October 2013 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] bug: [4993] Typing cmd+L cancel all typing and we can't undo it [Terminated]

by Igor Stasenko

i using cmd-l very very very often.. it allows me to type any random text in any random place and then all this stuff is gone with single key stroke. more than that, it marks text back as unmodified, so i do not need to deal with browser entering the "commit or cancel" mode, asking me stupid questions like "do you want to commit or cancel" so , it is regression. It is regression just from a single perspective, that it adds one more modal dialog which blocks your workflow. A proper fix would be is to add the undo command, so if you pressed cmd-l by mistake, you can undo it by pressing cmd-z but one more dialog asking annoying questions.. no go! Btw, i already proposed how we can to avoid putting modal dialog for "code modified submit or cancel" question. P.S. Don't mode me in! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mode_%28computer_interface%29 On 15 October 2013 14:56, Camillo Bruni <camillobruni(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > On 2013-10-15, at 14:52, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr> wrote: > > > > > On Oct 15, 2013, at 1:41 PM, Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com> > wrote: > > > >> I use Cmd-L almost as often than Cmd-P > > > > I got to know Cmd-l only because I got so upset of randomly loosing code. > > It's the most horrible thing I ever saw in the system. > > I never used it *ever*, but lost code *many* *many* times by accident > without > > even understanding what happened. > > > > I hate it. > > I follow the exact same reasoning :P > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

Oct. 15, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] default monospaced code font

by Igor Stasenko

Since the days when editors was able to allow me using any fonts, i was always switching to variable-spaced font for code pane. And i am not speaking about smalltalk or pharo here, it was C and Pascal those days :) guess, what i would prefer in pharo? :) The bad things about getting used to monospaced fonts is that you format code and it looks perfect, but then you print it or copy/paste it somewhere else where it uses other font, and all your beautiful formatting are gone. Needless to say, that printing press was invented way before first computer or digital printer, and all we know about fonts came to us from the printing world.. and i think i would be right saying that before first digital printers there was not such thing as monospaced fonts, because it is not economically efficient: you don't want to waste space on front page of your newspaper by aligning glyphs to some virtual grid. More than that, it works well only if you using same font size and no bold/underline variants whatever.. as soon as you use variants or different font size, all the benefits of 'formatting' using monospaced font is gone. That means, if we employ monospaced font for code, we will be forced to not use bold/italic variants, or different font size (for instance, i would be like to play with code highlight scheme, where comments using different font size, or where method name uses bigger font size etc). -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

Oct. 15, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] default monospaced code font

by Goubier Thierry

Le 15/10/2013 15:07, Camillo Bruni a Ã©crit : >>> Besides Smalltalk, I don't know any other language that would use proportial fonts. >> >> And? Your sample against mine. We're going nowhere :) > > Exactly, so we have options in the image to solve these cases, so we can agree to disagree. I agree with that :) >>> After that, anybody who really knows how to use Pharo can modify it. >>> The newcomer is the only one you target... >> >> Sort of. You can piss people off, when you do and say that. Who can afford to rewrite Nautilus among the people around here? > > I am talking about preferences here. My misunderstanding :) Not everything can be set by preferences, still. Themes are complex, for example. Thierry -- Thierry Goubier CEA list Laboratoire des Fondations des SystÃ¨mes Temps RÃ©el EmbarquÃ©s 91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex France Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95

Oct. 15, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] default monospaced code font

by Esteban Lorenzano

On Oct 15, 2013, at 3:18 PM, Goubier Thierry <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr> wrote: > > > Le 15/10/2013 15:07, Camillo Bruni a Ã©crit : >>>> Besides Smalltalk, I don't know any other language that would use proportial fonts. >>> >>> And? Your sample against mine. We're going nowhere :) >> >> Exactly, so we have options in the image to solve these cases, so we can agree to disagree. > > I agree with that :) > >>>> After that, anybody who really knows how to use Pharo can modify it. >>>> The newcomer is the only one you target... >>> >>> Sort of. You can piss people off, when you do and say that. Who can afford to rewrite Nautilus among the people around here? >> >> I am talking about preferences here. > > My misunderstanding :) Not everything can be set by preferences, still. Themes are complex, for example. mmmm... themes are trivial (just go to "themes" and choose the one you want) but iconsets are still not possible (they will). > > Thierry > -- > Thierry Goubier > CEA list > Laboratoire des Fondations des SystÃ¨mes Temps RÃ©el EmbarquÃ©s > 91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex > France > Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95 >

Oct. 15, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] default monospaced code font

by Esteban Lorenzano

On Oct 15, 2013, at 3:09 PM, Goubier Thierry <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr> wrote: > > > Le 15/10/2013 14:46, Camillo Bruni a Ã©crit : >> processing.org uses monospaced font, these are the art guys that have more sense graphics >> than any one this mailinglist (BTW, how many of you have visited an art school?) > > Not me. > > I'm often not impressed by the tools used by graphics designers. I can't get my head around the blender GUI, for example. > > Specialized communities, tools around their own concepts and very productive for the training they have in it. Not a good entry level GUI, in most cases. > > Innovative, interesting GUIs ? Game, arts projects (not tools, results out of their tools). > >> Besides Smalltalk, I don't know any other language that would use proportial fonts. > > And? Your sample against mine. We're going nowhere :) > >> After that, anybody who really knows how to use Pharo can modify it. >> The newcomer is the only one you target... > > Sort of. You can piss people off, when you do and say that. Who can afford to rewrite Nautilus among the people around here? just Ben :) I'm suffering a lot in this moment just to enhance it :) > > Thierry > >> On 2013-10-15, at 13:57, Goubier Thierry <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr> wrote: >>> Interesting discussion. I'll raise a few issues. >>> >>> Le 15/10/2013 13:29, Esteban Lorenzano a Ã©crit : >>>> well... fonts and UX in general are two different (yet related) issues. >>>> >>>> UX is a huge an complicated task, and has to be taken very seriously if we want to succeed. To allow the appropriate/productive/happy flows in an environment requires a lot of effort and to put all the pieces together. >>>> Yes, I know, that sounds so general that is like not saying anything :) >>>> Here is the concrete: Put all the UX pieces together requires a lot of effort usually not taken into account. That's how the UX evolved more or less the same way as morphic: a patch over a patch without much thinking about the issue, just takign what is there and parching/extending as needed. As morphic, the current UX in pharo is broken: there is no coherence between tools and sometimes even inside the same tool (for example nautilus has different behavior inside the code panel than in the list panels on top). >>>> This is not the fault of any tool, just a consequence of how evolution was managed until now. >>> >>> Some of the thing most forgot is that when you do a GUI, what takes time is not doing it, it's polishing it. Making sure all small things play together nicely, and that you've spent days trying to get that drag and drop to work in the perfect way, with the right feedback and all (and focus navigation, and...). >>> >>>> So, we wanted a better UX for Pharo3 that included: a new Theme, new Icon set, and new tools that worked well together. But task demonstrated to be a hard to beat beast, and we just moved forward in small areas (there is for example a new centralized menu coming along with a new spotlight). >>>> And there is a prototype of a new theme and also some icons that where thought specially and that will fit nicely. But they will not be ready this year and after thinking a while (and getting feedback of people in community), we decided, for Pharo3: >>>> >>>> - adopt the glamour theme. This is a step forward our current one because glamour guys (specially Doru) continued working on it to have a really clean and simple theme. >>> >>> Is it the default theme coming with the latest 3.0, with that flat look? Hate it because it breaks one HCI guideline visual cue: feedback when pressing on a GUI element (scrollbars, buttons); there is none in that theme. >>> >>> There it looks like a step backward, coming back to the squeak look (which turned me away from squeak for many years: yes that's not rational but can't get over it. Pharo was the first to give me back the feedback at the GUI level) >>> >>>> - adopt the EclipsePack theme because is an iconset specially thought for programming that plays very well together. No matter if you do not like Eclipse (even if I think you are missing the relevance of Eclipse and a lot of good ideas that we could take from them), is about creating a unified vision. The old icon set (famfam) was not intended for programming environment and also there were a lot of different icons incorporated anarchically. >>> >>> Iconset are hard. But some of the Eclipse iconset are downright ugly (packages). >>> >>>> - adopt a monospaced font for coding (right now Source Code Pro) and a non-monospaced for the rest (right now Open Sans). >>> >>> Hum. Once you're set on a non-monospaced font for coding, as most smalltalkers have, going back to a monospaced font will hurt... I'm not even using a monospaced font for coding in C :( >>> >>>> The objective is to offer a L&F that where visual elements plays well together. >>> >>> Work on that is the real key. Not sure the theme changes are part of it, however. >>> >>> I value more a drive to get everything Spec-iffied: tends to create a lot of common look and feel because applications tend to behave in the same way. >>> >>>> And there is another more important (IMHO) objective: to offer newcomers an environment easier to approach. Pharo (and all Smalltalk-inspired environments) is already very alien for newcomers. We get a lot of power in exchange of that alienish stuff, but very often the curve of learning or acceptance is too high and people that could step closer to us are pushed away. So, my idea is to keep been as alien as possible in the things that make us Pharo and be the less alien possible in the rest: A nice L&F that can be feel as "some kind" familiar, is part of it. >>> >>> It's a good objective, but... There is something there; Pharo is different enough in it's approach that trying to match Eclipse won't work and may even disrupt more, because you will make it alike where it is not. >>> >>>> Said so... well you still can switch back to the old and ugly (IMO) L&F executing some lines of code in your workspace. >>> >>> Or a setting somewhere :) >>> >>>> Same to fonts: monospaced fonts is the worldwide accepted way of present source code. Why should we stay different? >>> >>> I wouldn't be so sure of that. >>> >>>> In any case, please give it a chance before drop it (once I can actually see why the fonts are not really applied) and we'll see how it works. >>> >>> I will :) But, I'd be frank, here none of us is a HCI specialist, and it shows. Sorry, but it does. No usability testing, no look into HCI guidelines, but, at the same time, probably the most advanced GUI toolkit available (Morphic), some of the best mind when it comes to architecturing GUI code (and code on average), and the most productive environment around. >>> >>> If you want to make it familiar, look into Dolphin and VisualWorks and copy that :) >>> >>> Thierry >>> -- >>> Thierry Goubier >>> CEA list >>> Laboratoire des Fondations des SystÃ¨mes Temps RÃ©el EmbarquÃ©s >>> 91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex >>> France >>> Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95 >>> >> > > -- > Thierry Goubier > CEA list > Laboratoire des Fondations des SystÃ¨mes Temps RÃ©el EmbarquÃ©s > 91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex > France > Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95 >

Oct. 15, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] default monospaced code font

by Esteban Lorenzano

On Oct 15, 2013, at 1:57 PM, Goubier Thierry <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr> wrote: > Interesting discussion. I'll raise a few issues. > > Le 15/10/2013 13:29, Esteban Lorenzano a Ã©crit : >> well... fonts and UX in general are two different (yet related) issues. >> >> UX is a huge an complicated task, and has to be taken very seriously if we want to succeed. To allow the appropriate/productive/happy flows in an environment requires a lot of effort and to put all the pieces together. >> Yes, I know, that sounds so general that is like not saying anything :) >> Here is the concrete: Put all the UX pieces together requires a lot of effort usually not taken into account. That's how the UX evolved more or less the same way as morphic: a patch over a patch without much thinking about the issue, just takign what is there and parching/extending as needed. As morphic, the current UX in pharo is broken: there is no coherence between tools and sometimes even inside the same tool (for example nautilus has different behavior inside the code panel than in the list panels on top). >> This is not the fault of any tool, just a consequence of how evolution was managed until now. > > Some of the thing most forgot is that when you do a GUI, what takes time is not doing it, it's polishing it. Making sure all small things play together nicely, and that you've spent days trying to get that drag and drop to work in the perfect way, with the right feedback and all (and focus navigation, and...). > >> So, we wanted a better UX for Pharo3 that included: a new Theme, new Icon set, and new tools that worked well together. But task demonstrated to be a hard to beat beast, and we just moved forward in small areas (there is for example a new centralized menu coming along with a new spotlight). >> And there is a prototype of a new theme and also some icons that where thought specially and that will fit nicely. But they will not be ready this year and after thinking a while (and getting feedback of people in community), we decided, for Pharo3: >> >> - adopt the glamour theme. This is a step forward our current one because glamour guys (specially Doru) continued working on it to have a really clean and simple theme. > > Is it the default theme coming with the latest 3.0, with that flat look? Hate it because it breaks one HCI guideline visual cue: feedback when pressing on a GUI element (scrollbars, buttons); there is none in that theme. > > There it looks like a step backward, coming back to the squeak look (which turned me away from squeak for many years: yes that's not rational but can't get over it. Pharo was the first to give me back the feedback at the GUI level) > >> - adopt the EclipsePack theme because is an iconset specially thought for programming that plays very well together. No matter if you do not like Eclipse (even if I think you are missing the relevance of Eclipse and a lot of good ideas that we could take from them), is about creating a unified vision. The old icon set (famfam) was not intended for programming environment and also there were a lot of different icons incorporated anarchically. > > Iconset are hard. But some of the Eclipse iconset are downright ugly (packages). > >> - adopt a monospaced font for coding (right now Source Code Pro) and a non-monospaced for the rest (right now Open Sans). > > Hum. Once you're set on a non-monospaced font for coding, as most smalltalkers have, going back to a monospaced font will hurt... I'm not even using a monospaced font for coding in C :( > >> The objective is to offer a L&F that where visual elements plays well together. > > Work on that is the real key. Not sure the theme changes are part of it, however. > > I value more a drive to get everything Spec-iffied: tends to create a lot of common look and feel because applications tend to behave in the same way. > >> And there is another more important (IMHO) objective: to offer newcomers an environment easier to approach. Pharo (and all Smalltalk-inspired environments) is already very alien for newcomers. We get a lot of power in exchange of that alienish stuff, but very often the curve of learning or acceptance is too high and people that could step closer to us are pushed away. So, my idea is to keep been as alien as possible in the things that make us Pharo and be the less alien possible in the rest: A nice L&F that can be feel as "some kind" familiar, is part of it. > > It's a good objective, but... There is something there; Pharo is different enough in it's approach that trying to match Eclipse won't work and may even disrupt more, because you will make it alike where it is not. > >> Said so... well you still can switch back to the old and ugly (IMO) L&F executing some lines of code in your workspace. > > Or a setting somewhere :) > >> Same to fonts: monospaced fonts is the worldwide accepted way of present source code. Why should we stay different? > > I wouldn't be so sure of that. > >> In any case, please give it a chance before drop it (once I can actually see why the fonts are not really applied) and we'll see how it works. > > I will :) But, I'd be frank, here none of us is a HCI specialist, and it shows. Sorry, but it does. No usability testing, no look into HCI guidelines, but, at the same time, probably the most advanced GUI toolkit available (Morphic), some of the best mind when it comes to architecturing GUI code (and code on average), and the most productive environment around. Thanks for the open mind. This is still an open work, so we still can change stuff... but in any case our focus is: enhance the newcomer experience, allow power users to customize their environment by using preferences (in that case, yes, there will be preferences for switching back in any moment). And well... is true that none of us is HCI specialist, but I'm trying t do my best, and I'm in constant communication with HCI specialists who actually follow that list :) > If you want to make it familiar, look into Dolphin and VisualWorks and copy that :) I do, all the time. But I also look other stuff besides the smalltalks, even if I do not like them. I try to have enough openness to incorporate the ideas I find interesting. > > Thierry > -- > Thierry Goubier > CEA list > Laboratoire des Fondations des SystÃ¨mes Temps RÃ©el EmbarquÃ©s > 91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex > France > Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95 >

Oct. 15, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] default monospaced code font

by Goubier Thierry

Le 15/10/2013 14:46, Camillo Bruni a Ã©crit : > processing.org uses monospaced font, these are the art guys that have more sense graphics > than any one this mailinglist (BTW, how many of you have visited an art school?) Not me. I'm often not impressed by the tools used by graphics designers. I can't get my head around the blender GUI, for example. Specialized communities, tools around their own concepts and very productive for the training they have in it. Not a good entry level GUI, in most cases. Innovative, interesting GUIs ? Game, arts projects (not tools, results out of their tools). > Besides Smalltalk, I don't know any other language that would use proportial fonts. And? Your sample against mine. We're going nowhere :) > After that, anybody who really knows how to use Pharo can modify it. > The newcomer is the only one you target... Sort of. You can piss people off, when you do and say that. Who can afford to rewrite Nautilus among the people around here? Thierry > On 2013-10-15, at 13:57, Goubier Thierry <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr> wrote: >> Interesting discussion. I'll raise a few issues. >> >> Le 15/10/2013 13:29, Esteban Lorenzano a Ã©crit : >>> well... fonts and UX in general are two different (yet related) issues. >>> >>> UX is a huge an complicated task, and has to be taken very seriously if we want to succeed. To allow the appropriate/productive/happy flows in an environment requires a lot of effort and to put all the pieces together. >>> Yes, I know, that sounds so general that is like not saying anything :) >>> Here is the concrete: Put all the UX pieces together requires a lot of effort usually not taken into account. That's how the UX evolved more or less the same way as morphic: a patch over a patch without much thinking about the issue, just takign what is there and parching/extending as needed. As morphic, the current UX in pharo is broken: there is no coherence between tools and sometimes even inside the same tool (for example nautilus has different behavior inside the code panel than in the list panels on top). >>> This is not the fault of any tool, just a consequence of how evolution was managed until now. >> >> Some of the thing most forgot is that when you do a GUI, what takes time is not doing it, it's polishing it. Making sure all small things play together nicely, and that you've spent days trying to get that drag and drop to work in the perfect way, with the right feedback and all (and focus navigation, and...). >> >>> So, we wanted a better UX for Pharo3 that included: a new Theme, new Icon set, and new tools that worked well together. But task demonstrated to be a hard to beat beast, and we just moved forward in small areas (there is for example a new centralized menu coming along with a new spotlight). >>> And there is a prototype of a new theme and also some icons that where thought specially and that will fit nicely. But they will not be ready this year and after thinking a while (and getting feedback of people in community), we decided, for Pharo3: >>> >>> - adopt the glamour theme. This is a step forward our current one because glamour guys (specially Doru) continued working on it to have a really clean and simple theme. >> >> Is it the default theme coming with the latest 3.0, with that flat look? Hate it because it breaks one HCI guideline visual cue: feedback when pressing on a GUI element (scrollbars, buttons); there is none in that theme. >> >> There it looks like a step backward, coming back to the squeak look (which turned me away from squeak for many years: yes that's not rational but can't get over it. Pharo was the first to give me back the feedback at the GUI level) >> >>> - adopt the EclipsePack theme because is an iconset specially thought for programming that plays very well together. No matter if you do not like Eclipse (even if I think you are missing the relevance of Eclipse and a lot of good ideas that we could take from them), is about creating a unified vision. The old icon set (famfam) was not intended for programming environment and also there were a lot of different icons incorporated anarchically. >> >> Iconset are hard. But some of the Eclipse iconset are downright ugly (packages). >> >>> - adopt a monospaced font for coding (right now Source Code Pro) and a non-monospaced for the rest (right now Open Sans). >> >> Hum. Once you're set on a non-monospaced font for coding, as most smalltalkers have, going back to a monospaced font will hurt... I'm not even using a monospaced font for coding in C :( >> >>> The objective is to offer a L&F that where visual elements plays well together. >> >> Work on that is the real key. Not sure the theme changes are part of it, however. >> >> I value more a drive to get everything Spec-iffied: tends to create a lot of common look and feel because applications tend to behave in the same way. >> >>> And there is another more important (IMHO) objective: to offer newcomers an environment easier to approach. Pharo (and all Smalltalk-inspired environments) is already very alien for newcomers. We get a lot of power in exchange of that alienish stuff, but very often the curve of learning or acceptance is too high and people that could step closer to us are pushed away. So, my idea is to keep been as alien as possible in the things that make us Pharo and be the less alien possible in the rest: A nice L&F that can be feel as "some kind" familiar, is part of it. >> >> It's a good objective, but... There is something there; Pharo is different enough in it's approach that trying to match Eclipse won't work and may even disrupt more, because you will make it alike where it is not. >> >>> Said so... well you still can switch back to the old and ugly (IMO) L&F executing some lines of code in your workspace. >> >> Or a setting somewhere :) >> >>> Same to fonts: monospaced fonts is the worldwide accepted way of present source code. Why should we stay different? >> >> I wouldn't be so sure of that. >> >>> In any case, please give it a chance before drop it (once I can actually see why the fonts are not really applied) and we'll see how it works. >> >> I will :) But, I'd be frank, here none of us is a HCI specialist, and it shows. Sorry, but it does. No usability testing, no look into HCI guidelines, but, at the same time, probably the most advanced GUI toolkit available (Morphic), some of the best mind when it comes to architecturing GUI code (and code on average), and the most productive environment around. >> >> If you want to make it familiar, look into Dolphin and VisualWorks and copy that :) >> >> Thierry >> -- >> Thierry Goubier >> CEA list >> Laboratoire des Fondations des SystÃ¨mes Temps RÃ©el EmbarquÃ©s >> 91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex >> France >> Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95 >> > -- Thierry Goubier CEA list Laboratoire des Fondations des SystÃ¨mes Temps RÃ©el EmbarquÃ©s 91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex France Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95

Oct. 15, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] default monospaced code font

by Esteban Lorenzano

On Oct 15, 2013, at 1:47 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > > On 15 Oct 2013, at 13:29, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> well... fonts and UX in general are two different (yet related) issues. >> >> UX is a huge an complicated task, and has to be taken very seriously if we want to succeed. To allow the appropriate/productive/happy flows in an environment requires a lot of effort and to put all the pieces together. >> Yes, I know, that sounds so general that is like not saying anything :) >> Here is the concrete: Put all the UX pieces together requires a lot of effort usually not taken into account. That's how the UX evolved more or less the same way as morphic: a patch over a patch without much thinking about the issue, just takign what is there and parching/extending as needed. As morphic, the current UX in pharo is broken: there is no coherence between tools and sometimes even inside the same tool (for example nautilus has different behavior inside the code panel than in the list panels on top). >> This is not the fault of any tool, just a consequence of how evolution was managed until now. >> So, we wanted a better UX for Pharo3 that included: a new Theme, new Icon set, and new tools that worked well together. But task demonstrated to be a hard to beat beast, and we just moved forward in small areas (there is for example a new centralized menu coming along with a new spotlight). >> And there is a prototype of a new theme and also some icons that where thought specially and that will fit nicely. But they will not be ready this year and after thinking a while (and getting feedback of people in community), we decided, for Pharo3: >> >> - adopt the glamour theme. This is a step forward our current one because glamour guys (specially Doru) continued working on it to have a really clean and simple theme. >> - adopt the EclipsePack theme because is an iconset specially thought for programming that plays very well together. No matter if you do not like Eclipse (even if I think you are missing the relevance of Eclipse and a lot of good ideas that we could take from them), is about creating a unified vision. The old icon set (famfam) was not intended for programming environment and also there were a lot of different icons incorporated anarchically. >> - adopt a monospaced font for coding (right now Source Code Pro) and a non-monospaced for the rest (right now Open Sans). > > I agree with everything, except the monospaced font. > When, where, how was this decided ? I didn't see any discussion about this. > I would be very surprised if you, or anyone else of the key developers, used that font. mmm... there was a "subjacent" discussion for months, but I agree that we should use more the list. In any case, this is still an open discussion. > Anyone else having an opinion about the mono spaced font ? > > It is not by erasing all differences with other systems that we will gain traction ! is not about erasing differences, is about not been different when been different does not follows a meaning. I have my own experience to support my pov here: in my years teaching with pharo, I always had "lateral problems" with things that were not relevant... I would like to erase that, yes. To keep pharo been unique in the things that really matters. > > BTW: I don't see the any monospaced font in 30484, luckily ;-) > >> The objective is to offer a L&F that where visual elements plays well together. >> And there is another more important (IMHO) objective: to offer newcomers an environment easier to approach. Pharo (and all Smalltalk-inspired environments) is already very alien for newcomers. We get a lot of power in exchange of that alienish stuff, but very often the curve of learning or acceptance is too high and people that could step closer to us are pushed away. So, my idea is to keep been as alien as possible in the things that make us Pharo and be the less alien possible in the rest: A nice L&F that can be feel as "some kind" familiar, is part of it. >> >> Said so... well you still can switch back to the old and ugly (IMO) L&F executing some lines of code in your workspace. >> >> Same to fonts: monospaced fonts is the worldwide accepted way of present source code. Why should we stay different? >> >> In any case, please give it a chance before drop it (once I can actually see why the fonts are not really applied) and we'll see how it works. >> >> Esteban >> >> >> On Oct 15, 2013, at 12:18 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: >> >>> >>> On 15 Oct 2013, at 08:30, Pavel Krivanek <pavel.krivanek(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> the issue that sets the new Pharo 3.0 look&feel uses a monospaced font >>>> for the code. It is only a coincidence that it is not set this way in >>>> the prebuild Pharo image. not a coincidence, a bug that arise when I tried to change it :) >>>> >>>> I have big doubts if this is the way to go. I think that proportional >>>> fonts are more natural for Smalltalk and without them the code is >>>> harder to read and not so beauty. I think that something like elastic >>>> tabstops would be much better solution. >>>> http://tibleiz.net/code-browser/elastic-tabstops.html Well... we can still iterate over the idea before release, but we do the best we can with the tools we have in the moment :) For me, is frankly uncomfortable to use proportional fonts when coding... is so annoying that I even use monospaced for lists, etc... but well, I accept the "current legislation": monospaced for code, proportional for the rest. >>> >>> Yeah, I can't imagine many Smalltalkers liking a mono-spaced font, I personally hate it. Oh well, I'm a pharoer, and I love them :) >>> >>>> On the other way, it is only my personal opinion and if you think that >>>> the Eclipse-like look will attract more new users... >>> >>> I don't like Eclipse ;-) But like Marcus says, it is just a different icon set. We want win any points on originality or personality though, which is a missed opportunity. >> >> > >

Oct. 15, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] default monospaced code font

by Camillo Bruni

>> Besides Smalltalk, I don't know any other language that would use proportial fonts. > > And? Your sample against mine. We're going nowhere :) Exactly, so we have options in the image to solve these cases, so we can agree to disagree. >> After that, anybody who really knows how to use Pharo can modify it. >> The newcomer is the only one you target... > > Sort of. You can piss people off, when you do and say that. Who can afford to rewrite Nautilus among the people around here? I am talking about preferences here.

Oct. 15, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] default monospaced code font

by Norbert Hartl

Am 15.10.2013 um 12:18 schrieb Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu>: > > On 15 Oct 2013, at 08:30, Pavel Krivanek <pavel.krivanek(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> the issue that sets the new Pharo 3.0 look&feel uses a monospaced font >> for the code. It is only a coincidence that it is not set this way in >> the prebuild Pharo image. >> >> I have big doubts if this is the way to go. I think that proportional >> fonts are more natural for Smalltalk and without them the code is >> harder to read and not so beauty. I think that something like elastic >> tabstops would be much better solution. >> http://tibleiz.net/code-browser/elastic-tabstops.html > > Yeah, I can't imagine many Smalltalkers liking a mono-spaced font, I personally hate it. > +1 >> On the other way, it is only my personal opinion and if you think that >> the Eclipse-like look will attract more new users... > > I don't like Eclipse ;-) But like Marcus says, it is just a different icon set. We want win any points on originality or personality though, which is a missed opportunity. Norbert

Oct. 15, 2013