November 2013 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] No decompile string at all, bad idea?

by Mariano Martinez Peck

On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 4:57 AM, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr>wrote: > > On 06 Nov 2013, at 08:53, Max Leske <maxleske(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On 06.11.2013, at 08:05, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr> wrote: > > > >> > >> On 05 Nov 2013, at 20:37, Mariano Martinez Peck <marianopeck(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > >> > >>> Hi. From what I understand you removed the old Compiler but yet Opal > does not support compiling. Also, #sourceCode was changed etc... > >>> That means that there is no way to see the decompiled string of a > method? > >> > >> Yes. > >> > >>> Which means I cannot deploy and image without sources and then > browse/debug/inspect/write pharoDebug.log etc because we don't have even > the decompile string??? > >> > >> Exactly. But this is just temporary, .sources and .changes will go away > in Pharo4 and there will be just a .pharo4 image file. > > > > By âtemporaryâ do you mean decompilation will come back? > > > No, we will have a high-level representation of Methods that replace (from > the standpoint of reflection) the incomplete bytecode representation, > > OK. This is the key from my point of view. I have always seen methods like 2 things: 1) the runtime execution part of a method (you have bytecodes, you can evaluate it, etc etc) 2) the method as source code (which has the temps also and accepts all types of things regarding source code management). So I am all in of having that high-level representation of methods, however, I am not sure if I would like to loose a representation of methods that just means runtime/bytecodes. > >> > >>> Serializing compiled methods is not fun either since we cannot > decompile it after... > >>> > >> > >> You can embedd the source into the method before serialising. > > > > That means storing redundant information though (if the user is only > interested in functionality) and that will increase file size, and > serialization/materalzation time. So itâs not an ideal situation. > > The thing is that we can either not move or move step by step taking > (sometimes) into account that things are sub-optimal for a little while. > > You can envision the current implementation as a peak on a map: itâs a > very good local optimum. But *Much* better is possible. Maybne a local > metaphor: We are in the Gurten now, you can > not reach the Eiger without going down for a while. > > Marcus > -- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com

Nov. 6, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] Github and Pharo

by Goubier Thierry

Well, if you are on Pharo3, you can get it with the latest MonticelloFileTree-Git: Gofer new url:'http://smalltalkhub.com/mc/ThierryGoubier/Alt30/main'; package: 'MonticelloFileTree-Git'; load (or, on the command line, pharo Pharo.image eval --save \ Gofer new \ url:\'http://smalltalkhub.com/mc/ThierryGoubier/Alt30/main\'\;\ package: \'MonticelloFileTree-Git\'\;\ load ) With OSProcess installed of course. Now I want to make that push and pull aware of the state of the local repository compared to the remote; I'll update if I got the time. Rant: I have the feeling that wrapping completely Git is far, far too complex to be a reasonable target. Wrapping a subset of Git, maybe. I need something that work and we can improve later on. Working on a Windows solution would be a priority. Thierry Le 06/11/2013 12:08, kilon alios a Ã©crit : > well done mate, keep them coming :) > > When I first tried pharo I was afraid that I would deal with a lot of > abandon projects , half finished libraries, bugs that are decades old. > But I see so much active development and people who take Pharo very > seriously that has extended my stay. And even though I always had python > as my fall back plan , the reality of sticking with Pharo comes closer > every day the more I learn and the more projects I find. I really like > it here :) > > > On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 2:32 PM, Goubier Thierry <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr > <mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr>> wrote: > > > > Le 04/11/2013 23:19, kilon alios a Ã©crit : > > It does work indeed, commit wise. But can I git pull and git > push with it ? > > > Something like that? > > Thierry > > > On Mon, Nov 4, 2013 at 10:50 PM, GOUBIER Thierry > <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr <mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr> > <mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr > <mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr>__>> wrote: > > Alexandre, > > using Git with Pharo (2 and 3) works today on Mac and Linux > with > MonticelloFileTree and MonticelloFileTree-Git. > > FileSystem-Git will be a better way to do it (and more > portable) :) > > Thierry > > > ------------------------------__------------------------------__------------ > *De :* Pharo-dev [pharo-dev-bounces(a)lists.__pharo.org > <mailto:pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org> > <mailto:pharo-dev-bounces@__lists.pharo.org > <mailto:pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org>>] de la part de Alexandre > Bergel [alexandre.bergel(a)me.com > <mailto:alexandre.bergel@me.com> > <mailto:alexandre.bergel@me.__com <mailto:alexandre.bergel@me.com>>] > *Date d'envoi :* lundi 4 novembre 2013 21:34 > > *Ã :* Pharo Development List > *Cc:* Pharo Development List > > *Objet :* Re: [Pharo-dev] Github and Pharo > > > +1 > Everybody is waiting for using Git with Pharo. There is a real > possibility to impact 100s of users... > Go go go! > > Alexandre > > Alexandre > > Le 04-11-2013 Ã 15:35, kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com > <mailto:kilon.alios@gmail.com> > <mailto:kilon.alios@gmail.com > <mailto:kilon.alios@gmail.com>>__> a Ã©crit : > > Yeah I agree, this is an awesome project and thank you > for your > hard work :) > > > On Mon, Nov 4, 2013 at 8:12 PM, GOUBIER Thierry > <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr <mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr> > <mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr > <mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr>__>> wrote: > > Hi Max, > > I saw you were on it :) It's a huge effort you're > undertaking. > I learned a bit about git internal storage stepping > through > the code. > > Thierry > > __________________________________________ > De : Pharo-dev [pharo-dev-bounces(a)lists.__pharo.org > <mailto:pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org> > <mailto:pharo-dev-bounces@__lists.pharo.org > <mailto:pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org>>] de la part de Max > Leske [maxleske(a)gmail.com > <mailto:maxleske@gmail.com> <mailto:maxleske@gmail.com > <mailto:maxleske@gmail.com>>] > > Date d'envoi : lundi 4 novembre 2013 17:44 > Ã : Pharo Development List > Objet : Re: [Pharo-dev] Github and Pharo > > FileSystem-Git is basically in alpha at the momentâ¦ Iâm > rewriting it. > > > On 04.11.2013, at 17:04, Goubier Thierry > <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr > <mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr> > <mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr > <mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr>__>> wrote: > > > Ok, I tried a bit with FileSystem-Git, but it > seems there is > still a bit of work to do... > > > > I tried on one of my work repository, and: > > - it failed trying to uft8convert a packed data file. > > So I corrected the error (get the stream as > binary!) and > > - It failed looking for one of the commit IDs > > I found the ref in a pack file; apparently, it's > not looking > in there... > > I'm forcing a read of the pack files in there > > - Yet another utf8convert error on binary data > > Corrected, I got the pack files, but the index > isn't telling > me much. > > I tried to list the objects in it... Unknown > compression > method error. > > > > There's a huge amount of code in there, it's a bit > frightening. I think I'll stay with OSProcess a bit > longer ;) > > > > Thierry > > > > Le 04/11/2013 14:28, Goubier Thierry a Ã©crit : > >> > >> > >> Le 04/11/2013 14:09, David T. Lewis a Ã©crit : > >>> On Mon, Nov 04, 2013 at 01:58:29PM +0100, > Goubier Thierry > wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Le 04/11/2013 12:11, kilon alios a ?crit : > >>>>> yeap filetree did the trick here. However it > does not > allow to browse > >>>>> through the git commits as gitfiletree does, > the only > commit available > >>>>> is the last commit. > >>>>> > >>>>> I took a look at CommandShell and friends and > they all > look pretty much > >>>>> very broken. For example in workspace I executed > >>>>> [ CommandShellTranscript open.] and trying > "ls" or "dir" > it creates an > >>>>> error because it add C path inside pharo > subdirectories. > Dont know if > >>>>> this is normal behavior. > >>> > >>> Use "CommandShell open" rather than > "CommandShellTranscript open". > >>> > >>> > >>>> > >>>> I hope someone with more knowledge than me of > OSProcess > under windows > >>>> will have a look :) > >>>> > >>> OSProcess support for Windows is incomplete, so > this will > probably not > >>> do what you need. If the OSProcess is included > in the > Windows VM, it will > >>> let you run a Windows program, but it will not > do most of > the other > >>> things > >>> that you expect from OSProcess. > >>> > >>> Check > http://www.squeaksource.com/__ProcessWrapper.html > <http://www.squeaksource.com/ProcessWrapper.html> for > a possible > >>> alternative. > >> > >> Thanks Dave; no easy solution on that, it seems. > I'll have > a look then > >> with FileSystem-Git, this one may be a more > portable solution. > >> > >> Windows is still a world apart from the rest :( > >> > >> Thierry > > > > -- > > Thierry Goubier > > CEA list > > Laboratoire des Fondations des SystÃ¨mes Temps > RÃ©el EmbarquÃ©s > > 91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex > > France > > Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95 > > > > > > > > > -- > Thierry Goubier > CEA list > Laboratoire des Fondations des SystÃ¨mes Temps RÃ©el EmbarquÃ©s > 91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex > France > Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95 > > -- Thierry Goubier CEA list Laboratoire des Fondations des SystÃ¨mes Temps RÃ©el EmbarquÃ©s 91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex France Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95

Nov. 6, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] Nautilus groups in 3.0

by Benjamin

I personally do not like this feature, but I have been told to get it a try :) Ben On 06 Nov 2013, at 12:51, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 8:46 AM, Torsten Bergmann <astares(a)gmx.de> wrote: > In recent 3.0 Pharo images the Nautlilus browser shows packages and > groups in the same pane. Is this in general intended for the future or a bug? > > feature :) > > > Also the Hierarchy button is layered above the "Groups" button. > Is this just a layout problem or will the "Groups" button be obsolete anyway (see above)? > > is not on top, "groups" are removed (since now they are on top, no need for a button). > > anyway if you do not feel confortable, feel free to propose any kind of enhancement... this changes were made following the ideas behind a screenshot Stef sent some weeks ago (I do not remember the topic exactly now, but you will find it searching the history). > > > Thx > T. > >

Nov. 6, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] Feature request poll

by kilon alios

Nope quite the contrary. I came to pharo because I was interested in emacs. I am doing coding for fun for 23 years now, I have used and messed around with most popular languages out there and in that time I never heard of Smalltalk nor I heard people mention it apart from a year or so ago someone in #emacs irc channel, after my complain that I love emacs (was using it for python coding) but I prefer GUIs he replied "maybe you should try squeak". And from squeak I came to pharo. I was python coder at the time and very happy one, so I had no intention of switching languages. I was just learning lisp because I wanted to find out what was the big deal with it since I knew several coders that made a lot of noise about it. I remained with it because for me Pharo unites two of my favorite development tools, python language and Delphi IDE. So no it was definitely not Smalltalk that brought me here and I suspect for most people applies the same apply since smalltalk is very unpopular. What brought me was emacs, python and delphi. On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 1:08 PM, Janko MivÅ¡ek <janko.mivsek(a)eranova.si>wrote: > Hi Kilon, > > Dne 06. 11. 2013 12:00, piÅ¡e kilon alios: > > I can only speak on behalf of newcomers as I am a newcomer myself, that > > I dont care if Pharo is smalltalk, a dialect, a byproduct , a hybrid, > > alien technology. > > But you found Pharo because you were firstly interested in Smalltalk? If > Pharo wouldn't be Smalltalk, would you still found it the same way as > you did? > > Best regards > Janko > > > What I care is that is well supported (bug wise), > > friendly community (forums), actively developed (updates/ bug fixes), > > stable enough, a breath of fresh air (who wants to use the same stuff) > > and sufficiently documented. See what I did there I did not even mention > > the language nor the environment. > > > > I am happy that Pharo is all these things, the fact that is smalltalk or > > a dialect of it, is just a happy accident ;) > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 10:17 AM, Goubier Thierry <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr > > <mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr>> wrote: > > > > Don't even need to follow the link to guess where that comes from > :):):) > > > > The text transcription: > > http://www.epicure.demon.co.__uk/whattheromans.html > > <http://www.epicure.demon.co.uk/whattheromans.html> > > > > Thierry > > > > Le 06/11/2013 01:28, Paul DeBruicker a Ã©crit : > > > > For whomever wonders what "what have the romans ever done for > > us" is about > > watch: > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?__v=9foi342LXQE > > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9foi342LXQE> > > > > > > you can stop around 2:10 > > > > > > > > -- > > View this message in context: > > > http://forum.world.st/Feature-__request-poll-__tp4718993p4719475.html > > < > http://forum.world.st/Feature-request-poll-tp4718993p4719475.html> > > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at > > Nabble.com. > > > > > > > > -- > > Thierry Goubier > > CEA list > > Laboratoire des Fondations des SystÃ¨mes Temps RÃ©el EmbarquÃ©s > > 91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex > > France > > Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95 > > > >

Nov. 6, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] Nautilus groups in 3.0

by Esteban Lorenzano

On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 8:46 AM, Torsten Bergmann <astares(a)gmx.de> wrote: > In recent 3.0 Pharo images the Nautlilus browser shows packages and > groups in the same pane. Is this in general intended for the future or a > bug? > feature :) > > Also the Hierarchy button is layered above the "Groups" button. > Is this just a layout problem or will the "Groups" button be obsolete > anyway (see above)? > is not on top, "groups" are removed (since now they are on top, no need for a button). anyway if you do not feel confortable, feel free to propose any kind of enhancement... this changes were made following the ideas behind a screenshot Stef sent some weeks ago (I do not remember the topic exactly now, but you will find it searching the history). > > Thx > T. > >

Nov. 6, 2013

Nautilus groups in 3.0

by Torsten Bergmann

In recent 3.0 Pharo images the Nautlilus browser shows packages and groups in the same pane. Is this in general intended for the future or a bug? Also the Hierarchy button is layered above the "Groups" button. Is this just a layout problem or will the "Groups" button be obsolete anyway (see above)? Thx T.

Nov. 6, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] [Edu] 3-day project with high school students

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

On Nov 6, 2013, at 12:37 PM, roberto.minelli(a)usi.ch wrote: > Hi, > > I would like to hear an opinion from you. I need to organize a 3-day project with high-school students. In short they will come to our University and I am the responsible to guide them to do âsomethingâ to introduce them to programming. > > The assumption is that they have zero background about programming. In this mailing list Iâve read a couple of previous discussions about how to start to use Pharo and ST for educational purposes, but Iâd love to collect additional opinions. > > Visual programming is one of the thing that came to my mind. I though about Phratch. Michele suggested me to look also at Etoys (squeakland.org) and I will start to look at thesee two tools in the next days. phratch is better from that point of view. because looking cooler. Now an inspector on a popSocket and fetching mail lively is always fun. Stef > > Any opinion, proposal, tool, article, suggestion, hint on the topic is really welcome. > > Thanks in advance, > Roberto > >

Nov. 6, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] Deep Into Pharo: PPExpressionParser

by Sean P. DeNigris

Thanks! I'm clear on how to use them, just not on why to choose one over the other... ----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Deep-Into-Pharo-PPExpressionParser-tp4719454p4719556.… Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Nov. 6, 2013

[Edu] 3-day project with high school students

by roberto.minelli＠usi.ch

Hi, I would like to hear an opinion from you. I need to organize a 3-day project with high-school students. In short they will come to our University and I am the responsible to guide them to do âsomethingâ to introduce them to programming. The assumption is that they have zero background about programming. In this mailing list Iâve read a couple of previous discussions about how to start to use Pharo and ST for educational purposes, but Iâd love to collect additional opinions. Visual programming is one of the thing that came to my mind. I though about Phratch. Michele suggested me to look also at Etoys (squeakland.org) and I will start to look at thesee two tools in the next days. Any opinion, proposal, tool, article, suggestion, hint on the topic is really welcome. Thanks in advance, Roberto

Nov. 6, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] Github and Pharo

by kilon alios

well done mate, keep them coming :) When I first tried pharo I was afraid that I would deal with a lot of abandon projects , half finished libraries, bugs that are decades old. But I see so much active development and people who take Pharo very seriously that has extended my stay. And even though I always had python as my fall back plan , the reality of sticking with Pharo comes closer every day the more I learn and the more projects I find. I really like it here :) On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 2:32 PM, Goubier Thierry <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr>wrote: > > > Le 04/11/2013 23:19, kilon alios a Ã©crit : > > It does work indeed, commit wise. But can I git pull and git push with it >> ? >> > > Something like that? > > Thierry > > >> On Mon, Nov 4, 2013 at 10:50 PM, GOUBIER Thierry <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr >> <mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr>> wrote: >> >> Alexandre, >> >> using Git with Pharo (2 and 3) works today on Mac and Linux with >> MonticelloFileTree and MonticelloFileTree-Git. >> >> FileSystem-Git will be a better way to do it (and more portable) :) >> >> Thierry >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> ------------ >> *De :* Pharo-dev [pharo-dev-bounces(a)lists.pharo.org >> <mailto:pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org>] de la part de Alexandre >> Bergel [alexandre.bergel(a)me.com <mailto:alexandre.bergel@me.com>] >> *Date d'envoi :* lundi 4 novembre 2013 21:34 >> >> *Ã :* Pharo Development List >> *Cc:* Pharo Development List >> >> *Objet :* Re: [Pharo-dev] Github and Pharo >> >> >> +1 >> Everybody is waiting for using Git with Pharo. There is a real >> possibility to impact 100s of users... >> Go go go! >> >> Alexandre >> >> Alexandre >> >> Le 04-11-2013 Ã 15:35, kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com >> <mailto:kilon.alios@gmail.com>> a Ã©crit : >> >> Yeah I agree, this is an awesome project and thank you for your >>> hard work :) >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Nov 4, 2013 at 8:12 PM, GOUBIER Thierry >>> <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr <mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Max, >>> >>> I saw you were on it :) It's a huge effort you're undertaking. >>> I learned a bit about git internal storage stepping through >>> the code. >>> >>> Thierry >>> >>> ________________________________________ >>> De : Pharo-dev [pharo-dev-bounces(a)lists.pharo.org >>> <mailto:pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org>] de la part de Max >>> Leske [maxleske(a)gmail.com <mailto:maxleske@gmail.com>] >>> >>> Date d'envoi : lundi 4 novembre 2013 17:44 >>> Ã : Pharo Development List >>> Objet : Re: [Pharo-dev] Github and Pharo >>> >>> FileSystem-Git is basically in alpha at the momentâ¦ Iâm >>> rewriting it. >>> >>> >>> On 04.11.2013, at 17:04, Goubier Thierry >>> <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr <mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr>> wrote: >>> >>> > Ok, I tried a bit with FileSystem-Git, but it seems there is >>> still a bit of work to do... >>> > >>> > I tried on one of my work repository, and: >>> > - it failed trying to uft8convert a packed data file. >>> > So I corrected the error (get the stream as binary!) and >>> > - It failed looking for one of the commit IDs >>> > I found the ref in a pack file; apparently, it's not looking >>> in there... >>> > I'm forcing a read of the pack files in there >>> > - Yet another utf8convert error on binary data >>> > Corrected, I got the pack files, but the index isn't telling >>> me much. >>> > I tried to list the objects in it... Unknown compression >>> method error. >>> > >>> > There's a huge amount of code in there, it's a bit >>> frightening. I think I'll stay with OSProcess a bit longer ;) >>> > >>> > Thierry >>> > >>> > Le 04/11/2013 14:28, Goubier Thierry a Ã©crit : >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Le 04/11/2013 14:09, David T. Lewis a Ã©crit : >>> >>> On Mon, Nov 04, 2013 at 01:58:29PM +0100, Goubier Thierry >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> Le 04/11/2013 12:11, kilon alios a ?crit : >>> >>>>> yeap filetree did the trick here. However it does not >>> allow to browse >>> >>>>> through the git commits as gitfiletree does, the only >>> commit available >>> >>>>> is the last commit. >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> I took a look at CommandShell and friends and they all >>> look pretty much >>> >>>>> very broken. For example in workspace I executed >>> >>>>> [ CommandShellTranscript open.] and trying "ls" or "dir" >>> it creates an >>> >>>>> error because it add C path inside pharo subdirectories. >>> Dont know if >>> >>>>> this is normal behavior. >>> >>> >>> >>> Use "CommandShell open" rather than >>> "CommandShellTranscript open". >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> I hope someone with more knowledge than me of OSProcess >>> under windows >>> >>>> will have a look :) >>> >>>> >>> >>> OSProcess support for Windows is incomplete, so this will >>> probably not >>> >>> do what you need. If the OSProcess is included in the >>> Windows VM, it will >>> >>> let you run a Windows program, but it will not do most of >>> the other >>> >>> things >>> >>> that you expect from OSProcess. >>> >>> >>> >>> Check http://www.squeaksource.com/ProcessWrapper.html for >>> a possible >>> >>> alternative. >>> >> >>> >> Thanks Dave; no easy solution on that, it seems. I'll have >>> a look then >>> >> with FileSystem-Git, this one may be a more portable solution. >>> >> >>> >> Windows is still a world apart from the rest :( >>> >> >>> >> Thierry >>> > >>> > -- >>> > Thierry Goubier >>> > CEA list >>> > Laboratoire des Fondations des SystÃ¨mes Temps RÃ©el EmbarquÃ©s >>> > 91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex >>> > France >>> > Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95 >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > -- > Thierry Goubier > CEA list > Laboratoire des Fondations des SystÃ¨mes Temps RÃ©el EmbarquÃ©s > 91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex > France > Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95 >

Nov. 6, 2013