bootstrap/ > > Guillermo? Is now on holidays. > Yes, but coding when not seeing family :) https://ci.inria.fr/rmod/view/Oz/ Right now I kind of broke everything... But what we have are mini images that just have an entry point method and quits. No repl cause they don't have even a compiler. > I will look around. > Stef >

Nov. 25, 2013