February 2012 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Netstyle experience (was Do not feed the trolls)

by Hilaire Fernandes

Le 22/02/2012 10:34, Janko MivÅ¡ek a Ã©crit : > I agree completely that web based techologies are where we should go > because we have advantage here with Smalltalk while for any kind of GUI > we are off. Including for mobile apps. Making a web app and package it > as a standalone mobile app is much easier than making any decently > looking GUI app with Pharo. Adding only multitouch is not enough, entire > look&feel is what counts. Sometime I wonder if writting application like DrGeo could be reasonnably doeable with html5? Ideally I would like to write Smalltalk code transated to the host language plateform. Whatever, html5 are really desktop application downloaded at runtime. We are still moving in circle since 40 years. -- Dr. Geo -- http://www.drgeo.eu

Feb. 22, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Netstyle experience (was Do not feed the trolls)

by Christoph Wysseier

Hi Guido Am 22.02.12 10:06, schrieb Guido Stepken: > Tablet apps will very soon even dominate the desktop market! I agree! > This increasing market with hundreds of millions hardware units is > completely lost for Smalltalkers, once again. I disagree! ;) It might be lost for standalone applications, right. But this is true for a lot of other technologies too, like the mentioned Adobe Flash, which also shows the difficulties of such a strategy. But, IMHO, the door to this market for Smalltalkers is wide open as long as you insist to use web-technologies (HTML5, AJAX, SVG et. al.) where Pharo and frameworks like Seaside or Aida/Web offer you a wide range of possibilities to develop platform-independent, innovative applications. Also Adobe justified their decision to drop Flash with the evalution of the future of these technologies. I am convinced that the future of such ($$$) business or community applications will be the browser. Just my 5 cents and may of course be completely wrong. Cheers, Chris

Feb. 22, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Netstyle experience (was Do not feed the trolls)

by Janko MivÅ¡ek

S, Christoph Wysseier piÅ¡e: > StÃ©phane Ducasse: >> I'm convinced that having support for multitouch event/ genie and >> others works (for iPad = $$$$) is important. > Without pretending to know the future, IMHO standalone apps for tablets > and mobile will disappear over time. Out of my perspective it would be > far more important to move in the direction of web-based technologies > also in this area. Looking at the success stories of Pharo and our own > strategy I do not see the advantages of having multi-touch support for > the development of such applications. I agree completely that web based techologies are where we should go because we have advantage here with Smalltalk while for any kind of GUI we are off. Including for mobile apps. Making a web app and package it as a standalone mobile app is much easier than making any decently looking GUI app with Pharo. Adding only multitouch is not enough, entire look&feel is what counts. And I don't see a change to better in near future on GUI field. It is better to concentrate improving Look&Feel (User Experience) of development tools and overal stability of Pharo including fundamental redesign of internals, those which cause instabilities. To prepare Pharo for server based deployments and for web services of different kinds, from web apps to REST API services. And a work the Gemstone/VMware guys are doing adding Smalltalk to Cloud Foudry [1] is what we should support as much as possible, this is the future. [1] Adding Smalltalk to Cloud Foundry http://programminggems.wordpress.com/2012/02/17/adding-smalltalk-to-cloud-f… Best regards Janko -- Janko MivÅ¡ek Aida/Web Smalltalk Web Application Server http://www.aidaweb.si

Feb. 22, 2012

[Pharo-project] DrGeo on ARM Android

by Hilaire Fernandes

Dimitry and I are working on the DrGeo port to the Android ARM Operating System. DrGeo on Pharo with Stack VM proves to be smooth and neat to use. http://www.drgeo.eu/screenshot-video Thanks -- Dr. Geo -- http://www.drgeo.eu

Feb. 22, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Netstyle experience (was Do not feed the trolls)

by Milan Mimica

Pharo is an IDE. IDEs don't run on tablets. On 22 February 2012 10:06, Guido Stepken <gstepken(a)googlemail.com> wrote: > Hi Christoph! > > Jobs dropped FLASH for several important reasons: > > 1. Too much polling in there. Processor load was high, eating up batteries. > 2. Flash games with "onMouseOver" can't run on tablets. > 3. Event model was so oldfashioned, that Adobe decided to drop the VM. > > FLASH was the most successful virtual machine ever, hundreds of thousands > of applications, billions of users, dominating the whole market. > > Dead within only 2 years! Severe marketing and technical design mistakes > by the Adobe management, IMHO. > > Pharo suffers similar problems: GUI is not tablet-ready. Compare to > Android 4.0: Android has joined the 2.3 line for mobiles with tablet line > and has invested much much brainpower in finding out, how apps can be > designed, that they can comfortably be used on different resolutions, > portrait as well as landscape. Well done IMHO, even suited for desktop apps. > > Pharo also has too much polling code, is eating up batteries as well. > > As long as Apple does not allow fullsized interpreters in Appstore, there > is definitely no chance ever for Pharo to be brought onto tablet. > > I see no chances for Pharo on ARM, Tablets, whatever ... never ever! > > This increasing market with hundreds of millions hardware units is > completely lost for Smalltalkers, once again. > > Tablet apps will very soon even dominate the desktop market! > > regards, Guido Stepken > Am 22.02.2012 09:39 schrieb "Christoph Wysseier" <c.wysseier(a)netstyle.ch > >: > > Dear Stef >> >> Am 22.02.12 08:32, schrieb StÃ©phane Ducasse: >> >>> I'm convinced that having support for multitouch event/ genie and others >>> works (for iPad = $$$$) is important. >>> >> >> Without pretending to know the future, IMHO standalone apps for tablets >> and mobile will disappear over time. Out of my perspective it would be far >> more important to move in the direction of web-based technologies also in >> this area. Looking at the success stories of Pharo and our own strategy I >> do not see the advantages of having multi-touch support for the development >> of such applications. >> >> Or did I misinterpret your intention? >> >> Cheers, >> >> Chris >> >> -- Milan Mimica http://sparklet.sf.net

Feb. 22, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Netstyle experience (was Do not feed the trolls)

by Guido Stepken

Hi Christoph! Jobs dropped FLASH for several important reasons: 1. Too much polling in there. Processor load was high, eating up batteries. 2. Flash games with "onMouseOver" can't run on tablets. 3. Event model was so oldfashioned, that Adobe decided to drop the VM. FLASH was the most successful virtual machine ever, hundreds of thousands of applications, billions of users, dominating the whole market. Dead within only 2 years! Severe marketing and technical design mistakes by the Adobe management, IMHO. Pharo suffers similar problems: GUI is not tablet-ready. Compare to Android 4.0: Android has joined the 2.3 line for mobiles with tablet line and has invested much much brainpower in finding out, how apps can be designed, that they can comfortably be used on different resolutions, portrait as well as landscape. Well done IMHO, even suited for desktop apps. Pharo also has too much polling code, is eating up batteries as well. As long as Apple does not allow fullsized interpreters in Appstore, there is definitely no chance ever for Pharo to be brought onto tablet. I see no chances for Pharo on ARM, Tablets, whatever ... never ever! This increasing market with hundreds of millions hardware units is completely lost for Smalltalkers, once again. Tablet apps will very soon even dominate the desktop market! regards, Guido Stepken Am 22.02.2012 09:39 schrieb "Christoph Wysseier" <c.wysseier(a)netstyle.ch>: > Dear Stef > > Am 22.02.12 08:32, schrieb StÃ©phane Ducasse: > >> I'm convinced that having support for multitouch event/ genie and others >> works (for iPad = $$$$) is important. >> > > Without pretending to know the future, IMHO standalone apps for tablets > and mobile will disappear over time. Out of my perspective it would be far > more important to move in the direction of web-based technologies also in > this area. Looking at the success stories of Pharo and our own strategy I > do not see the advantages of having multi-touch support for the development > of such applications. > > Or did I misinterpret your intention? > > Cheers, > > Chris > >

Feb. 22, 2012

[Pharo-project] shadows problem with 1.4

by Hilaire Fernandes

A change somewhere broke the Morph shadow feature in 1.4. Gary et al. do you have any idea? See http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5314 Hilaire -- Dr. Geo -- http://www.drgeo.eu

Feb. 22, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Proposal: coverage tests

by Pavel Krivanek

This is the way how to get the the source code that belongs to uncovered bytecodes (expecting "trace" from the previous code) class := Time. selector := #print24:showSeconds:on:. m := class >> selector. usedBytecodes := ((trace at: class) at: selector ifAbsent: Set new). allBytecodes := Set new. m symbolicLinesDo: [:pc :lineForPC | allBytecodes add: pc ]. unusedBytecodes := allBytecodes copyWithoutAll: usedBytecodes. dm := m debuggerMap. source := (class sourceCodeAt: selector) asText. unusedBytecodes do: [:pc | range := dm rangeForPC: pc contextIsActiveContext: false. source makeBoldFrom: range first to: range last.]. source asMorph openInWindow. Cheers, -- Pavel On Tue, Feb 21, 2012 at 4:03 PM, Pavel Krivanek <pavel.krivanek(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hi, > > what about to intrroduce tests that will test coverage of tests? Some > improved version of the code below. Are there some tool for Smalltalk > showing uncovered lines of code? There are such tools in Java world > :-) One little problem is that this code do not work on Linux because > of a VM error that cause test failures on CI server too. > > Cheers, > Â Pavel > > | class test trace classTrace result Â | > > class := Time. > test := TimeTest. > > trace := Dictionary new. > > thisContext runSimulated: [test suite run] Â contextAtEachStep: [ :current | > Â Â Â Â | cls sel methods bytecodes | > Â Â Â Â cls := current method methodClass. > Â Â Â Â sel := current method selector. > Â Â Â Â methods := trace at: cls ifAbsentPut: Dictionary new. > Â Â Â Â bytecodes := methods at: sel ifAbsentPut: Set new. > Â Â Â Â bytecodes add: current pc.] > > trace . > > result := String streamContents: [:s | > > classTrace := trace at: class ifAbsent: nil. > classTrace > Â Â Â Â ifNil: [ > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â s nextPutAll: 'Class ', class name, ' not called'; cr. ] > Â Â Â Â ifNotNil: [ > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â s nextPutAll: class name; cr. > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â class selectorsDo: [:sel | > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â | m usedBytecodes allBytecodes | > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â m := class >> sel. > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â usedBytecodes := (classTrace at: sel ifAbsent: Set new) size. > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â allBytecodes := 0. > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â m symbolicLinesDo: [:pc :lineForPC | allBytecodes := allBytecodes + 1 ].. > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â s tab; nextPutAll: sel; nextPutAll: ' - '; nextPutAll: > (usedBytecodes Â / Â allBytecodes * 100) asFloat asString; nextPutAll: > '%'; cr. ]]. > ]. > result..

Feb. 22, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Proposal: coverage tests

by GÃ¶ran Krampe

Hi all! I seem to recall a small discussion with Peter Hugosson-Miller at ESUG in Brest (walking to lunch :)) in which he told me a bit about the tests they used where he worked. IIRC a LOT of them were indeed "meta tests" that were testing properties of the source code itself (metrics, lints etc). Peter, any more ideas in this direction you can share? If coupled with "background execution" (or hey, in a forked image through OSProcess so we don't mess up the one we work in) and immediate feedback in browser tools this is "winner stuff". regards, GÃ¶ran

Feb. 22, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] "Do not feed the trolls"

by Christoph Wysseier

Dear Stef, Am 21.02.12 21:26, schrieb StÃ©phane Ducasse: > Thanks a lot Christophe! > I love your trust :) > It puts such responsibility on us but we accept it and we will do our best to make sure you can deliver > robust and cool applications. Trust is the best motivation... :) It was not my intention to put pressure to you or the community. I believe that Pharo improved our situation a lot in the last years and that the project is on the right track. For us the lively and very intelligent community that built and maintains a stable Open Source Smalltalk IDE for the development of (web-based) commercial application is the most important thing. If you listen to the wishes of commercial users and we appreciate and support your work then Pharo will become even more successful, attractive and fun. Cheers, Chris

Feb. 22, 2012