February 2012 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Netstyle experience (was Do not feed the trolls)

by Jimmie Houchin

Hello Sudhakar, I totally agree. I believe we can build the future we want. And if we don't, we deserve to get what others provide or envision for us. I believe we can deliver a better experience as a client, and a better developer experience as a server. I personally don't know of anything that approaches Smalltalk for a comprehensive experience. With appropriate funding, we can accomplish great things. And without it, we are better than most. First, we can envision things that others do not have the worldview to be able to envision. It always frustrates me whenever I have to restart an OS, or an app because of some software update. Ugh! Really ..., this is 2012 and we can't do better. I believe Pharo has a great future and I hope to contribute. And the nice thing is, that we can do web apps as well as, or better than others. We also can improve our UI abilities and do better than others there. We can cover both worlds quite well. Just my opinion. Jimmie On 2/22/2012 11:30 AM, S Krish wrote: > Pharo can and does run beautifully on much lesser hardware requirement > than Android does. > > Combine Pharo with tiny core linux or put it on top of Raspberry Pi.. I > am sure for a 128 MB RAM, 256MB Pharo can offer the best experience. > > We may have a need to optimize the performance etc.. but that is work > underway and I am sure in another year we will have something workable. > Even if not, provided a good enterprise funding it can be done in less > time than it took to get Android to shape. > > Future will obviously provide 1GB RAM Tablet at 60$ or less.. but not > visibly in the next couple of years.. We should push for adoption in > these yet available opportunities of linux variants, Raspberry pi to > offer a cleaner / leaner Pharo Kernel. > > As for all the predictions of Web taking over, I have yet to comprehend > Web as a means to have best user experience. It offers a major advantage > of all of the server processing with just the client view presentation > or minimal view code on the browser, but if you look at Gmail with ever > increasing javascript base, the Dart, the HTML 5 elements specially the > sqllite, video tag, canvas, it is just slowly converting browsers to > general purpose presentation engine, with as much power of desktop app. > But this generalization of presentation will remain a compromise. > > I for one do believe that server side focus though is very important for > Pharo, the desktop is where with Morphic cleaned up, multi touch > enabled, Open GL integration, newer paradigm of interactive user > interface blurring the line of dev/ runtime, complete flexibility, > ductile, elastic.. throw in all adjectives it can throw open a totally > new frontier. > > This is all not tablets, multi touch will rule all of large screen > displays in future from banks, hospitals to any place. Useful greatly > for medical presentations, manipulations, but equally usable in > corporate world of the future.. > > Segregate the concept of server side from delivering web browser apps. > That is a bit of enterprise fallacy. Yes nice in social context, but I > do believe its been a marketing overkill to make browsers the default > client for enterprise, but half driven by drabness of widgetry from Java > world and the complexity of the Windows UI toolkit. Still the richness > of widgets on a GUI app is not trifling work to replicate in a web and > we can easily do a client-server app with all the business executed on > the server and / or agent network delivery of parcelled code sections > that clients trade with and complete their tasks. This code section > transfer can be same model as the javascript transfers on a browser. > > Web has as yet not delivered on its promises for Office Suite, even a > comparable email client to Outlook, Thunderbird and others.. it may have > killed also rans of the past but not comparable to feature / capability > of desktop. I doubt if I will ever see MS Office vanish.. perhaps Star > Office is the only alternative but not web really. > > photo viewing the most ubiquitous of web apps, are a pain developing > compared to a morphic app if we indulge ourselves in.. ,Yes it will > require a year or more of effort coming up with ecquvivalents to > javascript libraries.. but when done, or lets say custom done it is > neater, easier , flexible than using those libraries. I do not rate > Picassa as great... at all, with morphic you can have all jazz custom > built as in flash but lot more fun.. > > I forsee, the possibility given a good start up with decent funds, can > work out more out of Morphic in couple of years, that can make desktop > the fun place to be in.. > > Why not think of Pharo on the TV screen/ other such devices to present > all the complex UI's, menu's that are primarily morphic widgets that get > you through to playing the streaming video, disks et all.. but all of > its UI layer can easily be a fun work with Morphic.. it can offer all > the fun of twisting morphs, decorated and intelligent morphs placed/ > floating / animation or whatever is your raging thought.. on these large > screens.. Of course I wish we could ensure perfection in rendering a la > Cuis. for that to be not just fun but perfect. > > Look at all the devices that are in hospitals that do cry for a UI > revamp, I am sure with half decent effort we can make the UI on devices > greater fun..for everyone, the user, the developer and ofcourse the > enterprise making money, than what we see in there. All of PoS apps in > VB and its ilk.. are generation old, > > With my little dev interface I have now cobbled up with three Worlds/ > Panels, I have seen a glint in the eyes of the newbies that they are > working on something ahead of the current world, but the crashes, > glitches do get them doubting..!, which I intend to smoothen and even > cloak around a bit so that they do not feel the rough edges unless they > are experienced smalltalkers to comprehend all of it.

Feb. 22, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] New IDE alternative (was Misc. newbie questions)

by Stefan Marr

On 22 Feb 2012, at 21:52, Frank Shearar wrote: > But I think such a plugin would be missing the point. What I want is > to be able to see a lot more source on my screen than one method at a > time. Do you remember the Whisker Browser a few years ago? It let you > view and edit multiple methods at a time, across multiple classes. > That was pretty neat. You refer to this one? http://www.fit.vutbr.cz/study/courses/OMP/public/software/sqcdrom2/Packages… Cool, but I like the feeling of Newspeaks' one still better (random link with screenshots: http://langexplr.blogspot.com/2009/04/writing-small-twitter-client-with.html) Is there actually anyone who would be interested to break with the Smalltalk's traditional approach? -- Stefan Marr Software Languages Lab Vrije Universiteit Brussel Pleinlaan 2 / B-1050 Brussels / Belgium http://soft.vub.ac.be/~smarr Phone: +32 2 629 2974 Fax: +32 2 629 3525

Feb. 22, 2012

[Pharo-project] fun with NBOpenGL

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Igor coded with me one hour to show me step by step how to produce a rotating pyramid in Pharo :) Have fun (igor will update the configurationOfNBOpenGL to load the latest file).

Feb. 22, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Netstyle experience (was Do not feed the trolls)

by Marcus Denker

On Feb 22, 2012, at 10:02 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > what kind of devices are using raspberry pi? No devices. It's a board (no case) of a small linux computer for $35. The board surface has the size of a credit card. http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/382 > I would like to see the physical size of such devices. this gives a feel: http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/422 -- Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de

Feb. 22, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Netstyle experience (was Do not feed the trolls)

by GermÃ¡n Arduino

2012/2/22 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> > > > Now I code in 1.4 most of my time. > > Thanks, this is a response to me :)

Feb. 22, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Netstyle experience (was Do not feed the trolls)

by GermÃ¡n Arduino

2012/2/22 Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name> > Hi Norbert! > > Yes, I know that the situation is better with Zinc (I checked the code and > really look nice and simple to understand). I only mentioned XMLRPC as a > mere example of how the things become unusable so fast. > > Talking about this what you guys consider best, migrate XMLRPC to 1.3 or > directly to 1.4 ? > > I don't think it makes a huge difference. As long as 1.4 is not to be > released soon it would be better to port it to 1.3. This way people can use > it. But honestly I think you develop it against zinc and xml parser. Zinc > has been updated in 1.3 lately but I don't know if it is the newest stuff. > Sven knows it. > > Norbert > Yes, I asked mainly already knowing that I'm slow with these stuff, because I have almost not free time. GermÃ¡n. -- ============================================ GermÃ¡n S. Arduino <gsa @ arsol.net> Twitter: garduino Arduino Software http://www.arduinosoftware.com PasswordsPro http://www.passwordspro.com greensecure.blogspot.com germanarduino.blogpost.com ============================================

Feb. 22, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Netstyle experience (was Do not feed the trolls)

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

> > > > Hi Norbert! > > Yes, I know that the situation is better with Zinc (I checked the code and really look nice and simple to understand). I only mentioned XMLRPC as a mere example of how the things become unusable so fast. > > Talking about this what you guys consider best, migrate XMLRPC to 1.3 or directly to 1.4 ? There should be not that much difference for XML and Zinc API between 1.3 and 1.4 (even if Zinc changes much more than XML. Now I code in 1.4 most of my time. > > GermÃ¡n. >

Feb. 22, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Netstyle experience (was Do not feed the trolls)

by Milan Mimica

On 22 February 2012 21:44, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr>wrote: > > > Pharo is an IDE. IDEs don't run on tablets. > > But open your eyes. Pharo is much more than an ide. > Exactly. And Squeak is even more than Pharo, but more is not better. I think we should focus and there is still too many opinions of what Pharo should be. Some try to pull in OpenGL interface, some would like to improve the headless mode, some use it as a web platform. Most efforts will go to waste. Pharo cannot possibly be that much. -- Milan Mimica http://sparklet.sf.net

Feb. 22, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Netstyle experience (was Do not feed the trolls)

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

what kind of devices are using raspberry pi? I would like to see the physical size of such devices. On Feb 22, 2012, at 6:30 PM, S Krish wrote: > tiny core linux or put it on top of Raspberry Pi.. I am sure for a 128 MB RAM, 256MB Pharo can offer the best experience.

Feb. 22, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Netstyle experience (was Do not feed the trolls)

by Norbert Hartl

Am 22.02.2012 um 21:41 schrieb GermÃ¡n Arduino <garduino(a)gmail.com>: > > > 2012/2/22 Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name> > > Am 22.02.2012 um 13:28 schrieb GermÃ¡n Arduino: > >> Example: xmlrpc died before to born, worked only in 1.1.1, now I must find time to update it to zinc and 1.3 but with the fear that again will not work in 1.4. > > What are your building blocks except http and xml? If you were working on 1.1.1 then xml parser moved quite a bit and zinc appeared on the scene. The changes to adopt xml parser should be minimal. Zinc provides a facade that mimicks backward compatibility. So you could have an easy start. But to be honest the situation is soooo much better with having zinc that you might save some time in development if you use zinc straight away. > And about 1.4: Yes, it moves a lot but zinc and xml do not. Xml is stable since months and the change rate in zinc is also dropping. So you might expect them to be available until...let's say...3 months from now. :) Ok, just kidding, I think the will stay similar for quite some time. > > Norbert > > > Hi Norbert! > > Yes, I know that the situation is better with Zinc (I checked the code and really look nice and simple to understand). I only mentioned XMLRPC as a mere example of how the things become unusable so fast. > > Talking about this what you guys consider best, migrate XMLRPC to 1.3 or directly to 1.4 ? > I don't think it makes a huge difference. As long as 1.4 is not to be released soon it would be better to port it to 1.3. This way people can use it. But honestly I think you develop it against zinc and xml parser. Zinc has been updated in 1.3 lately but I don't know if it is the newest stuff. Sven knows it. Norbert

Feb. 22, 2012