February 2012 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] [Pharo-users] pharo & arduino

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

**THANKS** Stef On Feb 22, 2012, at 9:14 PM, Ricardo Moran wrote: > Hi everybody, > > If you happen to have an arduino this might be interesting for you: http://tecnodacta.com.ar/gira/2012/02/pharo-and-arduino/. > > Also, you probably already know, but I noticed while testing this that FFI doesn't work in the latest Windows VM published in the Pharo website. In case it helps, the latest CogVM published here works fine: http://www.mirandabanda.org/files/Cog/VM/ > > Cheers, > Richo > > On Tue, Feb 21, 2012 at 5:32 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > since this will interest some of you :) > > Begin forwarded message: > >> From: Ricardo Moran <richi.moran(a)gmail.com> >> Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] pharo & arduino >> Date: February 21, 2012 6:33:28 PM GMT+01:00 >> To: GÃ©rard Duteil <linedubeth(a)free.fr> >> Cc: StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> >> >> >> On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 8:28 PM, GÃ©rard Duteil <linedubeth(a)free.fr> wrote: >> Bonsoir Ã tous, >> >> Je ne savais que l'on pouvais faire tourner les physical etoys dans pharo, j'utilisais Squeak >> >> >> Plus gÃ©nÃ©ralement je cherche des liens sur les pic, les microcontroleurs et une interface graphique en glisser deposer qui me permette de dialoguer avec de l'Ã©lectronique sous linux. Sous win j'ai des outils mais je prefere l'utilisation de gnu/linux >> >> je suis tombÃ© sur un lien ancien smalltalk/pic mais j'aimerais bien trouver un projet plus rÃ©cent et maintenu. >> >> Je vais donc essayer le lien merci >> >> et je viens de retomber sur le lien qui m'a fait redÃ©couvrir les etoys >> >> Merci >> Au plaisir de vous lire >> >> Hello, >> >> Hi GÃ©rard, >> >> I don't know that physical etoys runs in pharo. I use Squeak and install pe in ubuntu. >> >> Well, the "Etoys" part of Physical Etoys doesn't run on Pharo, but all the core classes should work fine. I don't know exactly what you need so let me tell you what we did: >> We made a very simple model that lets you communicate with your Arduino using a firmware like Firmata, or a simple firmware made by us (see the class comment of the class Arduino for code examples). We also made a very rudimentary C code generator to translate Smalltalk into C and we linked it to the avr-gcc/avrdude so now we can program the Arduino board without leaving Smalltalk, which is very cool. Unfortunately, the translator is still very limited (I think even more limited than Slang) but we are using it to translate the etoys scripts and it's good enough for our purposes. >> >> >> I search more links about pic, electronics and gui with drag and drop to program this electronic's component for kids. I prefer use gnu/linux. >> >> If you're interested in a graphical interface for kids maybe you'll be better working with the Physical Etoys version instead of using the sources with Pharo. FWIW, making a graphical interface shouldn't be difficult at all but the Etoys interface is being used with kids and it's quite good IMHO. >> >> >> But i don't know your project i use your link >> sorry http://tecnodacta.com.ar/gira/projects/physical-etoys/ is my last tool >> >> >> You'll find there the latest version of Physical Etoys, we are soon to release a new version with a lot of improvements. So stay tuned! :) >> >> >> tanks too much for your proposition. sorry i don't speak spanish language but if necessary i transfert your message. >> >> >> I have found a commercial tool s4a. Do you know this? >> >> Yes, in fact I had the luck to meet its creators in person during the ESUG 2010 conference. S4A is a great tool, and the Scratch interface is very nice. You should definitely give it atry. >> >> >> i have download this http://seaside.citilab.eu/S4ADev.zip >> >> but i'm a beginner. >> >> i'm interresting by pharo because it's le lastest program developping, isn'it? >> >> I'm not sure what that means. We usually don't use Pharo to develop Physical Etoys because, you know, Etoys doesn't run in Pharo. However, I would like to ensure at least some of our project works in Pharo. If I can, I'll test it this week and maybe I'll write a ConfigurationOfArduino. Would that help? >> >> Cheers, >> Richo >> >> >> >> thanks a lot >> >> >> >> >> Le 20/02/2012 09:16, StÃ©phane Ducasse a Ã©crit : >> thanks for you answer >> I hope that you are going well. >> >> Stef >> >> On Feb 20, 2012, at 12:15 AM, Ricardo Moran wrote: >> >> Hi Stef, >> >> You can look at the Arduino repository at squeaksource (http://www.squeaksource.com/Arduino.html) >> Everything but the "Arduino-Etoys*" packages should work fine in Pharo. At least they worked the last time I checked but a lot has changed since then, so let me know if you encounter any problem, I'll be happy to help. >> >> Cheers, >> Richo >> >> On Sat, Feb 18, 2012 at 6:15 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse<stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: >> Hi ricardo >> >> do you have some information how to connect pharo to arduino? >> Thanks in advance. >> >> Stef >> >> Begin forwarded message: >> >> From: GÃ©rard Duteil<linedubeth(a)free.fr> >> Subject: [Pharo-users] pharo& arduino >> >> Date: February 18, 2012 9:42:02 AM GMT+01:00 >> To: pharo-users(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> Reply-To: A friendly place where any question about pharo is welcome<pharo-users(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr> >> >> Hello,,,I search info about this subject., >> ,I'm interesting by picaxe also,,,, >> A beginner in object programmation,,, >> I wait the 25th may,,, >> Thanks in advance. >> >> >> >> >> >> > >

Feb. 22, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] DrGeo on ARM Android

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Hilaire are you planning for an iPad version? STef

Feb. 22, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] New IDE alternative (was Misc. newbie questions)

by Frank Shearar

On 18 February 2012 22:47, Craig Latta <craig(a)netjam.org> wrote: > > Hi-- > >> > (It makes me angry that I can sometimes feel more productive >> > writing Ruby in Emacs than in Squeak/Pharo! Why can I not have BOTH >> > a world-class text editor AND live in an image (when I choose to)?)) >> >> This is why I want Coral. > > Â Â Another approach is to just make Smalltalk appear as an entire > filesystem. Then any editor can speak to it like any other hard disk. > For an example (using WebDAV), see [1]. You'll recall me threatening to write an IntelliJ plugin to display such a filesystem, a while back. But I think such a plugin would be missing the point. What I want is to be able to see a lot more source on my screen than one method at a time. Do you remember the Whisker Browser a few years ago? It let you view and edit multiple methods at a time, across multiple classes. That was pretty neat. frank > -C > > [1] http://tinyurl.com/7j26wk6 (thiscontext.wordpress.com) > > -- > Craig Latta > www.netjam.org/resume > +31 6 2757 7177 > + 1 415 287 3547 > > >

Feb. 22, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Netstyle experience (was Do not feed the trolls)

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

On Feb 22, 2012, at 1:58 PM, Norbert Hartl wrote: > > Am 22.02.2012 um 13:28 schrieb GermÃ¡n Arduino: > >> Example: xmlrpc died before to born, worked only in 1.1.1, now I must find time to update it to zinc and 1.3 but with the fear that again will not work in 1.4. > > What are your building blocks except http and xml? If you were working on 1.1.1 then xml parser moved quite a bit and zinc appeared on the scene. The changes to adopt xml parser should be minimal. Zinc provides a facade that mimicks backward compatibility. So you could have an easy start. But to be honest the situation is soooo much better with having zinc that you might save some time in development if you use zinc straight away. > And about 1.4: Yes, it moves a lot but zinc and xml do not. Xml is stable since months and the change rate in zinc is also dropping. So you might expect them to be available until...let's say...3 months from now. :) Ok, just kidding, I think the will stay similar for quite some time. Exactly. Doru got **all** the moose tools in 1.4 and some of them like glamour rely a lot on UI changes. I doubt that xmlrpc got any impacted on Morphic change. We do not change XML (but the XML maintainers did) and Zinc is just much much much better than the old system so it should be not difficult to adapt especially if you ask. Stef

Feb. 22, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Netstyle experience (was Do not feed the trolls)

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

> Pharo is an IDE. IDEs don't run on tablets. I hope to prove you the inverse. Because with a small core without browser you can build what you want. Way before the iPad, tansel ervasas sent to me a small squeak image with a simulation for a device ordering pizza and it was with pop up keys like iPad. They built it in one week and they could have ship it on the device. Politics made sure that it had to be written in Smalltalk. But open your eyes. Pharo is much more than an ide. Stef > On 22 February 2012 10:06, Guido Stepken <gstepken(a)googlemail.com> wrote: > Hi Christoph! > > Jobs dropped FLASH for several important reasons: > > 1. Too much polling in there. Processor load was high, eating up batteries. > 2. Flash games with "onMouseOver" can't run on tablets. > 3. Event model was so oldfashioned, that Adobe decided to drop the VM. > > FLASH was the most successful virtual machine ever, hundreds of thousands of applications, billions of users, dominating the whole market. > > Dead within only 2 years! Severe marketing and technical design mistakes by the Adobe management, IMHO. > > Pharo suffers similar problems: GUI is not tablet-ready. Compare to Android 4.0: Android has joined the 2.3 line for mobiles with tablet line and has invested much much brainpower in finding out, how apps can be designed, that they can comfortably be used on different resolutions, portrait as well as landscape. Well done IMHO, even suited for desktop apps. > > Pharo also has too much polling code, is eating up batteries as well. > > As long as Apple does not allow fullsized interpreters in Appstore, there is definitely no chance ever for Pharo to be brought onto tablet. > > I see no chances for Pharo on ARM, Tablets, whatever ... never ever! > > This increasing market with hundreds of millions hardware units is completely lost for Smalltalkers, once again. > > Tablet apps will very soon even dominate the desktop market! > > regards, Guido Stepken > Am 22.02.2012 09:39 schrieb "Christoph Wysseier" <c.wysseier(a)netstyle.ch>: > > Dear Stef > > Am 22.02.12 08:32, schrieb StÃ©phane Ducasse: > I'm convinced that having support for multitouch event/ genie and others works (for iPad = $$$$) is important. > > Without pretending to know the future, IMHO standalone apps for tablets and mobile will disappear over time. Out of my perspective it would be far more important to move in the direction of web-based technologies also in this area. Looking at the success stories of Pharo and our own strategy I do not see the advantages of having multi-touch support for the development of such applications. > > Or did I misinterpret your intention? > > Cheers, > > Chris > > > > > -- > Milan Mimica > http://sparklet.sf.net

Feb. 22, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Netstyle experience (was Do not feed the trolls)

by GermÃ¡n Arduino

Thanks! I will try to start as soon as I can. GermÃ¡n. 2012/2/22 S Krish <krishnamachari.sudhakar(a)gmail.com> > I am willing to contribute to XMLRPC.. Hopefully will integrate a full > fledged interface between Pharo and Groovy and have it run load and atleast > a complete JDBC optimized interface and a pure XMLRpc bridge to the outer > world.. > > So will have inputs and ability to ensure that it stays in shape ahead. I > do not promise porting to Zinc or the likes immediately but may eventually > if it makes a greater performance sense.. > > > On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 6:23 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)beta9.be>wrote: > >> GermÃ¡n, >> >> On 22 Feb 2012, at 13:28, GermÃ¡n Arduino wrote: >> > Example: xmlrpc died before to born, worked only in 1.1.1, now I must >> find time to update it to zinc and 1.3 but with the fear that again will >> not work in 1.4. >> >> I think I said it before (but I can't remember it must be a long time >> ago): I am more than willing to help you port it. I am not a fan of XMLRPC, >> but it is an existing standard that has its place. Furthermore, it was >> designed to be very simple, so it would be a shame to let it rot away. >> >> Sven >> > >

Feb. 22, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Netstyle experience (was Do not feed the trolls)

by GermÃ¡n Arduino

2012/2/22 Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name> > > Am 22.02.2012 um 13:28 schrieb GermÃ¡n Arduino: > > Example: xmlrpc died before to born, worked only in 1.1.1, now I must find > time to update it to zinc and 1.3 but with the fear that again will not > work in 1.4. > > > What are your building blocks except http and xml? If you were working on > 1.1.1 then xml parser moved quite a bit and zinc appeared on the scene. The > changes to adopt xml parser should be minimal. Zinc provides a facade that > mimicks backward compatibility. So you could have an easy start. But to be > honest the situation is soooo much better with having zinc that you might > save some time in development if you use zinc straight away. > And about 1.4: Yes, it moves a lot but zinc and xml do not. Xml is stable > since months and the change rate in zinc is also dropping. So you might > expect them to be available until...let's say...3 months from now. :) Ok, > just kidding, I think the will stay similar for quite some time. > > Norbert > Hi Norbert! Yes, I know that the situation is better with Zinc (I checked the code and really look nice and simple to understand). I only mentioned XMLRPC as a mere example of how the things become unusable so fast. Talking about this what you guys consider best, migrate XMLRPC to 1.3 or directly to 1.4 ? GermÃ¡n.

Feb. 22, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Netstyle experience (was Do not feed the trolls)

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

On Feb 22, 2012, at 9:38 AM, Christoph Wysseier wrote: > Dear Stef > > Am 22.02.12 08:32, schrieb StÃ©phane Ducasse: >> I'm convinced that having support for multitouch event/ genie and others works (for iPad = $$$$) is important. > > Without pretending to know the future, IMHO standalone apps for tablets and mobile will disappear over time. we will see :) I do not have a crystal ball either. Now I can tell you that I'm in contact with a serious company and we are about to release a product on iPad and iPhone in C++ and they do not want to write it in web-based. > Out of my perspective it would be far more important to move in the direction of web-based technologies also in this area. Looking at the success stories of Pharo and our own strategy I do not see the advantages of having multi-touch support for the development of such applications. Now when genie was added to squeak is was a hack because the event loop was not pluggable. Now if people (not me) want to use pharo to build strange interactive devices (again they have to hack to death the system), if hilaire wants to have DrGeo on iPad, same for Fernando with alternate desktop or android desktop. So if we want to give a chance to people to build their own future then we should get a nice infrastructure. > Or did I misinterpret your intention? > > Cheers, > > Chris >

Feb. 22, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Netstyle experience (was Do not feed the trolls)

by GermÃ¡n Arduino

HI Sven, yes I think the same, as soon as I can find a bit of time will port it and will ask any doubt. Thanks for the help offer! 2012/2/22 Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)beta9.be> > GermÃ¡n, > > On 22 Feb 2012, at 13:28, GermÃ¡n Arduino wrote: > > > Example: xmlrpc died before to born, worked only in 1.1.1, now I must > find time to update it to zinc and 1.3 but with the fear that again will > not work in 1.4. > > I think I said it before (but I can't remember it must be a long time > ago): I am more than willing to help you port it. I am not a fan of XMLRPC, > but it is an existing standard that has its place. Furthermore, it was > designed to be very simple, so it would be a shame to let it rot away. > > Sven > -- ============================================ GermÃ¡n S. Arduino <gsa @ arsol.net> Twitter: garduino Arduino Software http://www.arduinosoftware.com PasswordsPro http://www.passwordspro.com greensecure.blogspot.com germanarduino.blogpost.com ============================================

Feb. 22, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Fed up with the troll - my personal response

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Yes we really laugh a lot! Thanks nick for that - so great. When we are depressed now we can press the button. > Hilarious. > > Doru > > On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 1:14 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> :) >> >> El 22/02/2012, a las 8:23a.m., Nick Ager escribiÃ³: >> >> Trolls are so repetitive - it's not difficult to parody them... >> >> http://troller.seasidehosting.st/ >> >> Nick >> >> > > > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "Every thing has its own flow" >

Feb. 22, 2012