July 2012 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Setting MC cache directory (was renggli mirror created on smalltalkhub)

by Mariano Martinez Peck

On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 6:02 PM, Camillo Bruni <camillobruni(a)gmail.com>wrote: > > On 2012-07-04, at 17:36, Torsten Bergmann wrote: > > > Camillo wrote: > >> Here in lille almost everybody sets up symlinks to have a single shared > >> instance of a package-cache :) > > > > This should be part of the past if issue #6260 is integrated (see [1]) > > The monkey is here no very helpful for the fix - since it laments on > > test that were red before and sets the issue state to WorkNeeded. > > I'll put ben on it to see what the problem with the monkey is. > > We run tests twice, the second run should be in a clean image (not where the first run was done). Is it like that now? > once before and once after loading to avoid issues with > existing failing tests, so this behavior is rather strange :) > > > Any real person able to review and integrate it? > > > > There is also Marianos solution, see [2] > > > > Bye > > T. > > > > [1] http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6260 > > [2] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/pipermail/pharo-project/2012-July/067083.html > > > > > -- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com

July 4, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] renggli mirror created on smalltalkhub

by Dale Henrichs

Sven, It's actually Cami and Max that are doing the work ... The sequence of events as I seem them are: 1. git compatible package format (Cypress/FileTree) ... DONE 2. Metacello support for git/github (in progress) 3. in-image support for git operations (in progress) There are a handful of folks who have already started using FileTree/git/github for their projects. I am a week or so away from a preview release of Metacello support for git/github (including the Metacello scripting api). I frankly haven't had the time to work with the Fs-Git stuff. but once I've got Metacello git/github aware I will be able to raise my head up and look around:) Dale ----- Original Message ----- | From: "Sean P. DeNigris" <sean(a)clipperadams.com> | To: pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr | Sent: Wednesday, July 4, 2012 7:44:18 AM | Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] renggli mirror created on smalltalkhub | | | Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote | > | > That is my point exactly: it is not that it is difficult, but you | > have to | > work in two environments (image/terminal/git-app) and be extra | > careful not | > to make mistakes (like saving two versions locally without | > committing). | > | | This is just a temporary situation. Dale is working on git | integration with | the image... | | -- | View this message in context: | http://forum.world.st/renggli-mirror-created-on-smalltalkhub-tp4638011p4638… | Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. | |

July 4, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] renggli mirror created on smalltalkhub

by Dale Henrichs

Stef, I agree ... my intent is to make it possible for individual projects to make the "git/github or not decision". Git/github support will be built into the next release of Metacello and will make it possible for folks who don't have the time to learn git to still use projects hosted by github. Dale ----- Original Message ----- | From: "StÃ©phane Ducasse" <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> | To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr | Sent: Wednesday, July 4, 2012 7:10:40 AM | Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] renggli mirror created on smalltalkhub | | Guys | | I'm sorry to tell you that but I personally do not have 5 min of | energy for GIT for pharo 2.0 | I want to focus my energy on finishing the tasks we decided a while | ago. | Personally a working Squeaksource is good enough for now. | | Stef | | |

July 4, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] renggli mirror created on smalltalkhub

by Dale Henrichs

Dennis, The work that Cami, Max and I are doing leverages Monticello - Monticello is beautiful... only the external storage format is being replaced ... swapping out .mcz files for Cypress package structure.... by replacing a zip file with git we are gaining the power of git (distributed scm ... the whole repository copied when you 'clone') without giving up the advantages of the Monticello package structure. Once we are using git, we can leverage the power of GitHub ... Dale ----- Original Message ----- | From: "Dennis Schetinin" <chaetal(a)gmail.com> | To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr | Sent: Wednesday, July 4, 2012 6:34:39 AM | Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] renggli mirror created on smalltalkhub | | | "MC is not good enough" and "We should use Git" are a bit different | thoughts. If MC is not good enough we should improve it or create | better tools, but (for me) Git seems to be a wrong direction for | that. I've tried to explain in another message why. | | | | | | Best regards, | Dennis Schetinin | Sent with Sparrow | | | | On Wednesday, 4 July 2012 Ð³. at 16:17, Esteban Lorenzano wrote: | | | | | Hi, | | No, what is wrong is considering monticello itself an object oriented | control management system. Right now MC does not provides anything | that can be thought as that... even more, MC does not provides | anything better than current CMS around... | So, what we have now is an old CMS, and a lot of tools trying to be | compatible with that old system. Imagine if GIT would tried to be | compatible with CVS... and to create an object control management is | a considerable effort, no one want to do, and probably pointless... | at least right now. | | | best, | Esteban | | | | | | On Jul 4, 2012, at 2:09 PM, Dennis Schetinin wrote: | | | | | Am I wrong considering migration to Git-or-AnythingElseTextOriented | to be a give up on hopes for a real object-oriented source | control/management as it could and should be in Smalltalk? | | | | Best regards, | Dennis Schetinin | Sent with Sparrow | | | | On Wednesday, 4 July 2012 Ð³. at 16:02, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote: | | | | | | | | On 04 Jul 2012, at 13:50, phil(a)highoctane.be wrote: | | | | | | I am using Mercurial for all of the other projects and technologies. | | | With a full copy of everything locally, it helps indeed when we get | crashes... | | | But GIT/Hg isn't giving you the change sorter. | | | I have used/tried FileTree/Git(hub) a bit and it is cool and it | works. | But I do miss (tools) integration in the image. | The workflow also changes a bit, it is no longer all Smalltalk. | | | IMHO it is not yet quite ready. | | | Sven | | | | |

July 4, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] renggli mirror created on smalltalkhub

by Dale Henrichs

Dennis, If you look at the Cypress format[1] (used by FileTree), it is the Monticello package structure "serialized to disk". Reading the Cypress format from disk is no different than materializing the Monticello package structure from an .mcz file. So any program that an reason about the definitions from an .mcz file can reason about the definitions from the Cypress format. Cypress format may look like text, but to me I see Smalltalk objects:) Dale [1] https://github.com/CampSmalltalk/Cypress/blob/master/img/CypressStructure-S… ----- Original Message ----- | From: "Dennis Schetinin" <chaetal(a)gmail.com> | To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr | Sent: Wednesday, July 4, 2012 6:29:40 AM | Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] renggli mirror created on smalltalkhub | | | On Wednesday, 4 July 2012 Ð³. at 16:11, Damien Cassou wrote: | | | | | On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 2:09 PM, Dennis Schetinin < chaetal(a)gmail.com | > wrote: | | | | Am I wrong considering migration to Git-or-AnythingElseTextOriented | to be a | give up on hopes for a real object-oriented source control/management | as it | could and should be in Smalltalk? | | | can you think of any feature we could have now we couldn't with Git? | I didn't say "now", I talked about "hopes". E.g. hopes for "Source" | Control Tool being aware of refactorings and other *operations* I | apply to my program, instead of treating it as a plain text with | some changes of unknown nature. I'm not sure it's possible right now | (I know it's not, better to say?). But with a Smalltalk-based source | control we can have it on one splendid day in the future. And I | think on the Git way we'll finish with just some advanced | text-comparison algorithms. No? | | | | Best regards, | Dennis Schetinin | Sent with Sparrow

July 4, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] renggli mirror created on smalltalkhub

by Dale Henrichs

FS-Git will not monkey with the format of the data stored on disk ... it will be able to support FileTree format ... FS-Git gives you control over git from within your image ... direct commits to your git repository from the MonticelloBrowser for example... Dale ----- Original Message ----- | From: "Sven Van Caekenberghe" <sven(a)beta9.be> | To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr | Sent: Wednesday, July 4, 2012 6:25:21 AM | Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] renggli mirror created on smalltalkhub | | | On 04 Jul 2012, at 15:10, Camillo Bruni wrote: | | > For instance check the Pharo-2.0-Core fileout: | > https://github.com/PharoProject/pharo-core | | Cool! | | But that is a FileTree version with meta data, right ? | Not FS-Git ? | | |

July 4, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] renggli mirror created on smalltalkhub

by Dale Henrichs

embedded replies ----- Original Message ----- | From: "Torsten Bergmann" <astares(a)gmx.de> | To: pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr | Sent: Wednesday, July 4, 2012 6:02:06 AM | Subject: [Pharo-project] renggli mirror created on smalltalkhub | | >can you think of any feature we could have now we couldn't with Git? | | With Squeaksource/Monticello I'm currently able to have a web based | Smalltalk browser. So I dont have to fire up an image to | digg into other peoples code. | | I expect that could be done with Git hosted projects too - but | requires some work and another server providing the ST-IDE like | feeling. | So the "Smalltalk like user experience" is not available out of the | box on the usual hosting services. This is a small step backward. | GitHub has a feature called gh-pages[1] that allows you to define a project-specific web-site embedded in your project and hosted by GitHub. I leverage that feature to provide an Amber-based view of my GitHub projects[2]. Click on the `Browse the GitHubPage class` button to bring up the Amber Smalltalk browser:) ... hosted by GitHub and your browser. There is a web-based api[3] for accessing the the information in a github project that could be leveraged for providing Smalltalk brower for the packages in a GitHub project. Amber already understands the FileTree package structure[4], so it just a simple matter of programming ... in Smalltalk! [1] http://pages.github.com/ [2] http://dalehenrich.github.com/ [3] http://developer.github.com/ [4] https://github.com/CampSmalltalk/amber-cypress/blob/master/README.md | One thing is a must: the usual handling of code should be | preserved. As far as I understand this is the case even | with an GIT-based MC!? | | Some questions: | | 1. Usually Git requires a local git installation. | Is the Git-MC binding a pure ST solution | working on all platforms or does it require some native | support? For direct project development git/mercurial/svn would be required. To the extent that FS-Git[1] supports direct access to GitHub (I believe that level of support is planned) then no local installation would be required. I am adding GitHub support to Metacello (in the form of a Monticello Repository[2]) and it downloads a zipped copy of the directory structure from GitHub directly (using curl via OSProcess at the moment), so consumers of a project do not need to have git installed. [1] https://github.com/dalehenrich/FSGit [2] https://github.com/dalehenrich/metacello-work/tree/master/repository/Metace… | 2. Can I setup an own local repo in a simple directory similar | to Monticello or will it require some github stuff. The FileTree format is directory based and does not depend upon git in any way ... you can use svn, mercurial to manage the directory contents ... I am highlighting git/github because it is a complete solution, but over time I expect that svn support can be added as well as support for alternatives to github ... | 3. Will the local package cache still contain MCZ's? It should ... I'm not completely familiar with how packages get added to the package cache and it appears that the FileTree packages aren't magically added to the cache[1] ... [1] https://github.com/dalehenrich/filetree/issues/42 | | On the other hand hosting on file based versioning systems | would make source code indexable for search engines and | could raise Smalltalks place in the (stupid) TIOBE index ;) No kidding ... Smalltalk is currently #44[1] on GitHub and when I started in January it was #41... The HollingBerries project[2] is a good example of a way to get exposure to the 1 million developers on GitHub. I submitted my source as a single file, because I wanted it to be readable by non-Smalltalks ... if you call chunk format readable:) For my take, I avoided using conditionals ... #detect: was as close as I got:), I encourage other folks to contribute their approach. [1] https://github.com/languages/Smalltalk [2] https://github.com/apauley/HollingBerries | | I could imagine both: file based repos (Git) as well as | ST-only solutions as long as they work and reliable. | At the end of the day it's nothing more than a different | representation of code. | | An ST-only server side solution would at least allow for | easy customization and allow the community to adapt the hosting | to its needs. All good points! Dale

July 4, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Setting MC cache directory (was renggli mirror created on smalltalkhub)

by Marcus Denker

On Jul 4, 2012, at 6:02 PM, Camillo Bruni wrote: > > On 2012-07-04, at 17:36, Torsten Bergmann wrote: > >> Camillo wrote: >>> Here in lille almost everybody sets up symlinks to have a single shared >>> instance of a package-cache :) >> >> This should be part of the past if issue #6260 is integrated (see [1]) >> The monkey is here no very helpful for the fix - since it laments on >> test that were red before and sets the issue state to WorkNeeded. > > I'll put ben on it to see what the problem with the monkey is. > > We run tests twice, once before and once after loading to avoid issues with > existing failing tests, so this behavior is rather strange :) > Take care that the MC tests are not immune to be rune twice. (they are actually so brittle and complex that I sometimes think we should just delete them). Marcus -- Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de

July 4, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Setting MC cache directory (was renggli mirror created on smalltalkhub)

by Camillo Bruni

On 2012-07-04, at 17:36, Torsten Bergmann wrote: > Camillo wrote: >> Here in lille almost everybody sets up symlinks to have a single shared >> instance of a package-cache :) > > This should be part of the past if issue #6260 is integrated (see [1]) > The monkey is here no very helpful for the fix - since it laments on > test that were red before and sets the issue state to WorkNeeded. I'll put ben on it to see what the problem with the monkey is. We run tests twice, once before and once after loading to avoid issues with existing failing tests, so this behavior is rather strange :) > Any real person able to review and integrate it? > > There is also Marianos solution, see [2] > > Bye > T. > > [1] http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=6260 > [2] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/pipermail/pharo-project/2012-July/067083.html >

July 4, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] renggli mirror created on smalltalkhub

by Dale Henrichs

Yes, FileTree is actually modeling the Monticello definition structure on disk ... git does a very good job of tracking changes at the method level when methods are stored in separate files (it recognizes method renames) ... multiple files makes reading source on disk a bit awkward, but that's what we've got the Smalltalk image for ... how many people out there unzip their .mcz files to read Smalltalk source? Dale ----- Original Message ----- | From: "Frank Shearar" <frank.shearar(a)gmail.com> | To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr | Sent: Wednesday, July 4, 2012 6:01:19 AM | Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] renggli mirror created on smalltalkhub | | On 4 July 2012 13:52, Camillo Bruni <camillobruni(a)gmail.com> wrote: | >> Gitocello [1] takes this approach. While Tim Felgentreff started | >> it to | >> ease porting between Squeak and GNU Smalltalk, it works just fine | >> as a | >> new MC backend. I use it a fair bit [2][3][4]. | >> | >> Mind you I _haven't_ tried collaboration with it. If you had | >> conflicts | >> you would need to use git to address the conflicts, and you can | >> have | >> "inter-method" conflicts which are impossible with FileTree. (In | >> other | >> words, conflict markers could start in one method and end in | >> another.) | >> Probably the chunk format's date stuff would get annoying, as | >> well. | >> | >> | >> [1] https://github.com/timfel/gitocello | >> [2] https://github.com/frankshearar/Unification | >> [3] https://github.com/frankshearar/PersistentUnionFind | >> [4] https://github.com/frankshearar/Zippers | >> | >> frank | > | > ah nice, though you went for the one file per class approach. | > | > Which I think is not the best solution for pharo. | > For instance I want to replace the .changes / .sources file with | > one git repository which allows you to simply load new changes on | > demand and find methods with a minimal effort :) | | Well, "you" is "Tim", but sure. Yes. I like Gitocello's approach | because I can use GitHub without having 1000 mini files. I also like | FileTree's approach of method-per-file, because that's the natural | granularity of Smalltalk code. I seem to recall Sean DeNigris showing | a screenshot of vim that "stitched" multiple files together to solve | the "FileTree problem". And I'd say that yes, if you changed the | .changes file into a repo (which is an awesome idea), you'd | definitely | want method-per-file. You get method history for free! | | frank | |

July 4, 2012