May 2012 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] PBE1 update to Pharo 1.4 Re: Some Newbie problems

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

On 06 May 2012, at 09:06, Ben Coman wrote: > The new book focuses on different issues than the old book. It would be sad to let the old book languish entirely and end up with a poor first impression for newcomers, so I am willing to participate in updating it to Pharo 1.4. I am getting a lot from Pharo and this is something I can contribute. I think it fair the main developers continue with implementing and documenting the advanced features, while the community maintains the more established things. A quick scan pegs this effort at updating about 170 images, plus hopefully a minimal amount of text. How would I proceed with this? This would be a **really** good idea/initiative ! Sven

May 6, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Can OSProcess functionality be implemented using FFI instead of plugin?

by Nicolas Cellier

2012/5/6 Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com>: > On 5 May 2012 18:00, Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 6:23 PM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> Hi, David, all >>> >>> i just want to know, if we can use FFI calls, for implementing an >>> OSProcessPlugin functionality (or at least most of it). >>> and if there parts which is hard to implement, i would like to know >>> what and why. >> >> >> Once we have the threaded FFI and the threaded VM then yes, because one can >> block one thread in a read without blocking the entire VM. Â But without the >> threaded VM one needs asynchronous i/o. >> > yes, but nobody said, that i can't use non-blocking i/o. > > the main advantage which i see for using FFI is being able to deal > with everything at language level. > so, bugs can be fixed quickly, things can be improved more easily etc etc.. > and the main disadvantage is, of course, speed. > No. The main disadvantage is to expose the complexity of outside world at user face, when it was once hidden under the VM carpet. In the VM, complexity is handled with the "right tools" (cough...) #include machine_specific_stuff.h driven by #ifdef why_the_hell_is_it_so_complex ;) and include paths library paths ldconfig etc... It's of course cough-able because this complexity then spread into m4 macros for configure scripts and other such niceties. Sure, - when the VM is not able to handle outside world zoo because a lack of manpower, and because the outside world changed too fast while we were sleeping happy in our mickey world, - or if we want more than least common denominator between several underlying platforms, then yes, it might be better to adopt your strategy, because we can get more manpower at image level than at VM level... However, it's a kind of pact with the devil: we get the power at the price of introducing the #ifdef hell in the image. Sure, with a good object model, we might think that it will be easier to handle such complexity. But then we're just ignoring the efforts of hordes of programmers maintaining this shit, and redo all in image. I'm not sure that it will be sustainable... Unless of course we focus on a single platform. Your work is very important, because at least, it will enable powerful single platform extensions. But as you see, I just wonder how it would help us to continue providing ubiquity... Nicolas >>> >>> If you want to ask, why one would want to do this.. the answer is simple: >>> we stated previously, that we want to reduce the VM complexity by >>> implementing things at language side, when it possible, >>> leaving only key parts to VM. >>> This is the main reason why i consider implementing OSProcess using >>> purely FFI, not because of quality of OSProcessPlugin >>> implementation etc. >>> >>> -- >>> Best regards, >>> Igor Stasenko. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> best, >> Eliot >> > > > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko. >

May 6, 2012

[Pharo-project] PBE1 update to Pharo 1.4 Re: Some Newbie problems

by Ben Coman

StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > welcome peter > > >> I'm trying to work my way through the Pharo by example book on my Ubuntu 12.04 LTS box. Unfortunately, things in the book don't look like they do on my setup. For example, I can't work out what the key combination is to get the 'Morphic Halo'. I can get it from a menu, but not from a key press combination. >> > > on mac it is > option + cmd + shift > and you click on the morph > > > >> Also, calling: >> >> BouncingAtomsMorph new openInWorld >> >> doesn't work. I just get an error message saying that there is no such object. >> > > The BouncingAtomsMorph is not loaded in the new images. > > >> I thought these problems might be due to me having the standard image instead of the Pharo by Example image. So I downloaded that image but when I call Pharo on that image: >> >> $ ./pharo ../Resources/PBE.image >> >> I just get a segmentation fault. >> > > The image of the book is an old one and you should get (may be I'm wrong) an old vm for example it should work on a Squeak3.9 VM. > > >> I'm a complete newbie (but an experienced programmer in a variety of OO and other languages), so if anyone could shed any light on this, I'd be very grateful. >> > > Let us know if you have any other problems. This is try true that such problems are annoying but we do not have the resources to > write a new book, develop pharo and maintain the old book. > The new book focuses on different issues than the old book. It would be sad to let the old book languish entirely and end up with a poor first impression for newcomers, so I am willing to participate in updating it to Pharo 1.4. I am getting a lot from Pharo and this is something I can contribute. I think it fair the main developers continue with implementing and documenting the advanced features, while the community maintains the more established things. A quick scan pegs this effort at updating about 170 images, plus hopefully a minimal amount of text. How would I proceed with this? cheers -ben > Did you have a look at the pharocast because this is also a good way to learn. > > Stef > >> Thanks >> >> Peter >> -- >> Peter Bradley >> peredur.net >> > > > >

May 6, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Artefact - a PDF framework

by Ben Coman

Stephan Eggermont wrote: > Hi Olivier, > > I've taken a look at the state of Artefact. Don't you think it would be much less work > to port Christian Haider's work to Pharo? The namespace extensions to ring should > be helpful to make two-way changes from both the VW and Pharo side. > > Stephan Eggermont > > Are there any examples on using the Ring namespace extensions ?

May 6, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Can OSProcess functionality be implemented using FFI instead of plugin?

by Igor Stasenko

On 5 May 2012 18:00, Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 6:23 PM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Hi, David, all >> >> i just want to know, if we can use FFI calls, for implementing an >> OSProcessPlugin functionality (or at least most of it). >> and if there parts which is hard to implement, i would like to know >> what and why. > > > Once we have the threaded FFI and the threaded VM then yes, because one can > block one thread in a read without blocking the entire VM. Â But without the > threaded VM one needs asynchronous i/o. > yes, but nobody said, that i can't use non-blocking i/o. the main advantage which i see for using FFI is being able to deal with everything at language level. so, bugs can be fixed quickly, things can be improved more easily etc etc.. and the main disadvantage is, of course, speed. >> >> If you want to ask, why one would want to do this.. the answer is simple: >> we stated previously, that we want to reduce the VM complexity by >> implementing things at language side, when it possible, >> leaving only key parts to VM. >> This is the main reason why i consider implementing OSProcess using >> purely FFI, not because of quality of OSProcessPlugin >> implementation etc. >> >> -- >> Best regards, >> Igor Stasenko. >> > > > > -- > best, > Eliot > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

May 6, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Some Newbie problems

by Sean P. DeNigris

Peredur wrote > > I'm trying to work my way through the Pharo by example book on my Ubuntu > 12.04 LTS box. > This comes up every so often, so here's a one-click image adapted from the Pharo 1.4 one click, but with the Jenkins Stack VMs, briefly tested on Debian and OS X... I will host it temporarily at: http://seandenigris.com/files/PBE-1.0-one-click.zip Maybe someone will test in on Windows... and maybe someone will add it to the PBE site instead of the plain image so our new users will not suffer so much :) HTH, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Some-Newbie-problems-tp4611608p4611923.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

May 5, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Some Newbie problems

by Peredur

El 05/05/12 21:12, StÃ©phane Ducasse escribiÃ³: > welcome peter Thank you >> I'm trying to work my way through the Pharo by example book on my Ubuntu 12.04 LTS box. Unfortunately, things in the book don't look like they do on my setup. For example, I can't work out what the key combination is to get the 'Morphic Halo'. I can get it from a menu, but not from a key press combination. > on mac it is > option + cmd + shift > and you click on the morph > Doesn't help a lot when you're not on a Mac :-) But it's not insuperable since I can get to it via the menus. I did try all the combinations I could think of, though (various combinations of [Shift], [Ctrl], [Alt], [Meta] and left and right clicks). Nothing seemed to work on Ubuntu 12, I'm afraid. >> Also, calling: >> >> BouncingAtomsMorph new openInWorld >> >> doesn't work. I just get an error message saying that there is no such object. > The BouncingAtomsMorph is not loaded in the new images. OK. Well. As long as it doesn't become crucial to the business of learning how to use SmallTalk and Pharo, I guess I can ignore the problem. For now, at least. >> ... >> $ ./pharo ../Resources/PBE.image >> >> I just get a segmentation fault. > The image of the book is an old one and you should get (may be I'm wrong) an old vm for example it should work on a Squeak3.9 VM. Again, I guess as long as it's not crucial, I can just carry on. >> I'm a complete newbie (but an experienced programmer in a variety of OO and other languages), so if anyone could shed any light on this, I'd be very grateful. > Let us know if you have any other problems. This is try true that such problems are annoying but we do not have the resources to > write a new book, develop pharo and maintain the old book. I sympathise with that, although it can be a bit self defeating in that if the docs aren't good and up-to-date it can put people off... Also, of course, the longer you leave things the worse it gets. The revision job just becomes bigger and bigger. > Did you have a look at the pharocast because this is also a good way to learn. I'll take a look. Thanks. Cheers Peter -- *Peter Bradley* peredur.net <http://www.peredur.net>

May 5, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Some Newbie problems

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Fixed now it loads well in 1.4 Stef On May 5, 2012, at 10:47 PM, Philippe Back wrote: > The Atoms and other friends are available on a monticello repository. It is something like morphic-examples. It was squeaksource I think. > > Philippe > > > EnvoyÃ© depuis un mobile Samsung > > > > Peredur <peredur(a)peredur.net> a Ã©crit : > > > Hi, > > I'm trying to work my way through the Pharo by example book on my Ubuntu 12.04 LTS box. Unfortunately, things in the book don't look like they do on my setup. For example, I can't work out what the key combination is to get the 'Morphic Halo'. I can get it from a menu, but not from a key press combination. > > Also, calling: > > BouncingAtomsMorph new openInWorld > > doesn't work. I just get an error message saying that there is no such object. > > I thought these problems might be due to me having the standard image instead of the Pharo by Example image. So I downloaded that image but when I call Pharo on that image: > > $ ./pharo ../Resources/PBE.image > > I just get a segmentation fault. > > I'm a complete newbie (but an experienced programmer in a variety of OO and other languages), so if anyone could shed any light on this, I'd be very grateful. > > Thanks > > Peter > -- > Peter Bradley > peredur.net

May 5, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Some Newbie problems

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Yes probably in PharoNonCorePackages in the near future we will clean all this mess :) MCHttpRepository location: 'http://www.squeaksource.com/PharoNonCorePackages' user: 'sd' password: '' Apparently some examples are depending from SketchMorph. I'm trying to have a look and cleaning them. Stef > The Atoms and other friends are available on a monticello repository. It is something like morphic-examples. It was squeaksource I think. > > Philippe > > > EnvoyÃ© depuis un mobile Samsung > > > > Peredur <peredur(a)peredur.net> a Ã©crit : > > > Hi, > > I'm trying to work my way through the Pharo by example book on my Ubuntu 12.04 LTS box. Unfortunately, things in the book don't look like they do on my setup. For example, I can't work out what the key combination is to get the 'Morphic Halo'. I can get it from a menu, but not from a key press combination. > > Also, calling: > > BouncingAtomsMorph new openInWorld > > doesn't work. I just get an error message saying that there is no such object. > > I thought these problems might be due to me having the standard image instead of the Pharo by Example image. So I downloaded that image but when I call Pharo on that image: > > $ ./pharo ../Resources/PBE.image > > I just get a segmentation fault. > > I'm a complete newbie (but an experienced programmer in a variety of OO and other languages), so if anyone could shed any light on this, I'd be very grateful. > > Thanks > > Peter > -- > Peter Bradley > peredur.net

May 5, 2012

[Pharo-project] RE : Some Newbie problems

by Philippe Back

The Atoms and other friends are available on a monticello repository. It is something like morphic-examples. It was squeaksource I think. Philippe EnvoyÃ© depuis un mobile Samsung Peredur <peredur(a)peredur.net> a Ã©crit : Hi, I'm trying to work my way through the Pharo by example book on my Ubuntu 12.04 LTS box. Unfortunately, things in the book don't look like they do on my setup. For example, I can't work out what the key combination is to get the 'Morphic Halo'. I can get it from a menu, but not from a key press combination. Also, calling: BouncingAtomsMorph new openInWorld doesn't work. I just get an error message saying that there is no such object. I thought these problems might be due to me having the standard image instead of the Pharo by Example image. So I downloaded that image but when I call Pharo on that image: $ ./pharo ../Resources/PBE.image I just get a segmentation fault. I'm a complete newbie (but an experienced programmer in a variety of OO and other languages), so if anyone could shed any light on this, I'd be very grateful. Thanks Peter -- *Peter Bradley* peredur.net <http://www.peredur.net>

May 5, 2012