May 2012 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo is exploding

by Igor Stasenko

This topic went to strange direction. By saying that Pharo exploding i was not suggested to do anything (like creating new mailing lists/stack overflow etc). What i do today is focusing on tasks which i should and filter all other stuff. It is of course a bit frustrating that i cannot track all cool changes and innovations, but i can ask anytime and get response, if i need something. So, no big deal. As for staying on bleeding edge or using/not using Pharo: nobody forcing people to do it. If you like it, you use it, if you don't - you don't. Personally, i prefer seeing "i don't use pharo because it moves too fast" over "i don't use pharo because it don't have things i need" -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

May 16, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo is exploding

by Sean P. DeNigris

StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote > > And can we have a private developer mailing-list :) > What the heck are you guys talking about?! Everyone take a deep breath... Here's the reality: One person who is a) not here to defend himself, and b) (allegedly) not using Pharo (allegedly) made an off-list comment that some developers (allegedly, possibly including himself) may find it jarring that in a year, one could find an unrecognizable latest version of Pharo. This, by the way, is true, even if it may not change our vision or plans. It may be unrecognizable. And, some developers *may* find that unsatisfactory. As we've already established, people do not like change. Now, none of this seems like a reason for all this fuss. It's wasting our time and energy, which is already at capacity making Pharo the system of our dreams. Specifically, I think a private developers list would hurt Pharo both psychologically and physically - we want as many eyes on the issues at hand as possible. Finally, the SO/separate-stackexchange-site/dev/users issue is a separate thing. If we're going to talk about mailing list discipline, let's stop hijacking people's threads. In closing: * Let's all get back to work. People will react emotionally to the massive progress (change) of Pharo. Duly noted, but it's in the damn manifesto ("Not backward compatible" [1]). * Maybe we can improve our communication process, both for the devs and users. Let's discuss that. [1] http://code.google.com/p/pharo/ -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-is-exploding-tp4630233p4630489.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

May 16, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo is exploding

by Bernardo Ezequiel Contreras

i agree with francois, you already have two mailing lists. one for developers and one for users On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 12:31 PM, Francois Stephany < tulipe.moutarde(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Yes let us create a core-dev private mailing-list. >> > > > Please don't. > > Just force people to use pharo-users when the question does not fit the > criteria for pharo-project. > >

May 16, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo is exploding

by Francois Stephany

> 99% of the changes affects infrastructure and/or replace old tools. Why your work should be affected by that? > I migrated Seaside from 1.3 to 1.4 in 15'... and the "problem" was not Seaside-Pharo incompatibilities, but to adapt configuration to not load OB (just not choose those packages in the metacello config) > Other frameworks like Magritte and Pier ran out of the box. (well... Magritte-Mophic needed a small adjust... and that was like 5') > For more examples, my personal projects (I submitted 3 slides yesterday for two of them), are usually complex projects (both for web and desktop) and I migrated all of them in less than a morning work (I needed to update/modify my metacello configurations for that). +1 Migrating to 1.4 was not really painful for me neither. The only "problem" was that i had a "startup.st" file lying next to my image that was invoked when launching the VM. In 1.4 it is loaded automatically by Pharo so it was executed twice and messed up my configuration :p I've seen more painful migration (Ruby 1.8->1.9 anyone?).

May 16, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo is exploding

by Francois Stephany

> Yes let us create a core-dev private mailing-list. Please don't. Just force people to use pharo-users when the question does not fit the criteria for pharo-project.

May 16, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] [Pharo-consortium] We need your Pharo successes

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

tx dam :) On May 16, 2012, at 5:06 PM, Damien Cassou wrote: > On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 5:03 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > Could you do a 3 slides presentation so that we can advertise it. > > 3 slides were already attached to the email > > -- > Damien Cassou > http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st > > "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them popular by not having them." James Iry

May 16, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo is exploding

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

On May 16, 2012, at 11:13 AM, Esteban Lorenzano wrote: > > 99% of the changes affects infrastructure and/or replace old tools. Why your work should be affected by that? > I migrated Seaside from 1.3 to 1.4 in 15'... and the "problem" was not Seaside-Pharo incompatibilities, but to adapt configuration to not load OB (just not choose those packages in the metacello config) > Other frameworks like Magritte and Pier ran out of the box. (well... Magritte-Mophic needed a small adjust... and that was like 5') > For more examples, my personal projects (I submitted 3 slides yesterday for two of them), are usually complex projects (both for web and desktop) and I migrated all of them in less than a morning work (I needed to update/modify my metacello configurations for that). > > So... as soon as I know... your feelings are just that: feelings. Not real facts. > And maybe those feelings are because we (as a community) are growing and we need to adapt our communication processes to match current status. But I think that's a good think, not a bad one. + 10000 May be you should paste that into a blog! And can we have a private developer mailing-list :) Because now our movement is questioned and I do not like that. Stef

May 16, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo is exploding

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

> > > >> I've recently read the book on UI usability [1], were the author >> states that after ten years of performing user evaluations and >> studies, he can assert that "people stick to the first thing that >> works". >> >> Maybe that's the reason behind this aversion to change. >> > Another idea is that it's an instantiation of the Innovators Dilemma? > > http://www.amazon.com/The-Innovators-Dilemma-Revolutionary-Essentials/dp/00… > > What he shows in the book is that if you ask your customers, they never want change. > But your competitor (especially new one) that does not listen to your customers and > does exactly what they where against will in the end take all your business. > > Because the people that where against all change have no problem to abandon the > unchaning thing when something better comes along. > > Requesting "no change" will *not* give you layality. "You did not want change so you > can't now use the better new stuff, you have to stay with the system you *requested* to > stay as it is". No. The exact same people that request "no change" will move to the better, > too. > > It's a real dilemma. This book is ridiculous too. Nobody will ever want crappy digital camera only the real stuff. Digital camera are non-sense nobody will ever buy them. I want better quality for my "argentic" camera. Stef

May 16, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo is exploding

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

We should stop talking for somebody that may not even use our system and write code. Stef

May 16, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo is exploding

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

>> > > Part of that is that I started the project "tweet something about Pharo every day". > some 15 months? ago... my idea was that we need to make public what > happens because most people's perception was : Smalltak is dead. > > If people want I can stop. YES PLEASE STOP THIS WAS THE MOST RIDICULOUS EVER IDEA. IMAGINE people could think that we are not dead... >> Not time to stabilize nothing. > > Pharo 1.4 is frozen. We just fix bugs. The same with 1.3. Or even 1.2... > >> Is needed such acceleration? ... My point is, I'm trying to move a >> business with Smalltalk and the acceleration of Pharo is well know by >> me (from other companies) and sooner or later, impact in my job and >> I'm a very LITTLE software house can't migrate my products all the >> time." >> > You should *not* migrate. That's the idea. Just as one uses a (in the future > unchanging Cuis, I am sorry to hear that), you can use an unchaning Pharo 1.4, > or 1.3. > Only when your project needs it, (because you actively with manpower develop it > for a longer time), you can move to a new version. > >> We simply have to accept that some developers can have this feelings >> and try to find a way how to limit it. I think that some official >> Pharo blog (maybe written by Esteban) would be very helpful. Some kind >> of not very extensive technical information source that will help >> people to stay in touch with Pharo progress. That will explain what is >> being changed in Pharo and why. I think that developers than will see >> the changes like positive not as alien ones. >> > > What I think is problematic: Peopler are against Change. But when somone > nevertheless does it, build a great system, the same people that did not allow > us to move will gladly abandon the old system for the new system. > Cuis is a good example. According to the Philosophy of German, it should not exist. > > Maybe we should partition the *mailinglist* by stable and unstable? > This way people using the stable don't see the noise and can focusâ¦ Yes let us create a core-dev private mailing-list. > > Marcus > > -- > Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de > >

May 16, 2012