February 2012 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] New IDE alternative (was Misc. newbie questions)

by Tudor Girba

On 22 Feb 2012, at 22:12, Stefan Marr wrote: > Is there actually anyone who would be interested to break with the Smalltalk's traditional approach? Of course, there is :). Even more than that. As I announced several times before, I would be interested in collaborating and synchronizing the efforts around the IDE. I believe there is a large potential for innovation in this space. Because this is a large topic, the idea was to organize a so called TaskForce to be able to cope with the problem in the large. So, if someone is interested in such a collaboration, please announce your intention. Cheers, Doru -- www.tudorgirba.com "Be rather willing to give than demanding to get."

Feb. 23, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Netstyle experience (was Do not feed the trolls)

by S Krish

"Web technologies bring some advantages in the software life cycle, mainly distribution." Very succint. Not to deprecate a great technical development over the years, that makes even complete non techies capable of using the computer, which desktop GUI does not enable easily, applet was a compromise but did not scale well. But its an overkill fed into enterprise mainstream, which actually do have IT depts and ability to manage an automated client update/ installations. Server side of the web tech is great and should be the mainstay for a re-imagined desktop client and bring back iPad like UI experience to the desktop, tablet et als. On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 3:30 AM, Andreas Wacknitz <A.Wacknitz(a)gmx.de> wrote: > > Am 22.02.2012 um 10:34 schrieb Janko MivÅ¡ek: > > > S, Christoph Wysseier piÅ¡e: > > > >> StÃ©phane Ducasse: > > > >>> I'm convinced that having support for multitouch event/ genie and > >>> others works (for iPad = $$$$) is important. > > > >> Without pretending to know the future, IMHO standalone apps for tablets > >> and mobile will disappear over time. Out of my perspective it would be > >> far more important to move in the direction of web-based technologies > >> also in this area. Looking at the success stories of Pharo and our own > >> strategy I do not see the advantages of having multi-touch support for > >> the development of such applications. > > > > I agree completely that web based techologies are where we should go > > because we have advantage here with Smalltalk while for any kind of GUI > > we are off. > [stuff deleted] > > I like Smalltalk the language for its orthogonality and power. If I hear a > statement > like "we should go <enter hype term here> because its the future!" I have > the feeling > that somebody wants some followers on his or her main area of interest. > > Web technologies bring some advantages in the software life cycle, mainly > distribution. > But they put additional burden in the GUI development because it's more > complicated than traditional GUI's. > Thus, you'll need a bigger user base for your application to make it worth > the additional efforts in development. > Additionally there are some areas where web GUI didn't catch up with > traditional GUI's at all. > > Regards > Andreas

Feb. 23, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] New IDE alternative (was Misc. newbie questions)

by S Krish

On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 3:33 AM, Frank Shearar <frank.shearar(a)gmail.com>wrote: > On 22 February 2012 21:12, Stefan Marr <smalltalk(a)stefan-marr.de> wrote: > > > > On 22 Feb 2012, at 21:52, Frank Shearar wrote: > > > >> But I think such a plugin would be missing the point. What I want is > >> to be able to see a lot more source on my screen than one method at a > >> time. Do you remember the Whisker Browser a few years ago? It let you > >> view and edit multiple methods at a time, across multiple classes. > >> That was pretty neat. > > > > You refer to this one? > http://www.fit.vutbr.cz/study/courses/OMP/public/software/sqcdrom2/Packages… > > > > Cool, but I like the feeling of Newspeaks' one still better (random link > with screenshots: > http://langexplr.blogspot.com/2009/04/writing-small-twitter-client-with.html > ) > > I confess I find the Brazil browser deeply confusing and, when I > started getting the hang of it, found it even more "pinhole-y" than > the standard browser. I started a project to build a SLIME-like REPL > to a running Newspeak image, but I've so far merely written a minor > mode (https://github.com/frankshearar/newspeak-mode) I will at some > point pick up that work again. > > > Is there actually anyone who would be interested to break with the > Smalltalk's traditional approach? > > Well, me! One thing that would make my life considerably easier is a > MessageSet-like browser that "flattened" the methods, so they were > displayed one above the other - simulating a text file, in other > words. So many times I want to look at how a set of classes implement > some method. > > +1 exactly my sentiment.. > frank > > > -- > > Stefan Marr > > Software Languages Lab > > Vrije Universiteit Brussel > > Pleinlaan 2 / B-1050 Brussels / Belgium > > http://soft.vub.ac.be/~smarr > > Phone: +32 2 629 2974 > > Fax: +32 2 629 3525 > > > > > >

Feb. 23, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Netstyle experience (was Do not feed the trolls)

by GermÃ¡n Arduino

Thanks Sven, you inject me the desire of put hands on the stuff asap, but unfortunately, need to end other things first (business related things I mean). Thanks really! 2012/2/22 Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)beta9.be> > > -- > Sven Van Caekenberghe > http://stfx.eu > Smalltalk is the Red Pill > > > > > On 22 Feb 2012, at 22:04, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > > >> Hi Norbert! > >> > >> Yes, I know that the situation is better with Zinc (I checked the code > and really look nice and simple to understand). I only mentioned XMLRPC as > a mere example of how the things become unusable so fast. > >> > >> Talking about this what you guys consider best, migrate XMLRPC to 1.3 > or directly to 1.4 ? > > > > > > There should be not that much difference for XML and Zinc API between > 1.3 and 1.4 (even if Zinc changes much more than XML. > > > > Now I code in 1.4 most of my time. > > > >> > >> GermÃ¡n. > >> > > > > Normally you would write XMLRPC against Zinc HTTP Components and XML > Support, both are working fine on 1.3 and 1.4. Pharo 1.3 is released and in > that sense more stable (as in predictable and not changing as much), but > 1.4 has much more of the latest features/fixes and is generally more fun > (but you'll be living on the edge). > > Here is an XMLRPC call without the infrastructure of generating/parsing > the proper XML: > > | call | > call := '<?xml version="1.0"?> > <methodCall> > <methodName>examples.getStateName</methodName> > <params> > <param> > <value><i4>41</i4></value> > </param> > </params> > </methodCall>'. > ZnClient new > url: 'http://www.cookcomputing.com/xmlrpcsamples/RPC2.ashx'; > entity: (ZnEntity with: call type: ZnMimeType applicationXml); > post. > > Regards, > > Sven > > > > > -- ============================================ GermÃ¡n S. Arduino <gsa @ arsol.net> Twitter: garduino Arduino Software http://www.arduinosoftware.com PasswordsPro http://www.passwordspro.com greensecure.blogspot.com germanarduino.blogpost.com ============================================

Feb. 22, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Netstyle experience (was Do not feed the trolls)

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

-- Sven Van Caekenberghe http://stfx.eu Smalltalk is the Red Pill On 22 Feb 2012, at 22:04, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: >> Hi Norbert! >> >> Yes, I know that the situation is better with Zinc (I checked the code and really look nice and simple to understand). I only mentioned XMLRPC as a mere example of how the things become unusable so fast. >> >> Talking about this what you guys consider best, migrate XMLRPC to 1.3 or directly to 1.4 ? > > > There should be not that much difference for XML and Zinc API between 1.3 and 1.4 (even if Zinc changes much more than XML. > > Now I code in 1.4 most of my time. > >> >> GermÃ¡n. >> > Normally you would write XMLRPC against Zinc HTTP Components and XML Support, both are working fine on 1.3 and 1.4. Pharo 1.3 is released and in that sense more stable (as in predictable and not changing as much), but 1.4 has much more of the latest features/fixes and is generally more fun (but you'll be living on the edge). Here is an XMLRPC call without the infrastructure of generating/parsing the proper XML: | call | call := '<?xml version="1.0"?> <methodCall> <methodName>examples.getStateName</methodName> <params> <param> <value><i4>41</i4></value> </param> </params> </methodCall>'. ZnClient new url: 'http://www.cookcomputing.com/xmlrpcsamples/RPC2.ashx'; entity: (ZnEntity with: call type: ZnMimeType applicationXml); post. Regards, Sven

Feb. 22, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] fun with NBOpenGL

by Lawson English

Thanks for that code, StÃ©phane. I'll work up a video tutorial on it once Igor gets his next configuration* set. L. On 2/22/12 2:11 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > Igor coded with me one hour to show me step by step how to produce a rotating pyramid in Pharo :) > > Have fun (igor will update the configurationOfNBOpenGL to load the latest file). > > >

Feb. 22, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Netstyle experience (was Do not feed the trolls)

by GermÃ¡n Arduino

hehe, well, I say in the sense that it's greatly possible that 1.4 is released BEFORE I can even write a single line of the new xmlrpc... :) 2012/2/22 Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name> > > > Am 22.02.2012 um 22:06 schrieb GermÃ¡n Arduino <garduino(a)gmail.com>: > > > > 2012/2/22 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> > >> >> > Now I code in 1.4 most of my time. >> >> Thanks, this is a response to me :) > > > Don't forget that Steph is the counter type of your potential audience. So > don't follow him but do the opposite :) > > Norbert >

Feb. 22, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] New IDE alternative (was Misc. newbie questions)

by Frank Shearar

On 22 February 2012 21:12, Stefan Marr <smalltalk(a)stefan-marr.de> wrote: > > On 22 Feb 2012, at 21:52, Frank Shearar wrote: > >> But I think such a plugin would be missing the point. What I want is >> to be able to see a lot more source on my screen than one method at a >> time. Do you remember the Whisker Browser a few years ago? It let you >> view and edit multiple methods at a time, across multiple classes. >> That was pretty neat. > > You refer to this one? http://www.fit.vutbr.cz/study/courses/OMP/public/software/sqcdrom2/Packages… > > Cool, but I like the feeling of Newspeaks' one still better (random link with screenshots: http://langexplr.blogspot.com/2009/04/writing-small-twitter-client-with.html) I confess I find the Brazil browser deeply confusing and, when I started getting the hang of it, found it even more "pinhole-y" than the standard browser. I started a project to build a SLIME-like REPL to a running Newspeak image, but I've so far merely written a minor mode (https://github.com/frankshearar/newspeak-mode) I will at some point pick up that work again. > Is there actually anyone who would be interested to break with the Smalltalk's traditional approach? Well, me! One thing that would make my life considerably easier is a MessageSet-like browser that "flattened" the methods, so they were displayed one above the other - simulating a text file, in other words. So many times I want to look at how a set of classes implement some method. frank > -- > Stefan Marr > Software Languages Lab > Vrije Universiteit Brussel > Pleinlaan 2 / B-1050 Brussels / Belgium > http://soft.vub.ac.be/~smarr > Phone: +32 2 629 2974 > Fax: Â +32 2 629 3525 > >

Feb. 22, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Netstyle experience (was Do not feed the trolls)

by Andreas Wacknitz

Am 22.02.2012 um 10:34 schrieb Janko MivÅ¡ek: > S, Christoph Wysseier piÅ¡e: > >> StÃ©phane Ducasse: > >>> I'm convinced that having support for multitouch event/ genie and >>> others works (for iPad = $$$$) is important. > >> Without pretending to know the future, IMHO standalone apps for tablets >> and mobile will disappear over time. Out of my perspective it would be >> far more important to move in the direction of web-based technologies >> also in this area. Looking at the success stories of Pharo and our own >> strategy I do not see the advantages of having multi-touch support for >> the development of such applications. > > I agree completely that web based techologies are where we should go > because we have advantage here with Smalltalk while for any kind of GUI > we are off. [stuff deleted] I like Smalltalk the language for its orthogonality and power. If I hear a statement like "we should go <enter hype term here> because its the future!" I have the feeling that somebody wants some followers on his or her main area of interest. Web technologies bring some advantages in the software life cycle, mainly distribution. But they put additional burden in the GUI development because it's more complicated than traditional GUI's. Thus, you'll need a bigger user base for your application to make it worth the additional efforts in development. Additionally there are some areas where web GUI didn't catch up with traditional GUI's at all. Regards Andreas

Feb. 22, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Netstyle experience (was Do not feed the trolls)

by Norbert Hartl

Am 22.02.2012 um 22:06 schrieb GermÃ¡n Arduino <garduino(a)gmail.com>: > > > 2012/2/22 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> > > > Now I code in 1.4 most of my time. > > Thanks, this is a response to me :) Don't forget that Steph is the counter type of your potential audience. So don't follow him but do the opposite :) Norbert

Feb. 22, 2012